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Was it really just a MOLE HUNT about "Oswald?"


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2 hours ago, John Butler said:

From my notes put on the forum once before:

Lee Oswald And Harvey Oswald And Their Rank Anomalies

 

 

From David Josephs timeline for Oct. 24, 1956.  This is the day that Harvey Oswald enters the Marine Corps.

 

While Harvey Oswald was at Boot Camp in San Diego, there are indications that Lee Oswald was also in the Marine Corps and assigned to the Marine Corps Air Facility (MCAF) at El Toro. Sergeant David Wallace Ransberger recalled that during his initial tour of duty at El Toro in 1956, he became acquainted with a Private First Class Oswald.”

 

On this day, Oct. 24, 1956 Harvey enters the Marine Corps with the rank description of Private/E1.  He won’t earn that rank until completing training.  Obviously, there was some kind of status for pay.  On Oct. 24, 1956, is at or on his way to boot camp at the training center for the Western U. S. at San Diego. 

 

This is impossible situation for a single individual named Lee Harvey Oswald.  The situation is best explained by the Harvey and Lee theory.  It is one of the many “smoking guns” of the Harvey and Lee story. 

John,

Let’s be careful with this.  John A’s source for the Ransberger interview was WC Document 140, p. 3; FBI interview of David Wallace Ransberger by SA Harold E. Newpher, 12/5/63.

Here’s a link to WCD 140, p. 3.

As you can see, at least according to the FBI, Ransberger “recalled that OSWALD was either a Private or a PFC who was ‘always alone.’”  Doesn’t sound very definitive, unless you see something I don't.

OTOH, just a couple of months later, on Jan. 7, 1957 we learn that “Oswald,” who had a tonsillectomy on 1/17/45, was diagnosed with tonsillitis.  

 

tonsilectomy.jpgtonsillits.jpg

H&L critics tell me this sort of thing happens all the time, but it seems to me it mostly happens to “Oswald.”
 

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5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

Let’s be careful with this.  John A’s source for the Ransberger interview was WC Document 140, p. 3; FBI interview of David Wallace Ransberger by SA Harold E. Newpher, 12/5/63.

Fair enough.  But, if you think this thing through it is more than likely that Lee Oswald was a PFC during the fall of 1956.  Let's take Harvey's early Marine career as an example of what Marines usually do during the first months and year in the Marine Corps.  They do something like this. First, basic combat training and then comes advanced combat training.  The typical Marine is then sent to a line company for further combat training with his unit.  Others, who have been singled out for some other specialty training are usually sent to that training after advanced combat training. 

Harvey was training to be a combat marine from Oct., 1956 to May, 1957.  That's roughly a 6 month or more period of time.  Then in May, 1957 he takes off for further training at Jacksonville.  Then once he has trained at Jacksonville he should move off to a Marine job or further training.  He goes to Memphis for further training until Sept.  Then he goes AWOL.  That's not typical, but the idea of combat training and then specialty training then off to a Marine job is the way of things.

So, when did Lee do his basic combat training and how long did that take?  Did he do it at San Diego?  When did he do his advanced combat training and how long did that take?  Where was that done?  Where did he do his training for aircraft maintenance and repair and how long did that take?  How long did all of this take.  I would say long enough to be promoted to PFC before he was sent to El Toro repair battalion to work in maintenance and repair with SGT Ransberger. 

Harvey was promoted to PFC on May 1, 1957.  This is sort of an automatic promotion after 6 months.  Lee kept his nose clean also and was probably promoted after 6 months in service while he was doing advance combat training like Harvey, but earlier.

This was a promotion that was probably before he was trained in maintenance and repair and before he showed up at El Toro to work at the repair battalion in maintenance and repair.

5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

OTOH, just a couple of months later, on Jan. 7, 1957 we learn that “Oswald,” who had a tonsillectomy on 1/17/45, was diagnosed with tonsillitis.  

 

Speaking of care.... Oswald had this tonsillectomy when he was 5 years old.  Tonsils have a tendency to grow back if they are removed before they are fully grown which occurs at the 8th year or later.  If not all of the tonsils were removed they have a tendency to grow back.  About 10% do anyway for no particular reason.     

 

   

Edited by John Butler
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John,

You make a good case for Lee’s USMC training, and John A. certainly agrees with you about which Oswald Ransberger interacted with in 1956.  I just got a little concerned when I checked the FBI report, because I doubt John thought a thing about the timing significance of a PFC vs private classification and so he didn’t describe that aspect.  I didn’t think about it either until you started talking about it.

I know the tonsillectomy/tonsillitis situation is less than definitive, but, if memory serves, most people who have their tonsils removed don’t have tonsillitis within 12 years or so later, though some clearly do, and, second, it just enrages H&L critics who work so hard to manufacture great umbrage about this and the trainload of other evidence for two Oswalds.  It’s hard not to be amused by the outrage.

Getting back to the Landesberg story, the significance of the claim by Rizzuto/student Landesberg  that he met Oswald in the summer of 1956 at Camp Lejeune probably escaped the notice of many JFK researchers.  If Rizzuto/Landesberg was right, it just HAD to be Lee, sort of confirming the Ransberger report suggesting that LEE entered the Marine Corps well before Harvey.

What did not escape the notice of many researchers were the NYC newspaper articles indicating, to use Joachim Joesten’s phrase, that a “false Oswald” was active as a political provocateur on the East Coast at the very time Classic Oswald® was in Russia. We can add this observation to the Bolton Ford incident, the testimony of Marita Lorenz, and many more incidents, including trips to Cuba during during the very same time frame.

For example:

FROM: SAC (New York)
TO: Director FBI
Enclosed for each recipient is one copy of a self-explanatory Army communication dated 12.30.63 captioned Harvey Oswald.
Enclosed Army communication alleges that Oswald was in Cuba in the company of Robert Taber, former head of Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC), approximately three weeks after the April 1961, Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba.

Let’s not forget Hoover’s remark, written on the very day of the assassination, that Oswald “went to Cuba on several occasions but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for."

Oswald_to_Cuba_1.jpgOswald_to_Cuba_2.jpg

I’ll bet that memo would have been deep-sixed within days if Hoover hadn’t sent it to so many people!

One thing I don’t recall involves your statement from the other day that “Another controversial aspect of this [the Lanesberg] story puts Lee Oswald in Russian in 1960.”  Are you sure of that?
 

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4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

One thing I don’t recall involves your statement from the other day that “Another controversial aspect of this [the Lanesberg] story puts Lee Oswald in Russian in 1960.”  Are you sure of that?
 

It's about post cards from Europe and Russia.  It is what Steve H. Landesburg alias Rizzuto said.  Here's what I wrote earlier:

"After his Marine service he kept in touch with L’eandes by post card.  L’eandes sent post cards from Stockholm, Leningrad, and Moscow in 1960.  L’eandes was accompanied by Lee Harvey Oswald and Earl Perry in their journeys around Europe and Russia in 1960.  Rizzuto was told by L’eandes that Oswald was back in the states and had gone to Texas."

These kind of things are important for my bias.  Or, speculation if you will.  Here's the evidence for Lee Oswald in Russian at the moment.  (Nothing that really says he is there)

1.  There is a picture of Marina hugging some guy who is not Harvey Oswald.  She seems to be enjoying the hug.  Most other photos don't show her that happy being with Harvey.  The unknown guy hugging Marina I assume to be Lee Oswald.  It would be nice to know when that photo was taken so a check against the known appearances of Lee Oswald could be made.

2.  Steve H. Landesburg, alias Rizzuto, says he received post cards from Russia- Leningrad when Leandes and Oswald were there in 1960.

3.  The Steenbarger interview puts Lee Oswald in Germany in mid-October 1959.  It a short distance to Helsinki.  What was he doing in Germany, anyway?

4.  David Josephs says that there are two different signatures for Oswald in Helsinki.  One real and one false.

5.  IMO, Lee Oswald should have been the one sent to Russia.  Being a language bumpkin would have been an advantage.  Lee Oswald served for the longer period in radar.  He visited more mysterious government bases involving U2s and radar then Harvey.  He must have been trained in aircraft maintenance and repair according to the Ransberger incident.  He knew more about the U2 than Harvey.  Harvey didn't stay in the same barracks with U2 maintenance and repair people.  Lee did.  Harvey didn't serve at Atsugi, but Lee did.  Harvey has a suicide scar on the wrong wrist.  I wonder about Lee?  Harvey wouldn't have been able to tie his shoe if it involved mechanics or electronics.

These are some of the speculations about Lee Oswald might have been in Russia at the same time as Harvey.

 

 

Edited by John Butler
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John,

You and Steve Thomas seem to be the ones with a handle on the possibility of another Oswald in Russia, or at least an Oswald persona.  I do recall point 1 in your post above, but points 2 and 3 don’t ring any memory bells at all.  (Helsinki and Germany are at opposite ends of the Baltic Sea, though, as you imply, I’m pretty sure that there is no record of Oswald—either Oswald—being in Germany). 

Why don’t you dig up the appropriate documents and quote them, along with a brief bibcite? This would go a long way toward supporting what you believe the images might show.

I have to disagree with you on point 5 above.  The whole idea of the “defection,” I think, was to send a young man to the Soviet Union who understood the Russian language but pretended he didn’t so he could overhear conversations and read documents no one suspected he could comprehend.

The fact that Lee knew more about the U2s than Harvey was an added benefit.  If the Soviets decided to torture Harvey instead of giving him a cushy job and an apartment in Minsk, he really wouldn’t have had much to say about the U2.

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harvey-marina-lee-marina-compare.jpg

If you can't see the difference I can't help you.  As for the other gotcha questions I don't have time to answer them.

 

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According to the “Evolution of Lee Harvey Oswald” poster, the photo above left was taken on December 22, 1962 in a Dallas bus station photo booth.  I’m not sure about the right-hand shot. 

If you are pointing out differences in the earlobes, I simply can’t tell the difference (though I’ve often admitted here that I’m not good with faces).  What is noticeable to me, though, is that the Oswald on the left image above has what John Pic and one or two others called a “bull neck.”  In the right image above, Oswald SEEMS to have a much thinner neck.

If this isn’t just a matter of lighting and shadows or camera angles or lenses, if there really is a difference in the necks, it would suggest the photo at left is LEE and the photo at right is HARVEY.  Does that agree with your analysis?

That said, I’ve always believed that you cannot rely merely on photos to make judgments about facts in this case. It is simply too easy to mess with photos and to misrepresent them. Which is why I suggested you might want to provide details of the Landesberg/Rizzuto comments about the post cards from Russia and the Steenbarger interview, which I’m not familiar with. These were hardly intended to be “gotcha” questions, but if you want to take offense about them, so be it....

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6 hours ago, John Butler said:

harvey-marina-lee-marina-compare.jpg

If you can't see the difference I can't help you.  As for the other gotcha questions I don't have time to answer them.

Gentlemen,

The photo on the right is that of actors Beata Pozniak and Gary Oldman in the respective roles of Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald in Oliver Stone's film JFK.  We are always on shaky ground when trying to draw conclusions about photos without examining the images in context and verifying their authenticity.

James 

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On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2020 at 10:17 PM, James Norwood said:

Gentlemen,

The photo on the right is that of actors Beata Pozniak and Gary Oldman in the respective roles of Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald in Oliver Stone's film JFK.  We are always on shaky ground when trying to draw conclusions about photos without examining the images in context and verifying their authenticity.

James 

James,

I just watched JFK.  I didn't see the scene below anywhere in the movie.  Could you be more explicit on why you think this is actors rather than Marina and an unknown?  Could you show a film clip with this scene in it?  Before I can go along with this I need more verification. 

lee-and-marina-in-embrace.jpg

One of the reasons I think this is an unknown is that Harvey Oswald's identification features are different from this individual.  Harvey Oswald's left ear has different characteristics than this individual's left ear.  Here's Harvey!

oswald-and-marina-3a.jpg

Harvey has a distinct left ear with two bends or crooks in the upper rim.  This is a major identifier for those photos in question about whether the individual is Harvey or not.  The individual in question does not have this characteristic.  Here's Lee!

oswald-closeup-flight-training-a1.jpg

Lee does not have unattached ear lobes.  This is a major difference to Harvey.  Now, let's consider Gary Oldman!  OBTW!  Does Lee have a pen in his mouth in this photo also?

Here's Gary!

gary-oldmans-well-pronounced-earlobes.jp

Gary Oldman has very pronounced, wide earlobes.  He doesn't appear to fit the photo.

However, If you can show a clip of JFK showing the Lee and Marina scene I'll then sit up an pay attention. 

This photo of Lee and Marina has been on the internet for years identified as Lee and Marina.  This is the first instance I have heard that this might be Beata Pozniak and Gary Oldman.

I've sent for a copy of the movie.  I have software that will allow you to look at each frame of the movie separately.  And, for as long as you want.  I'll go over it again to see if I can find that scene.  I'll let you know the results.

From Jim Hargrove:

"If you are pointing out differences in the earlobes, I simply can’t tell the difference (though I’ve often admitted here that I’m not good with faces).  What is noticeable to me, though, is that the Oswald on the left image above has what John Pic and one or two others called a “bull neck.”  In the right image above, Oswald SEEMS to have a much thinner neck."

If you can't see the difference in Harvey's ear and the guy in the Lee and Marina scene then how in the world can you see a bull neck or lack of bull neck in a side view of any Harvey or Lee photos.  You can only see the "famous" bull neck of Oswald in a frontal view and not from the side view.  It's strange but go look at the photos. 

Funny how things look differently when you look at things closely and not rely on a bunch of deceptive, manipulated, and out right false documents which have been sanitized before there release.

 

 

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7 hours ago, John Butler said:

One of the reasons I think this is an unknown is that Harvey Oswald's identification features are different from this individual. 

John,

It's uncanny how much alike these two individuals looked. It's no wonder so many people got them mixed up. I saw a couple of things though:

the shape of the nose, the shape of the chin, the bony (or supra orbital) ridge above his left eye socket.

image.thumb.png.359bc7224df6d275527912ce0272c9c0.png

I think I know where that square chin in the backyard photos came from.

Steve Thomas

 

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12 hours ago, John Butler said:

However, If you can show a clip of JFK showing the Lee and Marina scene I'll then sit up an pay attention. 

This photo of Lee and Marina has been on the internet for years identified as Lee and Marina.  This is the first instance I have heard that this might be Beata Pozniak and Gary Oldman.

I've sent for a copy of the movie.  I have software that will allow you to look at each frame of the movie separately.  And, for as long as you want.  I'll go over it again to see if I can find that scene.  I'll let you know the results.

John,

I don't know if this is really proof, but the photo in question does show up on the Internet Movie Database with the caption: "Beata Pozniak & Gary Oldman as Marina & Lee Harvey Oswald in Oliver Stone's 'JFK'"

See THIS IMDB PAGE, about three quarters of the way down.

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41 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

I don't know if this is really proof, but the photo in question does show up on the Internet Movie Database with the caption: "Beata Pozniak & Gary Oldman as Marina & Lee Harvey Oswald in Oliver Stone's 'JFK'"

See THIS IMDB PAGE, about three quarters of the way down.

I didn't see it in the film.  JFK is coming in tomorrow and I will go through the film again.  This time frame by frame.  It's tedious, but it should either show that scene or not.  I'll let you know one way or the other.

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

John,

It's uncanny how much alike these two individuals looked. It's no wonder so many people got them mixed up. I saw a couple of things though:

the shape of the nose, the shape of the chin, the bony (or supra orbital) ridge above his left eye socket.

Thank Steve,

That's what I am beginning to think now.  Prior, my opinion was that they looked sufficiently different, but similar enough to fool people as long as their was some time difference in between the time the witness saw Harvey or Lee and the occasion when they remembered it later.  But, I offer this.  From most accounts people think that both Lee and Harvey were at the TSBD on the day of the assassination.  At least that is my opinion based on the Martin film.  So, they looked sufficiently alike to pull that off even as adults. 

I believe that they were chosen as children based on these photos.  The characteristics I have listed are real and can identify the two individuals as children.  They don't look exactly alike, but close enough for government work.

 

Harvey-and-Lee-as-young-children-a.jpg 

Edited by John Butler
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7 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

John,

It's uncanny how much alike these two individuals looked. It's no wonder so many people got them mixed up. I saw a couple of things though:

the shape of the nose, the shape of the chin, the bony (or supra orbital) ridge above his left eye socket.

image.thumb.png.359bc7224df6d275527912ce0272c9c0.png

I think I know where that square chin in the backyard photos came from.

Steve Thomas

 

Steve,

Your comment surprises me.  As you’ll probably agree, the photo above left is of LHO and Marina probably taken in Nov. 1962 in a photo booth at a Dallas bus station.  The photo above right seems to show LHO seven years earlier in a Civil Air Patrol meeting in New Orleans. David Ferrie is in the same image.

Of course, conventional wisdom is that these photos show the same young man taken seven or so years apart.  Just to be certain, are you saying that you believe they are two different persons?  

John A, John B and others (including me) believe that the image with Marina shows the Russian-speaking "Lee Harvey Oswald" killed by Jack Ruby.  We think the CAP photo shows the American youth born as Lee Harvey Oswald.

Do you agree with that last paragraph above, or do you have a different interpretation?

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55 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

Your comment surprises me.  As you’ll probably agree, the photo above left is of LHO and Marina probably taken in Nov. 1962 in a photo booth at a Dallas bus station.  The photo above right seems to show LHO seven years earlier in a Civil Air Patrol meeting in New Orleans. David Ferrie is in the same image.

Of course, conventional wisdom is that these photos show the same young man taken seven or so years apart.  Just to be certain, are you saying that you believe they are two different persons?  

John A, John B and others (including me) believe that the image with Marina shows the Russian-speaking "Lee Harvey Oswald" killed by Jack Ruby.  We think the CAP photo shows the American youth born as Lee Harvey Oswald.

Do you agree with that last paragraph above, or do you have a different interpretation?

Jim,

I haven't studied the Harvey and Lee theory enough to make an intelligent decision yet, but yes, I believe these are photographs of two different people.

Back when I was in college, I took an anthropology course and spent some time looking at different skull structures. In the various photos taken of LHO, I've tried to look beyond the facial features and tried to analyze the skull structure underneath.

I'm also trying to correlate the surly, uncommunicative, anti-social Oswald with the pointy-chin guy, and the gregarious, outgoing Oswald with the broader-chinned guy.

I wish Billy Joe Lord had been asked to describe the Oswald he took a trip with on the S.S. Marion Lykes.

I get mixed up. Is the pointy-chin and narrow nose guy Harvey, or is it vice versa?

Steve Thomas

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