The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Benjamin Cole]

The Donks have totally embraced the national security state and their donor class. 

The M$M media was already there. 

Narratives, usually designed to make readers/viewers feel smarter than the hillbillies who support the other side, are manufactured for mass consumption. 

Hillary Clinton is talking about the need for "gatekeepers" on the news. 

Social media operators as government censors? 

The purple party wants that. We are headed there. 

Trump is the main threat to liberty---that's what the M$M says. 

Those savage-lulus in the Capitol will seize power unless information and news is tightly controlled. 

You know the difference between Hillary Clinton and Liz Cheney? Cheney wears glasses in public. And has a better hairdo. 

 

[W. Niederhut]

5 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

I point this out not to excuse the 1/6 events or extol some kind of “gotcha” moment, but it is important to recognize when politicians and the media are situational rather than principled, especially when supporting / condemning violent right wing mobs.

Jeff,

   Can you give us some examples of "principled" politicians and media supporting violent right wing mobs?  🤥

    

   

Edited December 5, 2021 by W. Niederhut

[Matt Allison]

Since Putin plans on invading the Ukraine soon, I imagine the aim of his stooges is to cause as many domestic problems and distractions for Biden as possible. Being President is definitely no picnic.

[David Andrews]

19 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

Both Ukraine and Hong Kong were “democracies” in the sense that political representatives were voted into office by the citizenry based on constitutional procedure.

 

...And I suspect we'd like to see them both go down so we can spank their "parents" - Russia and China.  China wants Hong Kong humbled as much as it wants Formosa back.

Edited December 5, 2021 by David Andrews

[Ron Bulman]

I found this article interesting regarding not just where we've come in the last 58 years but since 1887.  I didn't know the J-6 committee was addressing this.  Wonder if anything will come of it, a little bipartisan support at least.

Fearing a Repeat of Jan. 6, Congress Eyes Changes to Electoral Count Law (msn.com)

[Ron Bulman]

22 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

To that I answered

Have you even put in the effort to know who you're Republican heroes are outside of that one Libertarian complete pariah, Massey? 

Then I pointed out , Ben always seems to side with Libertarians while claiming he's a champion to the "employee middle class"  while favoring candidates whose policies marginalize the middle class.. But the only person in government I've ever heard him gush praise on besides Trump was this Congressman Thomas Massey.

Just the other day, we had a  high school student murdering four of his classmates in Michigan. So it comes off as incredibly horrible timing that Ben's one hero Republican he can name comes up today with this Christmas greeting.

This is not unlike many other U.S. superficially researched conclusions or  recommendations from Ben. IMO

Maybe Ben should get involved in the politics of his own people in the U.K. for a change, and bring his freedom and liberty sermon back home to encourage his citizenry to adapt much more liberal gun policies like they have in the U.S. Judging from posts here from Brits , It looks like it may be an idea whose time has come!

Just a thought

 

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Ron Bulman

[Jeff Carter]

18 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

This is just total BS. Why are you posting such nonsensical propaganda like this?

On February 22, 2014 the following things happened in Kiev, Ukraine:

1) a far-right mob stormed the parliament building

2) inside, the legislators were voting on the acceptance of an EU mediated plan to resolve the political impasse associated with the Maidan protests

3) the mob prevented the vote. legislators were chased from the building. politicians allied with the far right mob declared a new government.

4) within a few hours, the Obama administration recognized the new government as “legitimate”

If you can establish even one of the above points as being incorrect / mistaken then you can assert that I am sharing “nonsensical propaganda”.  But you won’t be able to.

 

W. Niederhut - Can you give us some examples of "principled" politicians and media supporting violent right wing mobs?

I did. Again, it’s not to make a “gotcha” point. It’s to emphasize that we should try to understand the world as it is, not as we wish it to be. The Obama administration also supported and “legitimized” a right wing coup in Honduras, and advisors from the Obama Justice Department, it is now known, were key to initiating the Lava Jato “anti-corruption” witch hunt in Brazil - which hobbled the left-leaning democratically elected government, led to its leaders being jailed, and ultimately resulted in the election of proto-fascist Bolsanaro.

[Kirk Gallaway]

Jeff: The coup in Kiev in 2014 was virtually an exact mirror event, with far-right “protesters” storming the legislature, chasing away the constitutionally elected legislators who were voting on an important bill,

Exact mirror event Jeff? Wasn't the important bill  in essence a decision for Ukraine to ally with Putin and the Russian Federation who Yanukovych had previously accepted aid from and the "far right" (at least you're not using the "F" word, which was commonly used here a while back) were protesting their decision to suspend the signing of an associative agreement with the EU?

Though Jeff is right, It was the overthrow of a duly elected government, and the west's response was situational, which has never surprised me, on either side.  Though polling did show the Euromaidan  had an edge as far as public support for merging with the EU, but it wasn't an impressive majority. Eventually the establishment leader Yanukovych in early 2014 fled the country to Russia and to join his fellow kleptocrat Vladimir Putin after  bilking his native country for  billions with his own crime syndicate, leaving behind an opulent estate that everyday people finally got a chance to see on his departure below. Any good public will that the pro  Russian Yanukovych  backed agreement had had eventually was to sour later in 2015 when Putin invaded Crimea.

Oliver Stone depicted the "right wing"Maidan as "Fascists", and embraced Yanukovch in exile in Russia and .gave him a big interview although he pilfered his country of billions. Stone's characterization, as I recall,  was because the Maidan party had a faction that held up a WW2  historical nationalistic political  figure named  Bandera,  who at one point when Ukrainians were victims to atrocities at the hands of both the Soviets and the Nazis sided with the Nazis against Stalin's collectivist economic rape of Ukraine and did commit some atrocities. But they were only a faction within the greater pro EU movement and later became a minority party in the new government..

However dangerous this splinter group was reputed to be. Obviously Stone's greatest fears never materialized, and 4 years later,there was enough stability for the Ukrainian public to elect a comedian Alexander Zelensky to office with 73% of the vote with what I remember was some astonishing figure in the 80% range turnover in their legislature. Wouldn't we all like something like that?  I hope we don't get some spin from Stone that a new Putin invasion was justified, like as I recall he did with Putin's invasion of Crimea..

Sometimes one side or or the other just gets lucky, but as we can see now, we can never presuppose that there can be lasting stability with an unstable country in an unstable region.

 

 

 

iting

Edited December 5, 2021 by Kirk Gallaway

[Matt Allison]

It wasn't a "far-right" group, and the President at the time was a hilariously corrupt convicted felon that the citizenry gave the boot to.

 

[Jeff Carter]

1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Jeff: The coup in Kiev in 2014 was virtually an exact mirror event, with far-right “protesters” storming the legislature, chasing away the constitutionally elected legislators who were voting on an important bill,

Exact mirror event Jeff? Wasn't the important bill  in essence a decision for Ukraine to ally with Putin and the Russian Federation who Yanukovych had previously accepted aid from and the "far right" (at least you're not using the "F" word, which was commonly used here a while back) were protesting their decision to suspend the signing of an associative agreement with the EU?

Though Jeff is right, It was the overthrow of a duly elected government, and the west's response was situational, which has never surprised me, on either side.  Though polling did show the Euromaidan  had an edge as far as public support for merging with the EU, but it wasn't an impressive majority. Eventually the establishment leader Yanukovych in early 2014 fled the country to Russia and to join his fellow kleptocrat Vladimir Putin after  bilking his native country for  billions with his own crime syndicate, leaving behind an opulent estate that everyday people finally got a chance to see on his departure below. Any good public will that the pro  Russian Yanukovych  backed agreement had had eventually was to sour later in 2015 when Putin invaded Crimea.

Oliver Stone depicted the "right wing"Maidan as "Fascists", and embraced Yanukovch in exile in Russia and .gave him a big interview although he pilfered his country of billions. Stone's characterization, as I recall,  was because the Maidan party had a faction that held up a WW2  historical nationalistic political  figure named  Bandera,  who at one point when Ukrainians were victims to atrocities at the hands of both the Soviets and the Nazis sided with the Nazis against Stalin's collectivist economic rape of Ukraine and did commit some atrocities. But they were only a faction within the greater pro EU movement and later became a minority party in the new government..

However dangerous this splinter group was reputed to be. Obviously Stone's greatest fears never materialized, and 4 years later,there was enough stability for the Ukrainian public to elect a comedian Alexander Zelensky to office with 73% of the vote with what I remember was some astonishing figure in the 80% range turnover in their legislature. Wouldn't we all like something like that?  I hope we don't get some spin from Stone that a new Putin invasion was justified, like as I recall he did with Putin's invasion of Crimea..

Sometimes one side or or the other just gets lucky, but as we can see now, we can never presuppose that there can be lasting stability with an unstable country in an unstable region.

 

 

 

iting

Hi Kirk. The voting in Kiev on Feb 22, 2014 was about accepting an internationally mediated agreement arrived at the previous evening, which set out a political compromise to resolve the political crisis which the Maidan protests sparked. This compromise included moving up the date of the next presidential election to the December 2014. The ”far-right protesters” stormed the parliament to specifically prevent the mediated compromise from receiving official approval. The Maidan protests were not initially about the EU association deal, they reflected a more generalized frustration with a corrupt political culture.  The EU Association agreement, which Yanukovych supported and negotiated, became controversial months previously after the fine print of the deal was revealed, featuring several problematic issues such as clauses demanding exclusivity and the requirement of a harsh austerity program regulating government spending. Holding a presidential election later in the year would have allowed ample time for a proper public debate on the pros and cons of the deal, but the coup forestalled this process. The hasty recognition of a “new government” as somehow ”legitimate”(by USA, UK, and Canada) ruined any chance to reverse the outcome.

Protesters against the unconstitutional change of government soon came under violent attack (most gruesome in Odessa where dozens of persons were literally burned to death), and a flurry of repressive legislation aimed at Russian speaking persons within the country was enacted. This led to the controversial referendum in Crimea, and the refusal of the Donest-Lugansk regions to recognize the new regime. Those events were portrayed by the NATO military alliance as a “Russian invasion”.

The “historical nationalist” faction to which you refer have a power base within the Ukraine government centered on the state security apparatus, which the Zelensky government does not control or influence. The negotiated Minsk accords, which was meant to find a political way forward between Kiev and the regions which refused to accept the coup, has never been carried through. The “historical nationalist” faction believes adamantly that the breakaway regions must be brought to heel through military force. The Russian Federation has said that they will not permit such to happen, and that has been portrayed by NATO as “Russian aggression”.

[Jeff Carter]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

It wasn't a "far-right" group, and the President at the time was a hilariously corrupt convicted felon that the citizenry gave the boot to.

 

There is a historical documented record of the events in Ukraine, and my account accurately matches that record. Your arrogant dismissal of the facts is therefore rather amusing. Further, Yanukovych - whatever one may feel about him - was not ever “convicted” and no finding regarding his personal corruption, or lack thereof, was ever established or even really investigated, and, most pertinently, in constitutional democracies, there are set procedures for the impeachment of elected officials. In other words, an angry mob “kicking him out” has no legal basis - which you seem to understand re: the 1/6 events, but in this instance you seem to believe otherwise. 

As well, the presence and influence of "far-right", or "historical nationalist", agitators in Ukraine is well documented, and the denial of such is truly an example of "nonsensical propaganda".

[Matt Allison]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Former_criminal_convictions_and_new_criminal_cases

 

You and your buddy's ceaseless demonizing of the United States and propagandizing on behalf of Putin is incredibly tiresome.

[Steve Thomas]

- Madison Cawthorn -

Children are… "Eternal souls woven into earthen vessels sanctified by almighty God and endowed with the miracle of life...”

 

- Madison Cawthorn -

“But my friends, they are trying to de-masculate the young men in our country because they don’t want people who are going to stand up,”

“If you are raising a young man, please raise them to be a monster,”

 

Ummm...

Steve Thomas

[Kirk Gallaway]

Jeff, Thanks for filling in some details. Feb 22th was the very day Yanukovych fled in a hurry. This couldn't be said to be a particularly  "bloody revolution" as apparently only 62 people died between the beginning of the protests in Nov. 2013 through Feb. 22nd. Though I'm sure intimidation was a factor. Still , he had the power of the state, he chose not to fight it

Sort of similar to Marcos and the Shah in that they all chose to leave probably to keep as much of their assets in tact, rather than face trial and prison.

Jeff: Yanukovych - whatever one may feel about him - was not ever “convicted” and no finding regarding his personal corruption, or lack thereof, was ever established or even really investigated,

I'm not sure that's a good defense Jeff. As you said yourself, "The Maidan protests were not initially about the EU association deal, they reflected a more generalized frustration with a corrupt political culture."  Besides he has quite a rap sheet, from Matt's Wiki, including being a thug when he was young and Including murder of protestors!

"A warrant for Yanukovych's arrest was issued on 24 February 2014 by the interim government, accusing him of mass murder of protesters.^[21] Acting Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov declared that Yanukovych has been placed on Ukraine's most wanted list and that a criminal case on mass killings of civilians has been opened against him.^[2"

He's certainly been investigated in some detail. regarding corruption, and there's no doubt his people want him.

Ukrtelekom case

"On 30 September 2014, the General Prosecutor of Ukraine opened a new case against Yanukovych for using 220 million hryvnia of state money to establish his own private communication company based on Ukrtelekom.^[256] The prosecutor's office also considered that Yanukovych was helped by the former government officials Mykola Azarov (prime minister), Yuriy Kolobov (finance minister), Anatoliy Markovsky (first deputy minister of finance), Hennadiy Reznikov (director of Derzhspetszviazok), and Dzenyk (Ukrtelekom board of directors).^[256]"

 

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Kirk Gallaway

[Jeff Carter]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Former_criminal_convictions_and_new_criminal_cases

 

You and your buddy's ceaseless demonizing of the United States and propagandizing on behalf of Putin is incredibly tiresome.

You’re the one calling people names for posting information you don’t like. Accurately presenting events does not add up to  “ceaseless demonization” or even “propagandizing”. You still have yet to offer factual information discounting anything I have said other than Yanukovych’s single conviction, for robbery and assault when he was 17, which was later designated “unlawful” by Ukraine’s Prosecutor General. It had nothing to do with “corruption”, and did not impede his political career. The other charges directed at Yanukovych all followed the Feb coup, were filed by his political enemies and have never been tested in a court. Again, in democracies there is both legal due process and established constitutional procedures to handle the removal from office of corrupt officials, (angry mobs storming the legislature are not included in those).

The situation in Ukraine fortunately was not entirely mirrored on 1/6. The constitutional government was not chased out of office, and a new government under Trump was not proclaimed let alone recognized as “legitimate” by other nations. As thought experiment, if such an event had occurred, it is not implausible to imagine, say, the state of California refusing to recognize or obey an unconstitutional Trump regime. To mirror Ukraine, the Trump regime would then move military assets to Oregon and Nevada and proceed to attack L.A. and San Francisco with heavy artillery. That’s what happened in eastern Ukraine - the people refused to obey or recognize the “new government” and they were attacked. The position of US and NATO, then and now, is that those people “have to” accept the coup and the following governments that they never voted for, otherwise the Ukraine government is fully justified in forcing them to do so through the application of military violence. The US and NATO are even providing the weaponry and training to help that process along.  This is not widely understood due to relentless information management which has produced a false consciousness on this issue, and a full scale shooting war with the Russian Federation may yet occur due to these misrepresentations.