The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Matt Allison]

Ben seems very concerned about the nebulous "National Security State", yet oddly unaffected by the guy that goes around poisoning people that speak truth to his power...

[W. Niederhut]

Jeff,

     You've, obviously, mastered the "Firehose of Falsehoods" propaganda technique.  I'll try to mop up your Russiagate Denial mess, once again, but this is getting old.  Herewith.  My responses in red.

Frum , at best, has assembled a laundry list of “talking points” rather than “facts”. He explicitly bemoans that professional journalists are now carving up the basic premises of “Russiagate”, particularly as new information regarding its origins is uncovered. Looks like the final redoubt - the Alamo of the true believers - is the Senate Subcommittee Report which, as noted at the time of its release, is an extremely poor product characterized by unsupported allegations and weak speculations.

Bunk.  Frum is calling foul on the latest right wing propaganda about Bill Barr's Durham investigation nothing burger.   And he is, specifically, referring to the documented facts from the Senate Intel Committee Report about Trump's enmeshment with Russian oligarchs, and Kremlin/GRU meddling in the 2016 U.S. election on behalf of their Orange Asset, Donald Trump.

Frum’s “indisputable facts” wither on examination:

1-3. Entirely irrelevant. It was not illegal for Americans to have contact or business with citizens from the Russian Federation. The Trump Tower deal was almost entirely the initiative of Felix Sater - nothing was built, no money was exchanged.

Felix Sater was a long-term business associate of Trump, who said in 2015 that Putin intended to put Trump in the White House.  And, yes, Trump lied publicly about his Moscow Trump Tower plans in 2016.  That, alone, created significant kompromat for Putin-- which could be leveraged for strategic foreign policy concessions by his Orange Asset.  He had Trump over several barrels.

4 - The Committee do not possess any kind of intercept revealing any kind of Putin directive authorizing any kind of operation directed at US politicians. They instead utilize backward reasoning i.e. the emails were purloined by a “GRU hack” (a contentious supposition to begin with), therefore Putin “must have” ordered it.

More bunk.  Let's recall that the Republicans in control of that committee were doing everything in their power to deny and minimize the evidence of Kremlin meddling in the 2016 election-- and they still concluded that it happened.  BTW, how do you know what classified intel they relied on?  Explain.

 

6 - The offer of “harmful information” was a pretence to arrange a meeting about other matters. The Trump campaign may have desired “dirt” on their opponent, but clearly so did their opponent want dirt on them, and was much more successful in obtaining it. The Russian lawyer also dined with associates of Clinton (Fusion GPS) at the same time.

Is it illegal for a U.S. Presidential campaign to seek foreign assistance?  Geez... even Steve Bannon said that the Trump Tower meeting with Veselnitskaya was treasonous.

8 - Roger Stone had at best extremely limited communications with Wikileaks representatives, and his “predictions” were merely the repetition of publicly available open source information.

Nice sleight of hand, Jeff.  You managed to dodge the fact that Roger Stone bragged about dining with Assange in London-- around the time that he boasted about Hillary soon being in a barrel.

10 - Manafort’s longtime right-hand man Kilimnik worked over a decade for an offshoot of the NED in Moscow, and was a valued information source for the US Embassy in Kiev. Neither Mueller or the Senate Subcommittee has been able to actually explain what they think he did, not has it been revealed what exactly led to his designation of “Russian intelligence officer”. Kilimnik, as well as most persons who knew or worked with him, denies the allegation.

You're still pushing the canard that Kilimnik is not a GRU agent, eh, Jeff?  If Manafort had nothing to hide about his collusion with Kilimnik, why did he lie about it repeatedly during the Mueller investigation-- even after he agreed to cooperate with Mueller, as part of his plea bargain?

Here, you're trying to argue that Manafort stonewalling the investigation of his contacts with Kilimnik is evidence of Kilimnik's innocence!  It's an absurd argument.

11 - Policies associated with the Trump campaign “supporting Putin” were based on a notion of turning the Russians towards the US and away from China, so as to better pursue a Cold War against the latter - as was clearly articulated by those involved in promoting these notions in the weeks ahead of the Republican convention.

The Manafort-led Trump Campaign altered the RNC platform (in Cleveland) on U.S. policy in Ukraine.  Talk about your quid pro quo!  And Trump, repeatedly, kow-towed to Putin during his tenure in the White House-- most notoriously in Helsinki, where he denied before a worldwide audience that Putin had meddled in the U.S. election.  Even before taking office in December of 2016, Michael Flynn conferred with Sergei Lavrov about undermining U.S. sanctions imposed on Putin for meddling in our 2016 election...

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by W. Niederhut

[Dennis Berube]

https://nypost.com/2021/11/29/joe-biden-expected-10-percent-cut-in-deal-with-a-chinese-giant/
 

I am sure the MSM will be talking about this for 5 years and help congress spend millions on a vigorous criminal investigation, just like they did with Trump….

 

…or they will ignore it completely and continue the mandated ignorance of an entire political party too scared to exercise their fleeting freedom of speech as technocratic slavery marches on in the predictable name of safety through petty puppet criminals like Biden and Fauci. 

[Jeff Carter]

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Jeff,

     You've, obviously, mastered the "Firehose of Falsehoods" propaganda technique.  I'll try to mop up your Russiagate Denial mess, once again, but this is getting old.  Herewith.  My responses in red.

Frum , at best, has assembled a laundry list of “talking points” rather than “facts”. He explicitly bemoans that professional journalists are now carving up the basic premises of “Russiagate”, particularly as new information regarding its origins is uncovered. Looks like the final redoubt - the Alamo of the true believers - is the Senate Subcommittee Report which, as noted at the time of its release, is an extremely poor product characterized by unsupported allegations and weak speculations.

Bunk.  Frum is calling foul on the latest right wing propaganda about Bill Barr's Durham investigation nothing burger.   And he is, specifically, referring to the documented facts from the Senate Intel Committee Report about Trump's enmeshment with Russian oligarchs, and Kremlin/GRU meddling in the 2016 U.S. election on behalf of their Orange Asset, Donald Trump.

Frum’s “indisputable facts” wither on examination:

1-3. Entirely irrelevant. It was not illegal for Americans to have contact or business with citizens from the Russian Federation. The Trump Tower deal was almost entirely the initiative of Felix Sater - nothing was built, no money was exchanged.

Felix Sater was a long-term business associate of Trump, who said in 2015 that Putin intended to put Trump in the White House.  And, yes, Trump lied publicly about his Moscow Trump Tower plans in 2016.  That, alone, created significant kompromat for Putin-- which could be leveraged for strategic foreign policy concessions by his Orange Asset.  He had Trump over several barrels.

4 - The Committee do not possess any kind of intercept revealing any kind of Putin directive authorizing any kind of operation directed at US politicians. They instead utilize backward reasoning i.e. the emails were purloined by a “GRU hack” (a contentious supposition to begin with), therefore Putin “must have” ordered it.

More bunk.  Let's recall that the Republicans in control of that committee were doing everything in their power to deny and minimize the evidence of Kremlin meddling in the 2016 election-- and they still concluded that it happened.  BTW, how do you know what classified intel they relied on?  Explain.

 

6 - The offer of “harmful information” was a pretence to arrange a meeting about other matters. The Trump campaign may have desired “dirt” on their opponent, but clearly so did their opponent want dirt on them, and was much more successful in obtaining it. The Russian lawyer also dined with associates of Clinton (Fusion GPS) at the same time.

Is it illegal for a U.S. Presidential campaign to seek foreign assistance?  Geez... even Steve Bannon said that the Trump Tower meeting with Veselnitskaya was treasonous.

8 - Roger Stone had at best extremely limited communications with Wikileaks representatives, and his “predictions” were merely the repetition of publicly available open source information.

Nice sleight of hand, Jeff.  You managed to dodge the fact that Roger Stone bragged about dining with Assange in London-- around the time that he boasted about Hillary soon being in a barrel.

10 - Manafort’s longtime right-hand man Kilimnik worked over a decade for an offshoot of the NED in Moscow, and was a valued information source for the US Embassy in Kiev. Neither Mueller or the Senate Subcommittee has been able to actually explain what they think he did, not has it been revealed what exactly led to his designation of “Russian intelligence officer”. Kilimnik, as well as most persons who knew or worked with him, denies the allegation.

You're still pushing the canard that Kilimnik is not a GRU agent, eh, Jeff?  If Manafort had nothing to hide about his collusion with Kilimnik, why did he lie about it repeatedly during the Mueller investigation-- even after he agreed to cooperate with Mueller, as part of his plea bargain?

Here, you're trying to argue that Manafort stonewalling the investigation of his contacts with Kilimnik is evidence of Kilimnik's innocence!  It's an absurd argument.

11 - Policies associated with the Trump campaign “supporting Putin” were based on a notion of turning the Russians towards the US and away from China, so as to better pursue a Cold War against the latter - as was clearly articulated by those involved in promoting these notions in the weeks ahead of the Republican convention.

The Manafort-led Trump Campaign altered the RNC platform (in Cleveland) on U.S. policy in Ukraine.  Talk about your quid pro quo!  And Trump, repeatedly, kow-towed to Putin during his tenure in the White House-- most notoriously in Helsinki, where he denied before a worldwide audience that Putin had meddled in the U.S. election.  Even before taking office in December of 2016, Michael Flynn conferred with Sergei Lavrov about undermining U.S. sanctions imposed on Putin for meddling in our 2016 election...

 

 

 

Every single point in your silly list of speculations, hearsays, boastings , stonewallings, and kowtowings was basically neatly dissected, identified and catalogued in the Aaron Mate piece which was linked but obviously not read by yourself. Mate's dissection is framed by an analysis of the awful now mostly retracted and yet Pulitzer prize winning reporting served up by America's legacy media, the same institution another poster here has praised as the blue ribbon standard for the world. You yourself should get a prize for your faithful regurgitation of these now retracted monuments to credulity over these past five years. Even so, your lack of self-awareness allowed you to write "I'm the last person around here who would trust M$M coverage of intel or military black ops..." And yet...

I'm fairly certain that David Frum doesn't really believe any of his "incontrovertible facts" either, as he is as much an influence peddler as anyone else in this sordid tale and playing a zero sum game where notions of "truth" or accountability can be very malleable depending on the situation. Is this morass of stupidity the "inevitable end result" of this past half century of sinister information management programs? It is and it isn't - i.e. it doesn't have to be. There are methods embedded within our enlightenment frameworks of knowledge and justice which encourage rational disposition, but they must be committed to.

 

[Matt Allison]

Joe Biden tried to make money as a private citizen? Oh the horror! What, does he think this is a capitalist country or something?

Perhaps you prefer he make money Trump-style? Buy a hotel, become President, and then force-sell access to it?

Also LOL at the idea a Rupert Murdoch-owned paper isn't "mainstream media"

[Kirk Gallaway]

Oh don't say that Matt, the New York Post is the official mouthpiece of Trump! I do have a little thrill for Dennis though.

Fox Queen commentator Tomi Lahren comments before the 2020 election. Is it insane how poorly this aged?       heh heh!

What a call!  Yes of course Trump voters have better things to do! Like waiting for weeks in Dealey Plaza for JFK and JFK Jr. to show up!

Dennis, do us all a favor and tell your people to leave Dallas. Just tell them JFK and son couldn't make it!

*****

On a lighter note, do you know the lead prosecutor in the  Ghislain Maxwell trial is Maureen Comey? James Comey's daughter!

Edited November 30, 2021 by Kirk Gallaway

[Kirk Gallaway]

I know the precise moment Jeff fell in love with Putin.  He does look kind of like an Inuit, right Jeff?  Now even more so!

[Jake Hammond]

On 11/27/2021 at 6:58 PM, W. Niederhut said:

Spot on, Kirk.

I would add that Jake's description of our recent forum discussion of the Rittenhouse case is also inaccurate.

My recollection is that Bob Ness gave a very clear summary of why Rittenhouse was acquitted.   I agreed with Bob's legal analysis, but simply mentioned the larger social problem of right wing vigilantes with guns on America's streets (and even in our Capitol buildings!)

Perhaps some people, including Jake, believe this kind of vigilantism is acceptable, but I wonder how Jake would feel if there were teen vigilantes with AR-15s murdering Labor Party supporters on the streets of merry old England... 🤥

 

1 - Since he was found not guilty your statement that he murdered them is factually and demonstrably a false hood. He shot three people ( all criminals BTW, one pedophile, one violent repeat domestic abuser and a thief) in self defence, two died, I don't believe that he intended to kill any one of them. One hit him in the head with a weapon ( coincidentally a case of someone using a skateboard as a weapon had come up a few weeks earlier in the same area), one chased him saying he'd kill him whilst his friend fired a weapon, the third literally drew a weapon and tried to shoot him. Anyone who has watched the videos and watched the trial and knows the law will know that he acted in self defence and was legally carrying that weapon. 

 2- Apart from the copy cat of your riots last summer by angry young minorities and woke middle class students we don't have leftist mobs roaming the streets with pitch forks here, and we don't have guns so its not an issue. 

 3- I haven't seen a single comment, not one comment about the Waukesha attack. Where an openly racist black  BLM supporter mowed down innocent white  children, 6 dead so far but more expected . CNN called it ' an accident' , MSNBC called it a ' car crash' . the democrats won't acknowledge it.  You won't comment on it, yet you're all STILL moaning about Trump ! Your media is so far left its quite unbelievable. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Jake Hammond

[W. Niederhut]

Jake,

The Black Lives Matter protesters in the U.S. have been mostly peaceful, (>93% in one official estimate) but the protests have been marred, in part, by right wing agent provocateurs posing as BLM protesters.

You may not have heard about these cases, but a number of apparent "woke middle class students" who attacked the police during the George Floyd riots in the U.S. turned out to be right wing Boogaloo Boy types disguised as "woke middle class students." *

I'm going out on a limb here to guess that you also know nothing about the numerous documented cases of un-woke Americans driving their cars and trucks into crowds of BLM protesters here in the U.S. since May of 2020.  In fact, driving vehicles into crowds of protesters is now legal in some red states in the U.S.!

*Boogaloo Bois fired on Minneapolis police precinct, shouted 'Justice for Floyd'

Feds say Ivan Harrison Hunter helped burn and loot the Third Precinct building as part of a coordinated attack from the far-right group trying to ignite an American civil war

www.startribune.com/charges-boogaloo-bois-fired-on-mpls-precinct-shouted-justice-for-floyd/572843802/

 

 

 

 

Keith Ellison: White Supremacists Suspected of Sabotaging George Floyd Protests With Violence And Arson
Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison called for an investigation into the “real legitimate evidence” that the crimes committed during Minneapolis’ George Floyd protests have been committed by white men who are part of “a very serious operation.”

crooksandliars.com/2020/05/keith-ellison-white-supremacists-may-be

 

[Benjamin Cole]

W--

"The Black Lives Matter protesters in the U.S. have been mostly peaceful, (>93% in one official estimate) but the protests have been marred, in part, by right wing agent provocateurs posing as BLM protesters."

---30---

But something like this did not happen on 1/6, for absolutely sure. 

Because the Deep State loved Trump. 

 

 

 

[W. Niederhut]

32 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

W--

"The Black Lives Matter protesters in the U.S. have been mostly peaceful, (>93% in one official estimate) but the protests have been marred, in part, by right wing agent provocateurs posing as BLM protesters."

---30---

But something like this did not happen on 1/6, for absolutely sure. 

Because the Deep State loved Trump. 

 

 

 

Ben,

     Speaking of January 6th... 😨

Trump called aides hours before Capitol riot to discuss how to stop Biden victory
www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-called-aides-hours-before-capitol-riot-to-discuss-how-to-stop-biden-victory/ar-AARhMDe?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

November 30, 2021

[Chris Davidson]

20 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Ben,

     Speaking of January 6th... 😨

Trump called aides hours before Capitol riot to discuss how to stop Biden victory
www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-called-aides-hours-before-capitol-riot-to-discuss-how-to-stop-biden-victory/ar-AARhMDe?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

November 30, 2021

Same MO, different day:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/03/us/politics/trump-raffensperger-call-georgia.html

[Benjamin Cole]

45 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Ben,

     Speaking of January 6th... 😨

Trump called aides hours before Capitol riot to discuss how to stop Biden victory
www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-called-aides-hours-before-capitol-riot-to-discuss-how-to-stop-biden-victory/ar-AARhMDe?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

November 30, 2021

Does the above story have anything to do with the possibility of federal instigators in the 1/6 scrum? 

 

[W. Niederhut]

36 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Does the above story have anything to do with the possibility of federal instigators in the 1/6 scrum? 

 

Ben,

    I'd call it another nail in the "January-6th-Was-a-Deep-State-Plot" coffin.

    The evidence seems to indicate that January 6th was a Donald Trump plot to steal the election.

    The Trump/Fox attempt to fob Trump's January 6th coup attempt off on the "Deep State" is formally similar to their protracted attempt to fob Trump's Russiagate scandal off on the "Deep State."

     It was all deflective bunk-- a smokescreen to cover up Trump's crimes against the United States.

[Benjamin Cole]

My take on Michael Flynn is that he is a bit addled. I say this with no derision at all; a relative of mine acted erratically for a few years and then it determined a brain tumor was involved.  

Interesting story: 

Former White House national security adviser and ardent supporter of QAnon, Michael Flynn, allegedly suggested the far-right political conspiracy theory movement is in fact a disinformation campaign orchestrated by the CIA.---The Daily Mail 

Still, Flynn has been high places for a long time. And what do we say? For decades if you thought there was something more to the JKFA, the media portrayed you as a nut. 

As I say, the Deep State has about 10,000 times the resources of the Trumpers to control M$M narratives and work behind the scenes to create PR stunts, such as a 1/6.