The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Paul Brancato]

1 minute ago, W. Niederhut said:

Paul,

     I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that Donald Trump has spent half of his life scamming people and the other half trying to avoid consequences for his scams.  In fact, one of his biographers said a few years ago that Trump has always taken a perverse delight in scamming people and getting away with it.

     Of course, Trump's biggest scam was convincing the white working class in 2016 that he represented their interests and was not beholden to the Koch plutocrats who bought the GOP ten years ago. 

     Most of his white working class base still haven't even figured out that they got scammed.  It's false consciousness on steroids.

    

Do you think that this time justice will prevail? 

[W. Niederhut]

14 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Do you think that this time justice will prevail? 

I don't know enough about law to offer an informed opinion on that, Paul.  Trump's attorneys always seem find a way to help him beat the rap, and/or tie things up in endless appeals.

I noticed that Michael Cohen mentioned recently that the prosecutors in NY will have to go after Weisselberg's son to circumvent his stonewalling in the tax fraud investigation.

I'm curious as to why a Special Prosecutor hasn't already been appointed by the DOJ to investigate Trump's role in the January 6th insurrection.

Edited December 4, 2021 by W. Niederhut

[Matt Allison]

W- I don''t know if this is going to unravel any faster than Watergate, but at some point before the 1/6 committee finishes up next summer, they will refer Trump to DOJ for indictment. The rumor is that they already have the basic outline of the plot, and now they are preparing their forks and knives. Everyone involved in the conspiracy will ultimately claim they were acting on his orders. Which is possibly true. Doesn't make them any less guilty, but that's what they'll say. 

[Matt Allison]

This Jeffrey Clark thing is moving fast; was supposed to plead the 5th tomorrow, but today claimed he now has a medical condition, and must wait two weeks to testify. Simultaneously, it appears White House metadata has been found in his letter to Georgia officials trying to tamper with the 2020 election results.

https://www.palmerreport.com/analysis/white-house-metadata-no-wonder-jeffrey-clark-is-pleading-the-fifth-and-its-all-landing-in-donald-trumps-lap/42891/

[Paul Brancato]

In my opinion the more likely scenario is that Biden and his attorney general won’t do enough to stop the ongoing insurrection. The longer this Jan 6 investigation drags on, the longer we wait for indictments, the more empowered the Trumpers will feel. I don’t see this ending well. The defense of Democracy is too slow, too weak. Ultimately it doesn't matter how guilty he is if he is not stopped. 

[David Andrews]

How would the 1/6 investigation and prosecutions have played out had it happened in England?  In Britain, France, Germany, Spain?  In a South American country?  Much the same, I'd imagine, with a few more cracked ribs among the plebs.

[Matt Allison]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

In my opinion the more likely scenario is that Biden and his attorney general won’t do enough to stop the ongoing insurrection. The longer this Jan 6 investigation drags on, the longer we wait for indictments, the more empowered the Trumpers will feel. I don’t see this ending well. The defense of Democracy is too slow, too weak. Ultimately it doesn't matter how guilty he is if he is not stopped. 

There are already public hearings scheduled for the spring/summer. Select committees make referrals for indictments, and all signs point to the DOJ letting the 1/6 committee do the public work for the time being, and then acting on indictments.

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

There are already public hearings scheduled for the spring/summer. Select committees make referrals for indictments, and all signs point to the DOJ letting the 1/6 committee do the public work for the time being, and then acting on indictments.

And the Trump/Fox GOP will continue to spin the investigation of the singular, historic January 6th insurrection as mere partisan politics.  Trump's habitual criminal conduct has been normalized.  Americans are numb -- like boiling frogs.

It's another sign of how far the GOP has fallen since the days of Watergate, when Nixon knew that Congressional Republicans intended to hold him accountable for Presidential misconduct.

And the crimes Trump has committed are 100 times worse than Nixon's Watergate peccadilloes.

[Matt Allison]

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

And the Trump/Fox GOP will continue to spin the investigation of the singular, historic January 6th insurrection as mere partisan politics.  Trump's habitual criminal conduct has been normalized.  Americans are numb -- like boiling frogs.

It's another sign of how far the GOP has fallen since the days of Watergate, when Nixon knew that Congressional Republicans intended to hold him accountable for Presidential misconduct.

And the crimes Trump has committed are 100 times worse than Nixon's Watergate peccadilloes.

Let them spin. They will do that every night, no matter what. Everyone knows their scam; everyone knows they aren't a news channel but rather a propaganda outlet. When the conspirators are cooling their heels in prison, the bs Fox sells won't be of any help to them.

Don't discount the effect the public hearings will have. It will be huge.

[Kirk Gallaway]

On 12/2/2021 at 8:41 PM, Kirk Gallaway said:

hope the modern 'Phant party can eschew the worst elements, and migrate towards a true populist party, with the interests of the employee-middle class foremost. Non-interventionist foreign policies, and pro-American trade policies.  A feeble hope, but a hope. 

To that I answered

Have you even put in the effort to know who you're Republican heroes are outside of that one Libertarian complete pariah, Massey? 

Then I pointed out , Ben always seems to side with Libertarians while claiming he's a champion to the "employee middle class"  while favoring candidates whose policies marginalize the middle class.. But the only person in government I've ever heard him gush praise on besides Trump was this Congressman Thomas Massey.

Just the other day, we had a  high school student murdering four of his classmates in Michigan. So it comes off as incredibly horrible timing that Ben's one hero Republican he can name comes up today with this Christmas greeting.

This is not unlike many other U.S. superficially researched conclusions or  recommendations from Ben. IMO

Maybe Ben should get involved in the politics of his own people in the U.K. for a change, and bring his freedom and liberty sermon back home to encourage his citizenry to adapt much more liberal gun policies like they have in the U.S. Judging from posts here from Brits , It looks like it may be an idea whose time has come!

Just a thought

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Kirk Gallaway

[Jeff Carter]

4 hours ago, David Andrews said:

How would the 1/6 investigation and prosecutions have played out had it happened in England?  In Britain, France, Germany, Spain?  In a South American country?  Much the same, I'd imagine, with a few more cracked ribs among the plebs.

The coup in Kiev in 2014 was virtually an exact mirror event, with far-right “protesters” storming the legislature, chasing away the constitutionally elected legislators who were voting on an important bill, and then proclaiming a new government. In that case, the Obama administration within a few hours recognized the protester’s political allies as the new “legitimate government”.

Right wing protesters in Hong Kong, who in the summer of 2019 rallied support using events in Ukraine as a model for insurrection, demanded the right to “petition the government” directly in front of the civic legislature - a demand echoed by a bipartisan cross-section of senior US politicians, who portrayed previous attempts stymied by police as grave violations of the human right to protest. When the authorities relented, the protesters smashed their way into the legislature chamber and proceeded to utterly trash the place. Nancy Pelosi, remarking on that event, made the well publicized comment that it was a “beautiful sight to behold”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvz7SO3Ppos

I point this out not to excuse the 1/6 events or extol some kind of “gotcha” moment, but it is important to recognize when politicians and the media are situational rather than principled, especially when supporting / condemning violent right wing mobs.

[David Andrews]

41 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

The coup in Kiev in 2014 was virtually an exact mirror event, with far-right “protesters” storming the legislature, chasing away the constitutionally elected legislators who were voting on an important bill, and then proclaiming a new government. In that case, the Obama administration within a few hours recognized the protester’s political allies as the new “legitimate government”.

Right wing protesters in Hong Kong, who in the summer of 2019 rallied support using events in Ukraine as a model for insurrection, demanded the right to “petition the government” directly in front of the civic legislature - a demand echoed by a bipartisan cross-section of senior US politicians, who portrayed previous attempts stymied by police as grave violations of the human right to protest. When the authorities relented, the protesters smashed their way into the legislature chamber and proceeded to utterly trash the place. Nancy Pelosi, remarking on that event, made the well publicized comment that it was a “beautiful sight to behold”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvz7SO3Ppos

I point this out not to excuse the 1/6 events or extol some kind of “gotcha” moment, but it is important to recognize when politicians and the media are situational rather than principled, especially when supporting / condemning violent right wing mobs.

Well, yes, Jeff.  But I did list Western nations, allied to us and influenced by American-style democracy/representative government to one degree or another.  Not governments which it's in our anti-democratic interests to subvert.  My point was that a return to business as usual would prevail across those boards.

[Jeff Carter]

1 hour ago, David Andrews said:

Well, yes, Jeff.  But I did list Western nations, allied to us and influenced by American-style democracy/representative government to one degree or another.  Not governments which it's in our anti-democratic interests to subvert.  My point was that a return to business as usual would prevail across those boards.

Both Ukraine and Hong Kong were “democracies” in the sense that political representatives were voted into office by the citizenry based on constitutional procedure.

But you are certainly correct re: “a few more cracked ribs among the plebs”. The vicious response to the Catalan independence referendum - taken as a sort of insurrection by Spanish authorities - is Exhibit A for that. The French authorities too have been extremely violent towards the "yellow vest" protest movement. It's interesting in contrast that the 1/6 mob were not met with overwhelming force on the day but with heavy judicial sanction after the fact.

[Matt Allison]

3 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

The coup in Kiev in 2014 was virtually an exact mirror event, with far-right “protesters”

This is just total BS. Why are you posting such nonsensical propaganda like this?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

but it is important to recognize when politicians and the media are situational rather than principled

Yep.

They define who is a terrorist or a freedom fighter according to whether it suits their objectives.