Unveiling The Limo Stop

[John Butler]

Chris D.,

This series of posts are becoming more and more interesting and entertaining.  A third camera man behind Zapruder, and Croft with missing legs in a spliced frame where his legs should be.

You expertise in finding technical errors is now being matched by your keen eye in finding content errors.  I looked over frames prior and frames after.  He has legs before and after the Z 212 splice.

If I am getting this right there are 3 films involved.  One Z 212 with the top half of Croft, a second one without the bottom half of Croft, and a third with both.  2 films altered into a 3rd.

I wonder what JC will have to say about this.  No evidence? No proof? It's just speculation?  There was no alteration!

[John Butler]

There are more problems with Robert Croft.  I really don't know much about him, but from what I have read there should be more of his photos available.

"It was the most gruesome, horrible thing I have ever seen in my life,” he told the Powell Tribune in 1963. "I don’t know if I will ever get over it.”

Croft took 22 images. He has rarely discussed that moment with anyone, including family.”

Where are the other 20 photos?  Are they available?  In particular where is the one where Kennedy is shot? 

“Croft told the Powell Tribune for a story published Nov. 26, 1963, that he was 30 feet from JFK’s limousine when the shots rang out at around 12:30 p.m. Central Time.

During an interview Croft did on April 20, 1988, 25 years after the assassination, with JFK researcher Richard Trask for Trask’s book “Pictures of the Pain,” Croft offered more details on what he witnessed in Dallas.

He said he was winding his camera to get as many photos as possible. He took three, and was trying to snap a fourth when he heard a shot ring out in the concrete canyon of Dealey Plaza.

Croft told Trask the photo was “taken simultaneously with the shot which killed the President,” according to the book.”

And, where was Kennedy shot?  Croft says 30 feet from him.  He was standing near the end of the concrete near the grass on the Southwest corner of Houston and Elm.  In saying 30 feet did he mean east or west of his position?

If 30 feet east of his position then that is further back towards the intersection more than half way past the TSBD.  If 30 feet west then that puts that event about where we see the p. limo in Betzner and Willis.  

Where can a fellow see more of the Croft photos?  Lost or destroyed?

Hmmmm?  Imagine This:

"Online and printed reports, based on an FBI file, state that Croft took 22 images on his roll of 36-exposure Kodachrome-X film before it was processed. Three were of the Kennedy motorcade. One was of the motorcycles in the advance guard; the other two showed the presidential limousine.

The more famous of the photos, frame 18 on the roll, shows first lady Jacqueline Kennedy looking right at Croft. He was standing on the south curb of Elm Street on the driver’s side of the limo, facing the Texas School Book Depository. President John F. Kennedy is next to his wife and is shown in profile.

Texas Gov. John Connally and his wife Nellie are in the middle of the 1961 Lincoln Continental convertible in the jump seats. The driver is Secret Service Agent William Greer, with Secret Service Assistant Special Agent in Charge Roy Kellerman riding next to him in the front seat.

It’s an iconic photo, one of the most famous taken on that day. It appears on dozens of websites and has been published in books, magazines and newspapers.

According to the book, “Matrix for Assassination: The JFK Conspiracy,” Croft took a fourth photo at the scene. He believed it was snapped at the exact moment as the devastating head shot struck Kennedy.

But when he received his photos back from the FBI, this slide was “a complete blank.”

The FBI told him his camera appeared to have malfunctioned at that moment."

And, what else did they do to his photos?  Change things so that they had the content they wanted?  Well, before saying such things one needs to look at all of Croft's photos.

Edited October 24, 2021 by John Butler

[Jonathan Cohen]

8 hours ago, John Butler said:

There are more problems with Robert Croft.  I really don't know much about him, but from what I have read there should be more of his photos available.

And, what else did they do to his photos?  Change things so that they had the content they wanted?  Well, before saying such things one needs to look at all of Croft's photos.

More empty, needlessly conspiratorial speculation from John Butler, who seems to want us to believe that the ever-mysterious, nameless "they" went ahead and "changed things" in Robert Croft's photos to fit with "the content they wanted." These alterationists sure had their hands full, didn't they?

[David Josephs]

8 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

More empty, needlessly conspiratorial speculation from John Butler, who seems to want us to believe that the ever-mysterious, nameless "they" went ahead and "changed things" in Robert Croft's photos to fit with "the content they wanted." These alterationists sure had their hands full, didn't they?

Whole bunch of words to once again add and say nothing.

Well done Jon….  You do understand that these vapid statements of yours will eventually require some substantiation.

But u got opinion and hyperbole down.  Why not find a safe little place to spout ur incredulity… ur WAY outta ur league, or don’t u notice that either?

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Well done Jon….  You do understand that these vapid statements of yours will eventually require some substantiation.

David,

Very accurate.  You and Chris D. are being paid attention to in this series of comments.  Chris D. brought back this post with new info.  Since that time the views have changed from 17.2k to 20.4k in a short period of time.  I hope I have contributed.  I think I have since what is being said has stung a fellow or so of the opposite view.  JC seems to a regular critic of mine.  That pleases me.  I know what I have said has some merit.

As far as Robert Croft's vanishing legs, I don't have an answer for Chris D.  I have noticed in some Z frames that Robert Croft appears to be painted in, but so do other characters on the Southwest Corner of Elm and Houston.  IMO, there is definitely editing going on there.    

 

 

[John Butler]

Here's a montage that might offer some explanation for Robert Croft.  

This montage begins with a frame from the Elsie Dorman film.

I'll finnish this later.

Something seems to be interfering with my posts.  I lost more than half of this post.  I'll re-post below.

Edited October 25, 2021 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Here's a montage that might offer some explanation for Robert Croft. 

This montage begins with a frame from the Elsie Dorman film.  I'll finish this later. 

She Who Must Be Obeyed has called me to task and I have answered.  Now, on to the discussion of the frames in the montage.

Dorman frame:

In this Dorman frame we see Linda and Rosemary Willis running from Houston Street to the SW corner of Houston and Elm.  If we compare this frame to others, we see that the time of the frame is perhaps about 5 seconds or less before the p. limo turns into the intersection of Houston and Elm.  There is a frame montage that shows this fairly well.

 

In this montage we can see Linda with her camera and Rosemary is blacked out.  What we don’t see is Phil Willis or Robert Croft or in the Zapruder frame either.  The man behind the traffic light in the Dorman frame is too short for Robert Croft.  There is also another problem.  Linda and Rosemary are not in the first part of the Zapruder film from Z 000 to Z 132.  But, in Dorman they are on the corner when the first motorbikes make the turn and are seen in Zapruder for 132 frames.

The Willis girls said they ran along side their father, Phil to get to the SW corner.  This is not true according to Dorman.  And, because of Phil’s extra long leg in Z 157 I suspect he may have not been there at all.  So, who took his slides?  Linda, perhaps. 

Well, what about Robert Croft?  With his height, youth, and long legs he should have beaten Linda and Rosemary to the corner.  Was he there on the corner?  We have to assume he was since there is little evidence to the contrary.  Lacking legs and appearing as if painted in certain frames is not enough evidence.  Say, for purposes of discussion, was there anyone there that could of taken his slides?  Is there some controversy here?

Yes, there was!!!  In Dorman we see two men standing about where Croft is standing in Zapruder.  In Dorman, we don’t see Croft.  In Zapruder, we don’t see the two men.  Who are these two fellows?  They are two newsman, Pierce Allman and Terry Ford.  In Dorman they are taking pictures.  In Zapruder they are not there.  What happened to their cameras and film?

 

Pierce Allman said the shooting (head shot, If I am remembering correctly) occurred directly in front of him.  There is also something else that is very interesting.  The two women in the black coat and tan coat are seen in Zapruder closer to Houston Street.  Here, in Dorman they have less then 5 seconds to get there where they are seen in Zapruder.  It is not a great distance, but the woman in the black coat disappears in Zapruder.  That mean anything?  Ah, it just another vanishing person.

What am I saying?  Basically, from what I see in an analysis of Dorman and Zapruder, plus what I have learned from others, the whole intersection of Houston and Elm is a stage set with characters moved in and out of the films to justify the official story.

Huh?  The man’s crazy.  Let’s start with the intersection of Elm and Houston at the crosswalk between the Dal-Tex and the Court Records building.  Jack White said years ago that the scene as show in Zapruder is fraudulent.  Or conversely, the scene of the crosswalk in Altgens 5 is fraudulent.  Not a single person was the same in that area in Zapruder and Altgens.  Jack, I believe, favored Zapruder for the reality there.  I don’t.

Next, we have Mannequin Row.  This is the area between the lamppost at the corner of the TSBD and the Stemmons sign.  There are 19 people standing there.  They are suspicious because they don’t seem to move that much, hence Mannequin Row.  In other films and photos, we’ll use Bronson as an example, there are less people there by half or so.  This is very suspicious indeed.

Now, back to Elsie Dorman and the Willis girls.  We see in the Dorman frame that Linda has beaten her sister in the run to the SW corner.  She stops to take photos as Rosemary races ahead.  We see this in the Dorman frames and also in Zapruder.  What else do we see?  Or, don’t?

The Vanishing Sister:

Linda vanishes in the Zapruder frames.  She is there in Z 147, Z 161, but not in Z 179.  They are not there in the Zapruder film before the Zapruder Gap, Z 000 to Z 132.  They appear afterwards from Z 133, or maybe they made it there in the Zapruder Gap, which I think is probable.  They showed up at the SW corner during the Zapruder Gap. This is indicated by the Dorman film.

The problem with that is Rosemary, in Dorman, has nearly completed her run to the grass,  But, in Zapruder which is later in time, she starts her run beginning at Z 133.

 

Another problem we see here, is that the two women one in blue and the other in black are out of place according to Zapruder.  In early Zapruder, before the Gap, these two women are not on the corner at all.  After the Gap, they may have been moved up by Houston Street if they are there at all.

To end this, it is my belief that the intersection of Houston and Elm as seen in the Zapruder film is a stage set built from the ground up.  Do I have any evidence for this?  Some.  John Costella thought so.

First off people vanish from one film to the other.  People seen in films and photos are not the same in a particular area.  Jack White indicated the crowd at the crosswalk between the Dal-Tex and the Court Records building is not the same, not a single person is the same in Zapruder and Altgens 5.  The group of people between the lamppost and the Stemmons sign is very suspicious.  There are 19 people there and in Bronson the film shows about half that number there. 

And, I have indicated various people seen in one film and not the other.  The count of people on the SW corner varies in one film from the other at the same time.     

Edited October 25, 2021 by John Butler

[Chris Davidson]

55 minutes ago, John Butler said:

The Vanishing Sister:

Linda vanishes in the Zapruder frames.  She is there in Z 147, Z 161, but not in Z 179. 

 

John,

Linda is there after extant 179.

She enters into the shadow cast by the structure which makes it somewhat difficult to see her.

It appears she eventually drops her right arm down, from up near her face, after exiting the shadow and keeps her left arm up, as if she is shading her eyes.

Of course with that said, there is still this coincidence(JFK's incredibly fast head turn and Linda's incredibly fast arm drop within the shadow) occurring at the same (two frame) splice time.

Watch closely.

 

 

 

[John Butler]

Chris D.,

I'm not doubting what you say.  I've said on several occasions that you have a keen eye.  I'm just not seeing it.

Linda has on a light blue blouse and a dark blue skirt in Dorman.  I can't find that in the Zapruder frame.  The best I can see where she should be is a set of female legs in a dark blue skirt.  I think there may be a person in a yellow shirt of jacket standing just to her front.  If that's not her I don't see anything else.

There's a person behind Howard Brennan and the retaining wall with a light blue shirt or blouse.  But, I think that person is a male.  There is definitely a lot going on there on the SW corner in the two films that just don't jive.

It was easy for me to see that Linda had vanished since several others had in the two films.  Maybe, too easy.  I've looked through the Z 180's up to Z 195 and still don't see anything other than what I have described. 

Frame Z 161 has Linda back around the corner nearer to Houston Street than where the Dorman films shows her location.  She is behind Howard B. on the walk near Houston.  She should be there in Z 179.  What's there is the female legs and dark skirt with a yellow top.  That could very well be Linda or not.  They are in the same place within 1/2 seconds time.   

Edited October 25, 2021 by John Butler

[Chris Davidson]

 

5 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

John,

Linda is there after extant 179.

She enters into the shadow cast by the structure which makes it somewhat difficult to see her.

It appears she eventually drops her right arm down, from up near her face, after exiting the shadow and keeps her left arm up, as if she is shading her eyes.

Of course with that said, there is still this coincidence(JFK's incredibly fast head turn and Linda's incredibly fast arm drop within the shadow) occurring at the same (two frame) splice time.

Watch closely.

 

 

 

Sorry about the previous response.

The girl in the red box is the one I'm referring to who is in Zapruder.

It doesn't sound like it's Linda Willis.

I believe that's the Willis family in the Bronson frame, but I don't see Linda there among them if she was in a light blue blouse and a dark blue skirt.

If Linda(light blue blouse and a dark blue skirt) is the lady running around the corner with RoseMary in Dorman, Bell and Martin, remember this is occurring before extant Z starts filming.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Chris Davidson

[Chris Davidson]

Here she is again (red boxes).

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

 

Sorry about the previous response.

The girl in the red box is the one I'm referring to who is in Zapruder.

It doesn't sound like it's Linda Willis.

I believe that's the Willis family in the Bronson frame, but I don't see Linda there among them if she was in a light blue blouse and a dark blue skirt.

If Linda(light blue blouse and a dark blue skirt) is the lady running around the corner with RoseMary in Dorman, Bell and Martin, remember this is occurring before extant Z starts filming.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very interesting.  I wonder who the person in the red box is?  Of that group of people in Dorman standing there only the lady in the tan coat with the white collar makes into the Zapruder film.  If you say the lady in the red box does, I'll look for her. 

In the left hand Bronson frame those folks are generally accredited to be the Willis family, the grand parents, Phil, Marilyn, Linda, and Rosemary.  They can also be seen in Skaggs in about the same place. 

"I believe that's the Willis family in the Bronson frame, but I don't see Linda there among them if she was in a light blue blouse and a dark blue skirt."

I don't see Linda either in blue.  There is someone standing by the grandmother whose name I use to known.  Maybe that's her.  Could be Mrs. Willis and the other female is Linda.  It is hard to say.  There maybe color differences for Bronson there.

"The girl in the red box is the one I'm referring to who is in Zapruder.

It doesn't sound like it's Linda Willis". 

I seem to recall someone else thought that was Linda.  I don't recall who, perhaps it was Chris Bristow.  He'll probably read this and let us know.  I remember arguing with someone that wasn't Linda because of her dark hair.

 

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Here she is again (red boxes).

I have to compliment again.  That is some catch to see that. I believe it is Linda.  She even looks like she has her camera.  And, she would be in about the right position for the Dorman film.  But, Rosemary should have completed her run to the grass unless she stopped momentarily.  I believe it is less than a minute from Dorman to this Z frame.

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by John Butler

[Chris Davidson]

On 10/24/2021 at 1:53 AM, Chris Davidson said:

Besides missing Croft's legs in extant z212, what other problems arise?

How is it possible that Clint has the background(red box) from extant z208 appear in front of him?

Which coincidentally, is inline with the double image angling Stemmons sign post between the sprocket holes.

Advanced film editing 101!!!

 

 

What object/s passed in front of Croft while being filmed from the pedestal.

Look close enough and that unknown object(inner red box) could morph into a cycle cop.

And, while that's occurring, the Stemmons sign parallax problem might come into existence.

 

 

[Chris Davidson]

4 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

What object/s passed in front of Croft while being filmed from the pedestal.

Look close enough and that unknown object(inner red box) could morph into a cycle cop.

And, while that's occurring, the Stemmons sign parallax problem might come into existence.

 

 

Using the same split (Stemmons Sign) frame above and applying it to the previously supplied FBI (angled sprocket hole) frame below.

The split frame(left side of frame) is angled 1.3° CCW in relation to the frames right side.

The original FBI frame had upper/lower sprocket holes at differing angles to each other.

Using the FBI frame now oriented with the lower sprocket hole square to its main frame, now note the angle alignment (red arrows) between the split frame and the FBI upper sprocket hole.

Not quite exact, but it should give you a better idea of how the FBI version ended up the way it is.

Original FBI sprocket hole comparison below:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26525-unveiling-the-limo-stop/?do=findComment&comment=448596