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Unveiling The Limo Stop


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1 hour ago, Eddy Bainbridge said:

Hi David I would be grateful if you could clarify 'and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway' in your view. 

My UK interpretation is that he is saying the limo nearly ran into what  I might call a Bollard, or more importantly, a specific point in the road. Mr Belin seems to be asking Mr Truly 'are you saying the car nearly hit the curb?'(a continuous line) NOT asking 'Did the car hit a specific point' (abutment?bollard?)

I hope its clear I'm asking this because IF there is an identifiable point that Truly is referring to as an 'abutment' then it makes re-creations easier.

 

Hi Eddy,

Look at the image of the wide turning black car in my mock-up above.  As well as the other images which combines 133 and the B&W image of a car in Position A.

How does the limo pass thru both of these points virtually simultaneously... one being quite a bit north/east while the follow up SS car in 133 remains tight to the bumper.

So yes, Truly is talking about the curb facing ELM on the little Elm extension... that he had to slow to avoid not hitting this curb (which I point out in red on the bottom image) and pull sharply back to the left to get back into position...  

If the limo passes thru Pos. A, it has to have gotten there somehow...  the Position C is the key as it is an approximation of where the turn onto Elm from Houston began...  It was only approximated.

Hope that helps

DJ

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David,

I don't know whether this helps or hinders your interpretation.  But, it may be something to consider.  Several witnesses in the TSBD 3rd and 4th floors said they heard shots fired when the p. limo was out of sight under the trees.  So, perhaps the p. limo stayed closer to the curb and a sharp turn into the center lane.  

Hope this helps. 

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10 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Next, add the "shorted" distance the WC used (.9ft) from CE884 z161-z166 and apply that to the pyramid which brings us to Station# 476.4.

CE884.png

The reason you short a distance in one location, is to accommadate for that real distance in a different location.

 

 

This Bronson gif will help to start identify the removal sequence.

It starts with Tony Glover's legs synced in both films labeled as 1.

The common action on the other end is Jackie's hand position at 20.

The Bronson film ran at 12fps.

There are 19 Bronson frames between the common actions.

19 Bronson frames converted to equivalent Zframes =18.3/12= 1.525 x 19 = 28.975

There are only 24 zframes between the common actions.

28.975 - 24 = 4.975 frame difference

Glover-Z-Bronson3.gif

 

 

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The Bronson frame(previous post) syncs at approx extant z300.

Bronson-Start.png

From that point, there are a total of 21 more frames in the Bronson film.

21 x 1.525 = 32.025 frames

Z300 + 32 = z332 equivalent

z332 - 5missing Z frames

Please note in the previous gif provided, the police motorcycles front tire, closing on the limo rear tire towards the end of the Bronson clip.

 

 

 

 

 

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Plotting the limo using the Bronson film. 

Equivalent of z308-316 gave an average of .542ft per frame = 6.75mph

Equivalent of z316-325 gave an average of .571ft per frame = 7.11mph

Using those two results and plugging them back in, starting from extant z313 headshot: 

(313-316) 3frames x .542ft per frame = 1.626ft

(316-325) 9frames x .571ft per frame = 5.139ft

1.626 + 5.139 = 6.765ft traveled from extant z313-z325

Bronson-Plotted.png

 

 

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14 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Plotting the limo using the Bronson film. 

Equivalent of z308-316 gave an average of .542ft per frame = 6.75mph

Equivalent of z316-325 gave an average of .571ft per frame = 7.11mph

Using those two results and plugging them back in, starting from extant z313 headshot: 

(313-316) 3frames x .542ft per frame = 1.626ft

(316-325) 9frames x .571ft per frame = 5.139ft

1.626 + 5.139 = 6.765ft traveled from extant z313-z325

 

 

 

Refer back to the pyramid which shows the WC adjustments (total11.1ft) added after the extant z313 shot.

11.1ft - 6.765ft = 4.335ft

The graphic below shows the outcome of hitting the brakes at 7.11mph and traveling 4.33ft ultimately coming to a stop.

Reaction time + breaking time = .2559sec

.2559sec x 18.3fps = 4.68 missing zframes

The last frames(motorcycle tire/limo tire) within the Bronson film.

Limo-Breaking.png

 

 

 

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https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25932-the-motorcade-puzzle/?do=findComment&comment=446130

A different way to look at frame bracketing.

Z313 + (3 + 9 + 5) =z330 + (1 + 16)

                  17             +              17  =    34

       34frames/.3ft per frame(3.734mph) = 10.2ft

10.2ft refer back to pyramid

 

 

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On 9/1/2021 at 9:10 AM, Chris Davidson said:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25932-the-motorcade-puzzle/?do=findComment&comment=446130

A different way to look at frame bracketing.

Z313 + (3 + 9 + 5) =z330 + (1 + 16)

                  17             +              17  =    34

       34frames/.3ft per frame(3.734mph) = 10.2ft

10.2ft refer back to pyramid

 

 

Use the frame bracketing concept along with the adjusted distance and apply it to the appropriate frame span.

189.7ft (Mark Tyler z330.4—z447.5) + 10.2 + .9 = 200.8ft
264-79 = 184+/24 = 7.666sec/200.8ft =  17.817mph
331-447 =116/18.3 = 6.338sec/200.8ft = 21.552mph
                                                                       3.735mph

 

Tyler-330-447.png

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Hi Chris, 

My latest thinking is that there is a block of frames removed after Z312 not 313. My reasoning is the apparently natural movement of the fragment emitted from the head shown in subsequent frames and that matching two shots (first rear per Rydberg, second frontal) I know its only 1/18 sec but does that effect your calcs? 

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9 hours ago, Eddy Bainbridge said:

Hi Chris, 

My latest thinking is that there is a block of frames removed after Z312 not 313. My reasoning is the apparently natural movement of the fragment emitted from the head shown in subsequent frames and that matching two shots (first rear per Rydberg, second frontal) I know its only 1/18 sec but does that effect your calcs? 

Eddy,

The next shot after the extant 313 shot was fired at the equivalent of approx z322.875, I don't believe there was any reason to remove frames until after that next shot. The limo stop comes closely thereafter.

I base this working within the confines of the Bronson and Wiegman films in regards to timing, which is what these most recent postings are slowly revealing.

The link provided was introduced over three years ago, it's just taken that long to finally put it together in terms of timing.

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24596-shooter-location/?do=findComment&comment=369646

The frame removal process(among other methods) is still valid, but that relationship to the headshot occurances came a little later than I previously believed.

 

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On 8/31/2021 at 8:49 AM, Chris Davidson said:

The Bronson frame(previous post) syncs at approx extant z300.

Bronson-Start.png

From that point, there are a total of 21 more frames in the Bronson film.

21 x 1.525 = 32.025 frames

Z300 + 32 = z332 equivalent

z332 - 5missing Z frames

Please note in the previous gif provided, the police motorcycles front tire, closing on the limo rear tire towards the end of the Bronson clip.

 

 

 

 

 

The flash in Bronson occurs 15 frames after the Z/Bronson sync at extant z300.

15 x 1.525 = 22.875  zframes

300 + 22.875 = extant z322.875

 

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Some more food for thought.

If the extant z313 shot was fired at approx z310 = farther distance than the WC determined TSBD sixth floor to be.

z322.875 - z310 = approx 12.875 frames between shots

12.875/18.3 = .703seconds

I gave an example from the Dal-Tex at approx 338ft for ballistic results, somewhere within this topic.

Don-Thomas.png

Is the acoustic evidence valid?

I don't know.

But it is surely hard to discount at this time.

 

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/6/2021 at 8:33 AM, Chris Davidson said:

Use the frame bracketing concept along with the adjusted distance and apply it to the appropriate frame span.

189.7ft (Mark Tyler z330.4—z447.5) + 10.2 + .9 = 200.8ft
264-79 = 184+/24 = 7.666sec/200.8ft =  17.817mph
331-447 =116/18.3 = 6.338sec/200.8ft = 21.552mph
                                                                       3.735mph

 

Tyler-330-447.png

btw,

If you want to know how to decipher it from the front end, use Myers: (+/- (1frame))

Wiegman 89 + 23.6(24/18.3)x18(313-331) = 112.6 - 79 (real Wiegman reaction) = 33.6 + Myers start at 246.4 = 280 + 7.77 missing(Bronson 3.8 + 3.97) = Wiegman start at 287.77

 

 

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On 9/18/2021 at 1:08 PM, Chris Davidson said:

btw,

If you want to know how to decipher it from the front end, use Myers: (+/- (1frame))

Wiegman 89 + 23.6(24/18.3)x18(313-331) = 112.6 - 79 (real Wiegman reaction) = 33.6 + Myers start at 246.4 = 280 + 7.77 missing(Bronson 3.8 + 3.97) = Wiegman start at 287.77

 

 

If you haven't figured out the missing Z frames yet in relationship to Wiegman's first 11 seconds of Dealy Plaza film, just take the difference between Myer's incorrect start at z246 and the equation above(+/- 1frame).

This should help you understand why the following is so important:

Mr. SHANEYFELT. The camera operates at a speed of 18.3 frames per second. So that in two and a quarter seconds it would run through about 42--41 to 42 frames. 
Representative FORD. Then the firing of the rifle, repeat that again? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. As to the firing of the rifle we have been advised that the minimum time for getting off two successive well-aimed shots on the rifle is approximately two and a quarter seconds. That is the basis for using this 41 to 42 frames to establish two points in the film where two successive quick shots could have been fired. 

Hiding in plain sight!!!!

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