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Unveiling The Limo Stop


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Webb determines the frame rate on Dec6, 1963.

Hoover document, a 33second zfilm on Jan 20, 1964.

33 x 16fps = 528 total frames

528 - 486 = 42 missing frames iteration

33 x 18.3 = 604 total frames

604 frames - 486 = 118 missing frames iteration(explain importance later)

 

Frame-Count.png

 

 

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7 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Reconciling the 42 missing frames (+/- 1).

Besides the pyramid, we need to reference the CE884 data charts.

CE8840e3199c276145f51.png

 

 

A brief reminder:

The pyramid was created piecing together  individual elements supplied by government entities.

Same for the bogus CE884 data charts.

 

 

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Webb determines the frame rate on Dec6, 1963.

Hoover document, a 33second zfilm on Jan 20, 1964.

33 x 16fps = 528 total frames

528 - 486 = 42 missing frames iteration

33 x 18.3 = 604 total frames

604 frames - 486 = 118 missing frames iteration(explain importance later)

 

Frame-Count.png

I can see how this works with the remaining film in the extant film.  And, that's what you are trying to figure out is how many frames are missing from Z 133 to the end.  Is there frames missing from Z 000 to Z 132?  

My curiosity is how may frames did the Zapruder have in the original film.  Zapruder said he did not stop filming.  There is a film gap between Z 132 and Z 133.  Z 133 does not seem to be a faded start up frame.  The p. limo appears magically at Z 133 and the turn onto Elm is missed and what happened in front of the TSBD is also missing.  So, frames are missing in this gap telling a different story.  I estimated by crude methods 22 seconds.  David Josephs and I am not sure if you agree estimated about 15 seconds for that gap.  I am more comfortable using 15 seconds.  

If one uses 18.3 fps, as many do, you come out with a higher number of frames.

33 seconds X 18.3 = 603.9 or 604 frames

15 seconds times 18.3 fps =274.5 or 275 frames.

604 frames plus 275 frames = 879 frames.  

If there are frames missing from Z 000 to Z 132 then that could be added to the count.

Zapruder frames 879 - 604 frames at 33 seconds = 275 frames missing.

IMO, it doesn't matter whether it is 118 or 275 frames are missing.  Either missing frame estimates indicate that considerable data is missing.  Take as an example Z frame 157.  That has several bad editing examples in it.  They are replicated in later frames.  This is something the editors wanted you to see.  But, if there was one example that the Zapruder film editors didn't want to show such as a limo stop or extreme slow down?  The results from either example is we get the wrong view and develop wrong conclusions about the film.

 

Edited by John Butler
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On 8/29/2021 at 9:05 AM, Chris Davidson said:

Pyramid.png

 

Work backwards from extant z352 to 11.1ft forward of the extant z313 shot.

The distance is 19.76ft.

19.76ft/41.2 frames = 5.97mph

5.97mph = 2.24 + 3.735mph- see CE884 combined speeds

zframe 331-352 = 21 frames

20.2+21 = 41.2 frames-

Every other frame removed or a composite of every other frame for that 21 frame span.

Between 41/42 frames should sound familiar if you've been following, because I just recently provided the WC testimony for you.

 

Edited by Chris Davidson
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27 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I can see how this works with the remaining film in the extant film.  And, that's what you are trying to figure out is how many frames are missing from Z 133 to the end.  Is there frames missing from Z 000 to Z 132?  

My curiosity is how may frames did the Zapruder have in the original film.  Zapruder said he did not stop filming.  There is a film gap between Z 132 and Z 133.  Z 133 does not seem to be a faded start up frame.  The p. limo appears magically at Z 133 and the turn onto Elm is missed and what happened in front of the TSBD is also missing.  So, frames are missing in this gap telling a different story.  I estimated by crude methods 22 seconds.  David Josephs and I am not sure if you agree estimated about 15 seconds for that gap.  I am more comfortable using 15 seconds.  

If one uses 18.3 fps, as many do, you come out with a higher number of frames.

33 seconds X 18.3 = 603.9 or 604 frames

15 seconds times 18.3 fps =274.5 or 275 frames.

604 frames plus 275 frames = 879 frames.  

If there are frames missing from Z 000 to Z 132 then that could be added to the count.

Zapruder frames 879 - 604 frames at 33 seconds = 275 frames missing.

IMO, it doesn't matter whether it is 118 or 275 frames are missing.  Either missing frame estimates indicate that considerable data is missing.  Take as an example Z frame 157.  That has several bad editing examples in it.  They are replicated in later frames.  This is something the editors wanted you to see.  But, if there was one example that the Zapruder film editors didn't want to show such as a limo stop or extreme slow down?  The results from either example is we get the wrong view and develop wrong conclusions about the film.

 

Right now, I'm only dealing with the time-span that resides within the Wiegman Dealy Plaza first 11 seconds footage.

I choose not to discuss the other missing parts of the extant films at this time.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Chris Davidson said:

Work backwards from extant z352 to 11.1ft forward of the extant z313 shot.

The distance is 19.76ft.

19.76ft/41.2 frames = 5.97mph

5.97mph = 2.24 + 3.735mph- see CE884 combined speeds

zframe 331-352 = 21 frames

20.2+21 = 41.2 frames-

Every other frame removed or a composite of every other frame for that 21 frame span.

Between 41/42 frames should sound familiar if you've been following, because I just recently provided the WC testimony for you.

 

Fresh in your mind, now take what I provided in regards to Mark Tyler's frame x frame animation and you can readily see that an 11.1ft span forward of extant z313(see pyramid) added to his Wiegman span of where the limo stopped and the Wiegman/Z sync at extant z447, will give the speed difference of 3.735 mph which you can then refer back to CE884 data coinciding as part of the combined/composite speed from above.

Added on edit: Another example of what I refer to as "frame bracketing" for lack of a better description.

 

Edited by Chris Davidson
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  • 2 weeks later...

What total frame count did the WC use in their limo stop missing frames calculation?

Configured after the extant 313 shot:

z313-331 = 18 + 42 excised = 60
18/60frames = .3/1 ratio

60frames/18frames = 3.3333/1 x 2.24mph = 7.4666mph
1 / 3.3333 = .3 =Keep1 remove 2.3333

Whether or not they were going to remove the frames in a consistent pattern or not, the count in terms of frame bracketing was the same.

But, the consistent pattern was disqualified because of the stop itself.

 

 

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The WC took into account the speed of the limo prior to the excising.

Refer back to this posting:https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26525-unveiling-the-limo-stop/?do=findComment&comment=420270

When added to the backend extra distance of 11.1ft (see pyramid), and before the limo started speeding away after stopping, the distance is 18.3ft.

18.3ft/60frames = .305ft per frame

Breaking it down from extant z301-z331 = 30 frames/18.3ft = .61ft per frame = 7.59mph average

If you want to add the missing Z frames that would sync Bronson to Z over the 301-331 span, just add those 7.77 zframes previously posted to the equation above.

30 + 7.77 = 37.77/18.3ft = .4845ft per frame

Split that speed into TWO separate frame rates:

.305 + .18 = .485ft per frame total

You should be quite familiar with these two frame rates by now.

7.2ft.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

What total frame count did the WC use in their limo stop missing frames calculation?

Configured after the extant 313 shot:

z313-331 = 18 + 42 excised = 60
18/60frames = .3/1 ratio

60frames/18frames = 3.3333/1 x 2.24mph = 7.4666mph
1 / 3.3333 = .3 =Keep1 remove 2.3333

Whether or not they were going to remove the frames in a consistent pattern or not, the count in terms of frame bracketing was the same.

But, the consistent pattern was disqualified because of the stop itself.

 

 

Putting the above into an 18.3fps scenario just yields one more frame, hence my including a +1 (61-60)

61/18.3 = 3.333sec...

So, the average removal of frames(not in a consistent pattern) amounted to 2.33 from every 3.33 frames over a 61 frame span = 3.333seconds

2.33frames x 3.333 occurances(combo can vary) = 7.777frames removed = Bronson/Z mismatch sync.

And, if you didn't realize it by now:

18.3fps - 2.33fps = 16fps

What causes extra frame creation in the filming of a moving limo?

The slowing and stopping of said vehicle.

Which allows the removal of extra frames from an extant film or two, while allowing the limo to appear as if it is traveling a constant speed.

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 9/23/2021 at 9:53 AM, Chris Davidson said:

Webb determines the frame rate on Dec6, 1963.

Hoover document, a 33second zfilm on Jan 20, 1964.

33 x 16fps = 528 total frames

528 - 486 = 42 missing frames iteration

33 x 18.3 = 604 total frames

604 frames - 486 = 118 missing frames iteration(explain importance later)

 

Frame-Count.png

 

 

Now that you know the method by which an 18.3fps original at certain spans becomes a 16fps version, just apply that to the total frame count of 604:

16/18.3 = .875 x 604 = 528.5 fames

604-528.5 = 75.5frames

75.5 - 42(see previous posting for that iteration) = 33.5frames

33.5frames = Myers increased speed of the Towner camera fps for his sync to work, which I have previously shown many times to be B.S. And, does not include the total missing Towner splice frames.

The WC/FBI knew the Z fps rate on Dec6 which is approx 1 1/2 months before Hoover's FBI letter.

They had a shooting sequence film that contained 33 x 18.3fps = 604frames approx

If you understand the 18.3/16fps conversion concept, you can move forward with more frame bracketing combos to arrive at the final destination.

Added on edit: I'm quite sure the Z frame rate was known well before Dec6, 1963. That's just the earliest documentation we have for it.

Edited by Chris Davidson
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On 10/6/2021 at 9:33 AM, Chris Davidson said:

Which allows the removal of extra frames from an extant film or two, while allowing the limo to appear as if it is traveling a constant speed.

 

 

 

 

 

Wiegman comes through with flying colors showing us the 2nd cameraman/film, his location

and

PedestalCameraman.gif

 

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