The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Matt Allison]

Whenever I see a country that can't manage to pull off democracy, the general impression I get of the population is that they're lagging behind on the evolutionary arc.

[Benjamin Cole]

9 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

I know plenty of Poles and they do buck the globalist/EU dissolving of nation states more than most. They are a resilient people who remembers communism most. The brutal thing for the refugee’s is that whilst they’ll move somewhere with safety, they’ll struggle and start in a new country with less opportunities than most of the population, the globalists get another influx of workers who will be on minimum wage, the cost of labour will be kept low and profits high. Which is why the British government does nothing about addressing channel crossings via small inflatable boats. Its not about helping people for the elites, only a supply of labour. 

 

It certainly isn’t, the US is still learning about the true horrors of Vietnam and war crimes there. To some degree I’d expect both sides to behave like animals, where there is hate for fellow human beings. We know the history of the past 100 years or so, we’ve seen plenty of false flags and deceptions as a pretext for war or expanding a conflict. Before entering WW1, Britain put up posters claiming Kaiser Wilhelm II’s troops were bayoneting babies in Belgium, the propaganda was enough to rouse the emotions of everyday brits into going to war. The propaganda was a complete lie. 
 

In this case, doing things that serve the recruitment department for your enemies, seems counter-predictive. I have seen the images and clips that MSM is showing. 
 

Wouldn’t you expect that wealthy Russians, including Putin would have put a lot of their wealth in crypto or bullion before the invasion, they’d surely anticipate sanctions. Immiserating the  average Russian will probably increase support for Putin in Russia (at 70% plus now), as their own propaganda will blame the West. They are about 85% self sufficient as a country anyhow. They can work with China, which doesn’t help the West. You’re right, as some experts have pointed out, the sanctions will take a while to bite. 
 

I don’t think these self serving politicians care for Ukraine, they love appearing as compassionate and virtuous in front of the media, its an opportunity. The C19 doom and gloom fizzled out and people had a 2 week break before the Ukraine thing ramped up and put everyone back under duress and the burden of worry. The fuel costs and secondary effects have people absolutely consumed by their immediate needs. People are again looking at their leaders like gods and saviours. Its a tyrants dream to have a populous like that.  
 

“In (totalitarianism) shortages of material goods, even necessities, were not a drawback but a great advantage for the rulers. These shortages were not accidental to the terror, but one of its most powerful instruments. Not only did shortages keep peoples minds strictly on bread and sausage and divert their energies to procuring them so that there was no time or inclination left over for subversion, but the shortages meant that people could be brought to inform, spy and betray each other very cheaply.”

Theordore Dalrymple 

 

They don’t care, a crisis helps the political class and the elites. Which is why the worlds billionaires made so much money during C19. They’ll be doing it a different way now. 
 

If it were me, I wouldn’t be heightening tensions, I’d be seeking a detente and stop to the suffering. We know how people behave with nothing to lose, we know how animals behave when backed into a corner. 

Chris--

Well, we share the same skeptical view of media and the world.

However, in the case of Ukraine, I believe stronger kinetic interdiction by Western powers would be de-escalatory. 

My guess---and that is all anyone has---is that Putin responds to force.  

Putin is certainly not responding to cluttered proclamations and cravenly selective sanctions. 

But the Biden White House has no other plans. There are no lobbyists able to show Biden a better pathway. Indeed, probably no lobbyists care what goes on in Ukraine. Ergo, the Donks and 'Phants don't care either. 

For humanitarian reasons, I fault the Biden White House, and Nato, for choosing to be ineffective, just when a kinetic response would be most useful. 

As an aside, the US will spend trillions, and murder millions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam, for counterproductive missions. 

But when American forces might do some good for a change....

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[Benjamin Cole]

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/06/judge-issues-first-outright-acquittal-of-jan-6-riot-defendant-00023493

Interesting. The judge actually watched a video showing the mysterious Capital Police Department, at least the few that showed up to work on Jan. 6, and the video revealed Capitol Police letting the scrum into the Capitol. 

This has been a verboten topic in M$M on Jan. 6.

Where were the 3,500 officers of the Capitol Police Department on Jan. 6 (well, we know the commander of the civil disturbances unit was home making meatloaf, per WaPo) and why did they stand down?  In addition, the DC Metro Police have 2,500 officers. There are many additional police departments in the DC area. 

Is it plausible that the most important building in the entire federal government could be breached by a few hundred lulus, many of whom were women, after much advance warning? Yes, it is plausible, as it happened. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Matt Allison]

Ben- If you're not familiar with the notorious Trump-appointed judge Trevor McFadden, a Google search will enlighten you.

IMO, he's not playing for the American team in these cases.

[Matt Allison]

Once again, I heartily suggest folks keep an eye on this story. These people were bank-rolled by someone or something with a lot of money to throw around.

 

 

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

My guess---and that is all anyone has---is that Putin responds to force.  

Where I differ from some on this is; the western media is using the psychology that Putin is a bully and bullies only back down when they are brought down a peg or two with force. ie Russia are the bully, Ukraine the victim. 
 

The trouble with this logic is; Russia thinks it is the victim of oppression and and western domination. It sees the US and NATO as the bully and itself as striking back against an empire creeping forward and putting it in a strategic noose. Russia is not about to accept Ukraine as the new NATO front, and have another border loaded with NATO troops and weaponry. In the eyes of a lot of its people, it has struck back against the bully and ensured the safety or protection of ethnic Russians in Luhansk and Donetsk. 14,000 people died between the 2014 conflict and the start of this invasion, the reporting on this was fairly absent. They knew all about it in Russia, these enclaved were asking for independence/liberation. This made Putin / Russia look weak and he still held off from this recognition of these enclaves until a month or so back. 
 

None of this makes the Russians or Putin seem virtuous, invading another country and flattening its cities. It doesn’t make them the good guys. We are viewing them as the antagonist and villains. The truth as spelled out by Mearsheimer is; NATO is a villain in the equation and shares responsibility in this disaster, as do western governments. 
 

The outrage from propagandised people is really astonishing, given they were mostly quiet as a mouse during the past 20 years of US invasions, the countries flattened, civilians killed or displaced. The US was called bullies and villains in the middle east, China and Russia. We only saw the western media telling a fairytale version of how bombing helps people and occupying countries creates democracies. 
 

We need a deescalation, a detente. But, that doesn’t keep the arms race going, it doesn’t sell vast amounts of oil for conflicts. Peace doesn’t help distract western societies from corruption, a drop in quality of life back home, broken health systems, supply chain collapses, coming food shortages, and hyper inflation. A pandemic and a war with Russia might sufficiently white wash this period of history. 
 

JFK saw a way to de-escalate such a perilous situation. But, he had a will to do so. Leaders like that are absent from the public sphere. 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

Ben- If you're not familiar with the notorious Trump-appointed judge Trevor McFadden, a Google search will enlighten you.

IMO, he's not playing for the American team in these cases.

I read the Wikipedia page. Yes, McFadden is a right-winger, and appears to have a lot of academic and professional credentials. If McFadden is "notorious".....

I disagree with your position that to be a right-winger is "not playing for the American team." Nor would I say a left-winger is "not playing for the American team."

Dissent is very American, in my view. When we start demonizing dissent.... 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

48 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

Where I differ from some on this is; the western media is using the psychology that Putin is a bully and bullies only back down when they are brought down a peg or two with force. ie Russia are the bully, Ukraine the victim. 
 

The trouble with this logic is; Russia thinks it is the victim of oppression and and western domination. It sees the US and NATO as the bully and itself as striking back against an empire creeping forward and putting it in a strategic noose. Russia is not about to accept Ukraine as the new NATO front, and have another border loaded with NATO troops and weaponry. In the eyes of a lot of its people, it has struck back against the bully and ensured the safety or protection of ethnic Russians in Luhansk and Donetsk. 14,000 people died between the 2014 conflict and the start of this invasion, the reporting on this was fairly absent. They knew all about it in Russia, these enclaved were asking for independence/liberation. This made Putin / Russia look weak and he still held off from this recognition of these enclaves until a month or so back. 
 

None of this makes the Russians or Putin seem virtuous, invading another country and flattening its cities. It doesn’t make them the good guys. We are viewing them as the antagonist and villains. The truth as spelled out by Mearsheimer is; NATO is a villain in the equation and shares responsibility in this disaster, as do western governments. 
 

The outrage from propagandised people is really astonishing, given they were mostly quiet as a mouse during the past 20 years of US invasions, the countries flattened, civilians killed or displaced. The US was called bullies and villains in the middle east, China and Russia. We only saw the western media telling a fairytale version of how bombing helps people and occupying countries creates democracies. 
 

We need a deescalation, a detente. But, that doesn’t keep the arms race going, it doesn’t sell vast amounts of oil for conflicts. Peace doesn’t help distract western societies from corruption, a drop in quality of life back home, broken health systems, supply chain collapses, coming food shortages, and hyper inflation. A pandemic and a war with Russia might sufficiently white wash this period of history. 
 

JFK saw a way to de-escalate such a perilous situation. But, he had a will to do so. Leaders like that are absent from the public sphere. 

Chris--

I largely agree with your sentiments that overseas US military missions, post-Korea, have largely been counter-productive and inhumane. The globalists who run DC (and now infest the Biden Administration) have an appalling track record. 

However, that does not exonerate anyone for flattening Mariupol or Bucha. 

We just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think kinetic interdiction in Ukraine is required for humanitarian reasons. 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

However, that does not exonerate anyone for flattening Mariupol or Bucha.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. It just amazes me, the selective outrage, which is produced by concerted media output. Nobody cares about Yemen or the other conflicts happening at the same time. Nobody cares about the potential war crimes there or civilian casualties. 
 

I am not necessarily disagreeing with what you are saying, just coming at it from another angle. We can certainly agree that a solution needs finding quickly. 

[Paul Brancato]

30 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Chris--

I largely agree with your sentiments that overseas US military missions, post-Korea, have largely been counter-productive and inhumane. The globalists who run DC (and now infest the Biden Administration) have an appalling track record. 

However, that does not exonerate anyone for flattening Mariupol or Bucha. 

We just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think kinetic interdiction in Ukraine is required for humanitarian reasons. 

The problem as I see it is that once Putin ordered Russian forces in and started killing people all discussions about NATO or any other compromising factors are put on the shelf. Chris and anyone else that points to NATO is now seen as exonerating Putin. But Ben, it’s simply not true. Nothing exonerates Putin - that’s not the point. Historical context is important. Putin apparently has the backing of Russians generally, and it’s too easy to blame this on Russian propaganda. I experienced this dichotomy personally a few weeks ago. We can walk and chew gum and the same time can’t we? 
 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 minute ago, Paul Brancato said:

The problem as I see it is that once Putin ordered Russian forces in and started killing people all discussions about NATO or any other compromising factors are put on the shelf. Chris and anyone else that points to NATO is now seen as exonerating Putin. But Ben, it’s simply not true. Nothing exonerates Putin - that’s not the point. Historical context is important. Putin apparently has the backing of Russians generally, and it’s too easy to blame this on Russian propaganda. I experienced this dichotomy personally a few weeks ago. We can walk and chew gum and the same time can’t we? 
 

Paul--

Yes, I accept there is historical context regarding Ukraine, and that Russia has 1000 times the history and legitimate interests in Ukraine as does the US. 

I am only calling for humanitarian kinetic interdiction to stop the killing in Ukraine. IMHO interdiction will work, and doing nothing is a bad option.  

Zelensky has asked for 1% of Nato's heavy weapons.  

My guess is Western globalists more-or-less partitioned Ukraine to Russia.  They can do business with Putin, they do business with Xi.  I know globalist foreign policy is never about human rights, and always about access to markets. 

Some naive, idealist, vestigial remnant in my brain calls for humane intervention in Ukraine. 

 

 

 

 

[W. Niederhut]

Ben,

    I'm not implying that you're some sort of pedophile like Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz, (although I've heard that pedophiles are fond of Thailand) but this recent Gaetz incident reminded me a bit of your daily diatribes about the Biden administration and NATO not doing enough to protect Ukraine from Russia.

   Interestingly, Jeff Carter's opinion (above) is quite the opposite-- i.e., that the Russian military has been unfairly victimized by U.S. and NATO military and intelligence technology in Ukraine.

   

Edited April 8, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Ron Bulman]

On 4/6/2022 at 9:40 PM, W. Niederhut said:

Interesting lecture on Ukrainian history from the Middle Ages to the present.

 

My how things get buried on this thread.  This is excellent.  Well worth the time.  Thanks W.

[Paul Brancato]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Paul--

Yes, I accept there is historical context regarding Ukraine, and that Russia has 1000 times the history and legitimate interests in Ukraine as does the US. 

I am only calling for humanitarian kinetic interdiction to stop the killing in Ukraine. IMHO interdiction will work, and doing nothing is a bad option.  

Zelensky has asked for 1% of Nato's heavy weapons.  

My guess is Western globalists more-or-less partitioned Ukraine to Russia.  They can do business with Putin, they do business with Xi.  I know globalist foreign policy is never about human rights, and always about access to markets. 

Some naive, idealist, vestigial remnant in my brain calls for humane intervention in Ukraine. 

 

 

 

 

The question I keep asking is how the heck did NATO and US , and Ukraine, let this happen? Western Press and governments were warning for months that Putin was going to invade. Russian troops on the border are not invisible. Why didn’t Ukraine and it’s allies put forces on the ground in the way of the key routes into Ukraine? A show of strength before the fact. 

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

The question I keep asking is how the heck did NATO and US , and Ukraine, let this happen? Western Press and governments were warning for months that Putin was going to invade. Russian troops on the border are not invisible. Why didn’t Ukraine and it’s allies put forces on the ground in the way of the key routes into Ukraine? A show of strength before the fact. 

Are we seeing the usual pretext for a conflict that the US uses? 
 

It goes something like this:

- demonise the target country. 
- agitate them.
- financially strange their economy. 
- make them desperate, on edge. 
- provoke of fabricate a reaction from them (commonly defensive). 
- spin that reaction to make it appear offensive in western media. 
- drum up emotions and public sentiment for regime change in the demonised country.

- go to war with them, appearing as the virtuous party in the equation. 

In this case it seems to go a little like this. 
 

- Western media regularly demonising Russia, very obviously in British press.

- NATO starts adding big numbers of its troops onto the western borders of ex soviet states with Russia, numbers and hardware keeps being added to. That is never reported as an escalation of tensions, its referred to as increased security. 
- The EU agrees a big pipeline bringing Russia gas into the Europe. It agrees with Russia that it will pay 50% of the cost but, if for any reason the EU doesn’t use the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, the EU must pay Russia their side of the costs.

- The EU starts spreading propaganda about a gas shortage and that Russia isn’t supplying enough. 
- Russia then openly says, if you want more gas, you just need to order some. You haven’t ordered any. They make the point that they have never failed to make a delivery on time. 
- The EU then changes their story and blames red tape on the slow opening of the pipeline. 
- Meanwhile, the Ukraine military is shelling the enclaves occupied by pro Russian Ukrainians. This isn’t reported in western MSM but, some 14,000 have died since the 2014 conflict. 
- Russia starts mobilising, moving troops and hardware to the Ukraine borders, the western media covers this extensively. 
- As you point out, nothing is done to halt or stifle the advance. Why? Because it does multiple things. It spikes oil and gas prices (Russia were cheaper, more competitive). It creates a refugee crisis and supplies the EU with another influx of desperate workers that will work for the minimum wage. It spikes profits for munitions manufacturers, passing tax payers monies to private corps. It creates public consent for a much wider conflict. The pretext for a large escalation, regime change. 
 

How much of this is about a NWO and China/Russia not being bought in to the US/wests version of technocracy, which still puts them at a disadvantage. The truth is that these conflicts always start with motives that are much less than transparent, this is no different. 
 

The idea of Putin being a mad man or Russia wanting a new Empire when it has a ramshackle military unable to fulfil this are just media theatre for masses in the west. Its far more nuanced. 
 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Chris Barnard