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The inevitable end result of our last 56 years


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2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Ben,

     What concerns me is whether the American public will get an honest, accurate appraisal of the 20 year Afghanistan War fiasco, including Trump's negotiations with the Taliban last year to end the U.S. occupation.

     I'm not one to blame Trump or Biden for trying to get us out of the quagmire, but many people, including Trump, are already trying to pin the blame on the donkey.  It's disingenuous.

    The other thing I fear is an Afghanistan "Rambo Syndrome"-- i.e., people claiming that we could have "won" the occupation of Afghanistan with more bombs, more cajones, etc.  It's the wrong historical lesson.

    Geez... How many tons of ordnance did we already drop to bomb Afghanistan back to the Stone Age?

Oh, not even just Afghanistan. Have you ever seen photos of Raqqa, Syria? Or Fallujah, Iraq? Evidently, turning a town into rubble is an option. 

Let alone the 270 million cluster bombs left behind in Laos (yes, million). 

There is a new standard since Korea: A war must be fantastically expensive but counterproductive, and the outcome of little consequence to real American prosperity. The trifecta. 

Trump gets some credit, and Biden the lion's share for getting out of a losing situation. If the US really gets out. 

Yes. No doubt US soldiers will be lionized for decades to come for their exploits in the Mideast---the globalist mantra from Hollywood. No, I do not blame individual soldiers. Smart and tough, caught in a bad situation. 

But the leadership....

Speaking of the media, the WaPo has never run a op-ed that spending $6 trillion in Iraqistan is an example of white supremacy and racism and empire-building, as that money could have been spent at home making US cities safe and prosperous. That line of reasoning actually makes some sense. 

But those lulus who over-ran the Capitol....

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Ben,

     What concerns me is whether the American public will get an honest, accurate appraisal of the 20 year Afghanistan War fiasco, including Trump's negotiations with the Taliban last year to end the U.S. occupation.

     I'm not one to blame Trump or Biden for trying to get us out of the quagmire, but many people, including Trump, are already trying to pin the blame on the donkey.  It's disingenuous.

    The other thing I fear is an Afghanistan "Rambo Syndrome"-- i.e., people claiming that we could have "won" the occupation of Afghanistan with more bombs, more cajones, etc.  It's the wrong historical lesson.

    Geez... How many tons of ordnance did we already drop to bomb Afghanistan back to the Stone Age?

W: I'm not one to blame Trump or Biden for trying to get us out of the quagmire,

Trump trying to get us out of the quagmire?? If he wanted to, he could have, in his first year in office  back in 2017, just like Biden did. Whatever Trump's rhetoric, in the end he's  blaming the withdrawal on the Democrats. That tells you how sincere he was about pulling out of Afghanistan. Just as the increased Intelligence and Defense budgets under Trump.

W: What concerns me is whether the American public will get an honest, accurate appraisal of the 20 year Afghanistan War fiasco,

"Honest, accurate appraisal?" In the final analysis, most people can see it's a 20 year war, that's probably going to end in images similar to the fleeing from Saigon in 1975. That's not going to be perceived as successful.

As far as the "Rambo syndrone": The case that we could have bombed our way to victory as some alleged in Vietnam is not going to be swallowed in such a disfragmented ,tribal country and culture that foreign powers  have been warring over for centuries.  People aren't, at least that stupid. After 1975, Jimmy Carter had a very peaceful administration. Why?, in part it was Carter, and in part, because people didn't want to go war. Then Reagan got in, and it gradually escalated, Beirut , Grenada, bombing Khadaffy, escalating to Iran contra etc..

In the future, the choice to not fight is always there. Keep in mind, the Democrats in the house voted solidly opposing going to war in Iraq. Now we've finally got a few right leaning people who have abandoned the neocons.

Edited by Kirk Gallaway
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7 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 

Speaking of the media, the WaPo has never run a op-ed that spending >>>>> $6 trillion  <<<<< in Iraqistan ............... that money could have been spent at home making US cities safe and prosperous. 

This fact explains the main reason America has fallen so low in the standard of living ratings of all the industrialized nations.

We spend the majority of our financial resources on military muscle.

And include trillions more on black budget ( no oversight ) expenditures.

And it's been this way every year since the end of WW II.

Tens of millions of Americans struggling in every way for decades ... but the excuse is always ...we just don't have the money?

With just "1/3rd" the military/black budget monies the last 70 years, we could have free 4 year college for everyone wanting this, really good national health care including dental and mental health care, new schools and hospitals everywhere, tens of millions of good paying and benefited jobs, gotten millions of drug damaged children the help they need, massive infrastructure rebuilding ( including cities and poor states ) with millions of good jobs, revitalization of our rail system including passenger systems, saving all that car and jet fuel use and pollution, a great senior rest home and child care rebuilding and system...and on and on and on.

We are and have been since the 1950s ... a super military rich and shamefully society needs poor nation.

It's like parents with lots of children spending 2/3rds of the family income on muscle building equipment, home defense weapons, security cameras and detectors, mean guard dogs, self-defense and even aggressive offensive attack classes ... all while their kids and their kids basic needs are unmet to shameful degrees. 

Talk about mixed up, negligent and even paranoid priorities!

But that's America.  

Way down the list on the world standard of living rating system...but baby, we got the meanest and most f---ing powerful military and secret government forces than any other country on this Earth ...so don't any of you mess with us.

Who cares if tens of millions of our citizens including our young people and our older people are hurting with way too many of their most important basic needs unmet. Our muscle might is what's important, not our citizenry and their needs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

W: I'm not one to blame Trump or Biden for trying to get us out of the quagmire,

Trump trying to get us out of the quagmire?? If he wanted to, he could have, in his first year in office  back in 2017, just like Biden did. Whatever Trump's rhetoric, in the end he's  blaming the withdrawal on the Democrats. That tells you how sincere he was about pulling out of Afghanistan. Just as the increased Intelligence and Defense budgets under Trump.

W: What concerns me is whether the American public will get an honest, accurate appraisal of the 20 year Afghanistan War fiasco,

"Honest, accurate appraisal?" In the final analysis, most people can see it's a 20 year war, that's probably going to end in images similar to the fleeing from Saigon in 1975. That's not going to be perceived as successful.

As far as the "Rambo syndrone": The case that we could have bombed our way to victory as some alleged in Vietnam is not going to be swallowed in such a disfragmented ,tribal country and culture that foreign powers  have been warring over for centuries.  People aren't, at least that stupid. After 1975, Jimmy Carter had a very peaceful administration. Why?, in part it was Carter, and in part, because people didn't want to go war. Then Reagan got in, and it gradually escalated, Beirut , Grenada, bombing Khadaffy, escalating to Iran contra etc..

In the future, the choice to not fight is always there. Keep in mind, the Democrats in the house voted solidly opposing going to war in Iraq. Now we've finally got a few right leaning people who have abandoned the neocons.

Kirk,

      Unfortunately, I sometimes visit a less scholarly forum where many Republicans are already blaming Joe Biden for the outcome of Bush and Cheney's 20 year war in Afghanistan.  I mentioned "not blaming Trump and Biden for getting the U.S. out of the quagmire" in order to emphasize that it's absurd to fob the fall of Afghanistan off on Joe Biden.

   

Edited by W. Niederhut
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Addendum:  And, right on cue, Kirk, here's Rupert Murdoch's Wall Street Journal this morning --blaming Biden for Trump's 2020 Afghanistan withdrawal treaty with the Taliban.

I predict we'll see a lot of this propaganda from the right wing media during the next few years.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-s-afghanistan-exit-raises-questions-about-his-foreign-policy-record/ar-AANlnMb?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

Edited by W. Niederhut
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President Ghani of Afghanistan has now fled the capital leaving it completely open for the Taliban.

*******

Absolutely right W.  As I said, Biden was going to take a lot of heat for this. It's sort of a cheap shot that the Republicans and the media are delivering. You notice none of them are coming out for a massive military action to fight back one last time to salvage the 20 years. Though Biden's going to send more troops to assist in evacuation, which is technically a blunder that they'll also thrash him for.

A President does this in the first year of office, so he has plenty of time to recover in the next 3 years. In the case of Biden, he's hoping his covid relief package, infrastructure bill and relative vaccination success, (most people understand Biden's not going to hold much sway over people who simply refuse to get vaccinated) offset the 20 year foreign policy embarrassment.

Trump could have done this in his first year and won some begrudging approval from Democrats and would have looked brilliant with Middle America for breaking up the "stalemate" in Washington. But despite his campaign rhetoric, he didn't.

Obama, if he had listened to Biden, could have also and lay the historic responsibility of these occupations where it belongs, on the Republicans, who initiated them. But he ended saddling the Democrats to another pro war party, which is a perception with a sizable number of people, that lasts to this day.

Edited by Kirk Gallaway
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1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

President Ghani of Afghanistan has now fled the capital leaving it completely open for the Taliban.

*******

Absolutely right W.  As I said, Biden was going to take a lot of heat for this. It's sort of a cheap shot that the Republicans and the media are delivering. You notice none of them are coming out for a massive military action to fight back one last time to salvage the 20 years. Though Biden's going to send more troops to assist in evacuation, which is technically a blunder that they'll also thrash him for.

A President does this in the first year of office, so he has plenty of time to recover in the next 3 years. In the case of Biden, he's hoping his covid relief package, infrastructure bill and relative vaccination success, (most people understand Biden's not going to hold much sway over people who simply refuse to get vaccinated) offset the 20 year foreign policy embarrassment.

Trump could have done this in his first year and won some begrudging approval from Democrats and would have looked brilliant with Middle America for breaking up the "stalemate" in Washington. But despite his campaign rhetoric, he didn't.

Obama, if he had listened to Biden, could have also and lay the historic responsibility of these occupations where it belongs, on the Republicans, who initiated them. But he ended saddling the Democrats to another pro war party, which is a perception with a sizable number of people, that lasts to this day.

Kirk,

       I'm thinking back on Robert Gates' memoir, where he wrote that Obama had "consistently made the correct calls in Afghanistan."  But to what end?  A decade and another $1 trillion later, the U.S. puppet regime in Afghanistan has collapsed like a sand castle at high tide.  Should we have propped it up indefinitely?

      Rumsfeld started with a popular cluster bomb campaign over there in 2001 but never succeeded in establishing a viable government and army to fill the power vacuum that he created.

      Two years later, when Bush and Cheney were hellbent on invading Iraq, Colin Powell famously cited his "Pottery Barn Rule" to Dubya-- "Mr. President, if you break Iraq, you own it."

       Obviously, the same thing was true about Afghanistan.  We broke it, then owned it for the past 20 years.

      

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4 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Kirk,

       I'm thinking back on Robert Gates' memoir, where he wrote that Obama had "consistently made the correct calls in Afghanistan."  But to what end?  A decade and another $1 trillion later, the U.S. puppet regime in Afghanistan has collapsed like a sand castle at high tide.  Should we have propped it up indefinitely?

      Rumsfeld started with a popular cluster bomb campaign over there in 2001 but never succeeded in establishing a viable government and army to fill the power vacuum that he created.

      Two years later, when Bush and Cheney were hellbent on invading Iraq, Colin Powell famously cited his "Pottery Barn Rule" to Dubya-- "Mr. President, if you break Iraq, you own it."

       Obviously, the same thing was true about Afghanistan.  We broke it, then owned it for the past 20 years.

      

I'm not well read on world politics.  Just regarding reading on JFK in recent years I had to google Indonesia, I knew it was somewhere in South East Asia.  Same with the Congo to locate it on a map, see major cities, though I knew it was somewhere in Africa.  What I wonder about Afghanistan is didn't we learn anything from Russia?  (kind of like maybe the French and Vietnam).  

Reading up a little on their occupation/war/withdrawal it seems they didn't make them into communists or stop the infighting.  They really started in 1955, then all the way into the 80's.

Maybe we did learn, kind of like from the French.  A way to feed the war machine, the military industrial complex per Ike?

Milestones: 1977–1980 - Office of the Historian (state.gov) 

If a country can't run itself without simply slaughtering it's citizens to maintain control, isn't that maybe a job for say the United Nations?  I don't pretend to know these things.  

Edited by Ron Bulman
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20 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

I'm not well read on world politics.  Just regarding reading on JFK in recent years I had to google Indonesia, I knew it was somewhere in South East Asia.  Same with the Congo to locate it on a map, see major cities, though I knew it was somewhere in Africa.  What I wonder about Afghanistan is didn't we learn anything from Russia?  (kind of like maybe the French and Vietnam).  

Reading up a little on their occupation/war/withdrawal it seems they didn't make them into communists or stop the infighting.  They really started in 1955, then all the way into the 80's.

Maybe we did learn, kind of like from the French.  A way to feed the war machine, the military industrial complex per Ike?

Milestones: 1977–1980 - Office of the Historian (state.gov)  

Ron,

     Do we ever learn from our huge policy mistakes here in the U.S.-- Vietnam, Iraq, trickle down economics, etc.?

     During the 2004 Presidential debates, Jim Lehrer asked George W. Bush and John Kerry what they believed to be "the lessons of Vietnam."  (We were bogged down in a protracted occupation of Iraq at the time.)  Dubya ducked the question.

     That's part of what concerns me about the current Afghanistan fiasco.

     Will politicians and the mainstream U.S. media try to inform the public about our 20 year Afghanistan boondoggle, or will they mainly focus on bashing Joe Biden about the final inglorious epilogue?

     Or worse, will we start hearing a bunch of Rambo mythology about how Biden could have "won the war" if he had only blown up more villages?

    

Edited by W. Niederhut
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$2TRN spent on the Afghan War 

240k lives lost 

The objective was never to win, only to keep it going and make it last, for purely profit reasons. Tax payer pays for it, private corps pick up the profits and want it to last as long as possible. 

Defence contractors funding the blue & the red team, election after election. 

https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?Ind=D

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/social/corporate

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/39092315

Major General Smedley Butler’s “War is a racket” is as relevant as its ever been. 

As for Vietnam, it was the same thing. The war cost $120BN.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/06/namric-antiwar-research-vietnam-war

https://www.counterpunch.org/2003/12/11/war-profiteering-from-vietnam-to-iraq/

The media won’t inform us, as it makes it harder to pull the wool over our eyes and play the trick again. 

 

 

 

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Biden, the State Department and the Pentagon will be all blamed for this historic disaster and deservedly so.

The next Gallup Poll will not be kind to Biden.  His whole agenda is now in jeopardy.  

This could have been easily avoided. Rachel Maddow sounded the alarm five weeks ago and brought guests on her show to emphasize the imminent peril. I and my friends talked about it and were worried. The morale of the Democratic Party's rank and file will suffer greatly. 

I am both outraged and sickened by this development. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

Biden, the State Department and the Pentagon will be all blamed for this historic disaster and deservedly so.

The next Gallup Poll will not be kind to Biden.  His whole agenda is now in jeopardy.  

This could have been easily avoided. Rachel Maddow sounded the alarm five weeks ago and brought guests on her show to emphasize the imminent peril. I and my friends talked about it and were worried. The morale of the Democratic Party's rank and file will suffer greatly. 

I am both outraged and sickened by this development. 

 

 

Give Rachel Maddow some jodhpurs and high black boots. She wants her big epalauts. 

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