Kirk Gallaway Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) Admitting they were wrong about Putin in no way absolves their contention that U.S. or Nato did take advantage of situations when they could have been more conciliatory. I would expect if Oliver Stone made such an acknowledgment, Jim would follow suit as his political views have been virtually identical to Stone over the last 7 years, and we've sort of been the beneficiary of that relationship with these films, which have advanced the JFKAC cause. As I've said, The whole situation is unfortunate, We did take advantage of the situation when they were weak.But the facts are Yeltsin and Putin waited 10 years before they formally said anything about it.,and there's only been 3 new countries admitted since,Albania and Croatia 2009, and Montenegro 2017. (Sh-t was that worth it!? Otherwise they could say they haven't admitted anyone in 18 years!) The significance of those admissions is BS anyway IMO,The stigma of Nato is just fear creating fear. It's too late now. Or maybe a missiles in Turkey thing. The Democrats can make a deal with Putin that if he gets out of Ukraine and agrees to fix the next U.S. election for the Dems. They'll agree to not expand nato anymore, and after a couple years, it will be near impossible to undo it). heh heh Joke It seems incredibly naive, but I suppose you have to give credit to Putin for asking to be admitted into Nato. I've had a few situations when I was young that sort of parallel this experience. Were you ever approached by anyone who wanted to join a club or association you were in, but you knew nobody else in your group wanted him? Well, let's just take it further, suppose the reason they wanted admission in your group in the first place, was specifically to get away from that person? It seems like people in Eastern Europe are grateful for the protection of Nato and grateful to the U.S, for being head of it. Whereas there's a solid chunk of Western Europe sophisticates that are asking why Nato at all and why the busybody protective U.S.? I did think the general thrust of Trump wanting to see how serious Nato is about protecting itself , and paying their way, was a good thing. But it's not hard to understand given Europe's historic inability at self rule over the last century and really forever, throughout history, that the U.S. is skeptical and doesn't want to be sucked in again to WW3. How to defuse this? A possible answer to all this, but off in the future.. It would be nice to see Europe actually being able to structure some consensus and leave the US cocoon, or decouple, with an understanding that the U.S. under an emergency would supply weapons. But that's probably unthinkable in Europe. They're very dependent on the U.S. Maybe it's time for them to stop bitchin' and complaining and move out of their parent's house. As for the nuclear threat, normally it would be BS, IMO. but nobody would ever say that. We went 40 years to prove neither of the major superpowers was willing to use nuclear weapons. We all realized the futility of mutually assured destruction. Despite Putin's fears, Any conventional war between Russia and Europe would be bs too, if not for a crazed lunatic Russian President. If you have a Kim Jong Putin, obviously all bets are off. Then after this is hopefully over, I think of a situation in the future, as far as Europe getting a piece of the international trade and services pie. How are they not going to get economically steamrolled by the Chinese in the next 20 years? What have they really got? Is it their hope that they'll be the world boutique tourist destination forever even after the Chinese have visited them 3 more times and taken every photo that they're ever going to take? I don't mean to be glib, I'm just saying I could see other problems coming up in Europe as well, and what is our responsibility? Edited March 1, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 And how long would Russia have lasted as a member of NATO? Putin's obsession with obtaining land he crazily thinks is his would have ended that mistake pretty fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Gallaway Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 I think the contention of those who think this was a series of incidents that were allowed to get out of hand would say because article 5 says an attack against one will be viewed as an attack against all. Putin's joining the alliance would be a pledge to leave them alone. I can understand skepticism but it would be harder to justify invading a fellow Nato member, But of course to Putin, this would have no bearing on Putin justifying invading Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Carter Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 2 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said: As I've said, The whole situation is unfortunate, We did take advantage of the situation when they were weak.But the facts are Yeltsin and Putin waited 10 years before they formally said anything about it. Those aren’t the facts at all, Kirk. NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early NATO Expansion - The Budapest Blow-Up 1994 https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2021-11-24/nato-expansion-budapest-blow-1994 NATO Expansion: What Yeltsin Heard https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2018-03-16/nato-expansion-what-yeltsin-heard US Ambassadors to Russia Interviewed pt 1 https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2021-06-16/us-ambassadors-to-russia-interviewed US Ambassadors to Russia Interviewed pt 2 https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2022-01-25/us-ambassadors-russia-interviewed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 - Marjorie Taylor Greene - Democrats must be stopped in their plot to create happiness. Dirty villains. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 I couldn't care less about people that bitch about NATO expansion. If Ukraine was part of NATO, none of this bullsh*t would have happened. Vladimir Putin is proof positive that NATO 100% needs to exist. Once the Russians stop being murderous dictators, then maybe someday we can talk about chilling out on NATO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 13 minutes ago, Matt Allison said: I couldn't care less about people that bitch about NATO expansion. If Ukraine was part of NATO, none of this bullsh*t would have happened. Vladimir Putin is proof positive that NATO 100% needs to exist. Once the Russians stop being murderous dictators, then maybe someday we can talk about chilling out on NATO. It’s like a Republican from the 60’s has hacked your account and is posting, Matt. This kind of attitude in 1962 would have meant 140 million Americans dead. And a lot of Europe choking on radioactive ash and every child on earth being rained on with stuff that causes cancers. Are unaware that if Ukraine announced it was joining NATO, that a conflict would likely begin in that very moment?! Russia won’t have another enemy on its doorstep militarising, the same as the USA won’t have a foe in Cuba with nukes. We’re talking about multiple nuclear nations involved. It’s high stakes. You’ve also just used “Russians” as a collective term, as if every Russian wants war. Like all Americans wanted Vietnam or Afghanistan?! Does that fit your political beliefs? Was it different when Trump used “Mexicans” as a collective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) Matt, I suspect that many of us have long wanted to believe that Putin is an "Enlightened Autocrat." I know that I have. And, as I gradually learned about the deceptions and dark side of our CIA/NATO/Saudi/Mossad "War on Terror," I secretly applauded Putin's intervention against Operation Timber Sycamore in Syria in 2015. Putin, essentially, saved Syria from our coalition's proxy war against the Assad regime. Even his brutal war in Chechnya seemed possibly justified, in light of our common concerns about Islamic terrorism-- although some people suspect that Putin may have used a false flag attack on Russian school children to launch that war. Most of us tended to look the other way when Putin began murdering journalists and persecuting opposition party politicians after 2000. I became suspicious of the man when I gradually began to understand his methods in seizing the ROCOR in 2007. I heard some stories that were creepy. But, now that Putin is using thermobaric and cluster bombs in Kharkiv and Kyiv, a paradigm shift is in order for all of us. The man is revealing his inner Yuri Andropov to the world. Paradigm shifts are difficult. We are all invested in our working models of reality. In fact, it would be impossible for us to function without them. I have to admire Matt Taibbi for acknowledging last week that his perceptions of Putin were flawed. Edited March 1, 2022 by W. Niederhut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 I'd read earlier that the 40 mile long convoy had gone 3 miles yesterday. Then I came across this one. Still an ominous threat that sooner or later they will get moving. But supply issues seem to persist. Fuel food and more. Also alluded to in the article with more from another one. Soldiers abandoning vehicles, including tanks with fuel in them. Russians surrendering, saying they were told it was a training exercise. Or hiding in the woods and begging for food. The other article mentions about 1/3 of the army being conscripts paid $25 a month, as opposed to 3year enlisted soldiers getting about $1125 a month. It went on about morale problems. Convoy approaching Ukrainian capital appears stalled as Russia unleashes greater firepower (msn.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said: I'd read earlier that the 40 mile long convoy had gone 3 miles yesterday. Then I came across this one. Still an ominous threat that sooner or later they will get moving. But supply issues seem to persist. Fuel food and more. Also alluded to in the article with more from another one. Soldiers abandoning vehicles, including tanks with fuel in them. Russians surrendering, saying they were told it was a training exercise. Or hiding in the woods and begging for food. The other article mentions about 1/3 of the army being conscripts paid $25 a month, as opposed to 3year enlisted soldiers getting about $1125 a month. It went on about morale problems. Convoy approaching Ukrainian capital appears stalled as Russia unleashes greater firepower (msn.com) Update. Just found this short article. Pentagon official says Russian troops have 'deliberately punched holes' in their own gas tanks 'presumably' to avoid combat as morale declines: report (msn.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 I think Putin is a thug, and I hope there is a bloodless coup in Moscow and he is removed, and the troops brought home. That said...boy, is DC a globalist town? Every administration just leaps at the chance not to talk about Baltimore, Detroit, West Virginia, or an entirely porous Southern border...but to become obsessed with the latest foreign policy entanglement. https://www.calculatedriskblog.com/ Here is what is happening to apartment rents in America: The Zillow measure is up 15.9% YoY in January, down slightly from 16.0% YoY in December. And the ApartmentList measure is up 17.6% as of February, down slightly from 17.9% in January. Both the Zillow measure (a repeat rent index), and ApartmentList are showing a sharp increase in rents. I understand, rents are a prosaic problem, and will take years of hard work---building apartments and houses---to solve. But you want to know why Americans are turning ugly, to populism or ID politics? Well, for one, the media promotes ID politics. For two, living standards are going down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Gallaway Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jeff Carter said: Those aren’t the facts at all, Kirk. NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early NATO Expansion - The Budapest Blow-Up 1994 https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2021-11-24/nato-expansion-budapest-blow-1994 NATO Expansion: What Yeltsin Heard https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2018-03-16/nato-expansion-what-yeltsin-heard US Ambassadors to Russia Interviewed pt 1 https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2021-06-16/us-ambassadors-to-russia-interviewed US Ambassadors to Russia Interviewed pt 2 https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2022-01-25/us-ambassadors-russia-interviewed Jeff, a lot of links to throw around, but I'm not sure how they contradict anything I've said, but that's your job. If you're saying false promises were made,I agree. I was referring to Jim's excerpts from his clip of Vladimir Pozner, who I like, where he highlighted a speech by Putin made in 2007 as the unequivocal objection made. I know there are regrets at choosing to give up their empire, but that would easily have passed if it wasn't for their catastrophic mismanagement of their economy, and the resultant chaos and hardship of their people for the next decade afterward. As I've said they had a legitimate safety net as a Socialist country and it seems they threw the whole baby out with the bathwater to emulate us. If you want, you can blame the US. or the Madison Avenue firm who ran Yeltsin's campaign. Whatever, But i just don't think anything they did after they let go of their satellites was very well thought out. Edited March 2, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 28 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said: But you want to know why Americans are turning ugly, to populism or ID politics? Well, for one, the media promotes ID politics It’s almost like we’ve seen those conditions before ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 A million of them signed the petition? That took balls in their society. Putting your name out there when you know they can find you. Opposition to Putin's war is alive on Moscow's streets. But no trace of it is covered on Russian TV (msn.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 The weapons that are turning the Russian hunters into prey - analysis (msn.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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