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Oswald's 30-minute phone call


Ron Ecker
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Ron,

About 4:00 p.m. on November 23, 1963, Detective M.G. Hall of Homicide and Robbery Bureau called me and stated that Lee Harvey Oswald had requested permission to use the telephone and told me it would be o.k. I called J.L. Popplewell who was on duty on the fifth floor and told him to put Oswald on the phone. Popplewell called back within twenty or thirty minutes and said that Oswald had not been able to complete his call. He said Oswald told him that his party would not be in until later in the evening. I relayed this information to Detective Hall, who asked that Oswald be allowed to use the phone again at that time. I went to the fifth floor about 8:00 o’clock and told Popplewell to let Oswald use the phone again if he wanted to use it.

Is it possible that the later call in the evening was to Ruth Paine?

She told the WC that Oswald called her twice about 4:00 in the afternoon on the 23rd and then a third time - she said was around 9:30. PM.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/paine_r2.htm

In his first call around 4:00 PM, she said that Oswald asked her to call John Abt after 6:00 PM

Mrs. PAINE - I said, "Well, Hi." And he said he wanted to ask me to call Mr. John Abt in New York for him after 6 p.m.

What is puzzling here, is how did LHO know that John Abt would not be available until after 6:00 PM?

Mrs. PAINE - In this interim then, I suppose I talked to some more news people but I want to get to the next important point which was that Lee called again.

Mr. JENNER - A third time?

Mrs. PAINE - I really call the first two one, but it was twice dialed.

Mr. JENNER - Fix the time, please.

Mrs. PAINE - It was around 9:30 in the evening.

Maybe Oswald was calling to see if she had been able to reach Abt.

Mrs. PAINE - In the meantime, had you sought to reach John Abt?

Mrs. PAINE - I had, after 6 o'clock, thank you. I had dialed both numbers and neither answered.

Mr. JENNER - Neither answered. Was there any conversation between you and Lee Oswald in the evening conversation to which you reported to him your inability to reach Mr. Abt?

Mrs. PAINE - I do not specifically recall.

Mr. JENNER - Or the subject of Mr. Abt at all?

Mrs. PAINE - I don't want to get in, to rationalization. I can judge that something was said but I do not recall it specifically.

Steve Thomas

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Researchers are rightly curious about the “Raleigh call” that Oswald tried unsuccessfully to make from jail to a John Hurt in Raleigh, NC around 10:45 pm on Saturday, November 23, 1963.  But there is a perhaps more significant call that Oswald made around 8 pm that evening, because that call apparently went through: Oswald talked to someone for about 30 minutes. Who did he talk to, and why have the records of this phone call been suppressed?

On page 74 of Chief Curry’s book Retired Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry Reveals His Personal JFK Assassination File, there is a notarized “Affidavit of Any Fact” signed by Thurber T. Lord and dated August 20, 1964. It reads as follows:

“May (sic) name is Thurber T. Lord. I entered the Dallas Police Department on November 11, 1942. I was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant of Police and assigned to the Service Division as Jail Lieutenant on March 29, 1960. I was on duty in this capacity on November 22, and 23, 1963, working 2:30 p.m. to 10:30 p.m. About 4:00 p.m. on November 23, 1963, Detective M.G. Hall of Homicide and Robbery Bureau called me and stated that Lee Harvey Oswald had requested permission to use the telephone and told me it would be o.k. I called J.L. Popplewell who was on duty on the fifth floor and told him to put Oswald on the phone. Popplewell called back within twenty or thirty minutes and said that Oswald had not been able to complete his call. He said Oswald told him that his party would not be in until later in the evening. I relayed this information to Detective Hall, who asked that Oswald be allowed to use the phone again at that time. I went to the fifth floor about 8:00 o’clock and told Popplewell to let Oswald use the phone again if he wanted to use it. Popplewell put Oswald in the telephone booth and was standing near by. I called to Popplewell and told him that Oswald was entitled to make his call privately. Popplewell was advised to keep Oswald in view but to stay back a reasonable distance. Oswald was in the telephone booth about thirty minutes, making his call and then talking to his party. After Oswald completed his call he was returned to his cell by J.L. Popplewell.”

I have been unable to find this Lord affidavit anywhere in the online Warren Commission volumes. I also did not find it in the DPD online JFK collection. On the Nook of Eclectic Inquiry website, there is a list (link below) entitled “Warren Commission, Dallas Police Department Documents,” which identifies the affidavit of Thereby (sic) T. Lord as CD No. 1444d. There is also a J.L. Popplewell affidavit identified as CD No. 1444g. Where are these documents? Also listed are affidavits by Arthur E. Eaves (CD 1444e) and Buel T. Beddingfield (CD 1444f). Both the Eaves and Beddingfield docs relate to phone calls that Oswald made or attempted to make earlier in the day, and both are found online in the WC materials. But what happened to the Lord and Popplewell docs relating to the 8:00 p.m. call? Also listed as CD 1444c is “Telephone sheets on prisoner’s telephone calls for November 22, 23, and 24, 1963.” Where is this document?

Doc list:

http://www.jmasland.com/cd-n.htm

On page 930 of his book Harvey and Lee, John Armstrong states, “At 8:00 pm Oswald was again allowed to use the telephone. He spoke for about 30 minutes while officer J.L. Popplewell stood nearby. Curiously, there are no DPD telephone logs to identify the telephone number which Oswald called or the party with whom he spoke for 30 minutes.”

Armstrong’s source on the 8:00 pm 30-minute phone call is cited (footnote 247) as the WC testimony of DPD officer Richard Sims. But there is no reference at all to such a call in the testimony of Sims, who did not see Oswald after 4:15 pm that day. Not only did Armstrong apparently make a mistake in his cite, but nowhere does he cite what must be the primary sources, the Lord and Popplewell affidavits. Did Armstrong not find them? And if he didn’t, what was his source? The copy of the Lord affidavit in Curry’s rare book? (Hopefully Jack White can find out Armstrong’s source if he doesn’t know, as he proofed Armstrong’s book.)

Armstrong also states that “According to DPD telephone operators, two unidentified men were eavesdropping on Oswald’s conversation in the next room.” What is his source for that? I believe Armstrong is simply assuming this because the later “Raleigh call” was monitored by two unidentified men according to operator Treon. It may well be true about the 8:00 pm call as well, since the records of it have apparently been suppressed, but it’s an educated guess, not a known fact.

In any case, Armstrong goes on to state the importance of the 8:00 pm call: “A 30 minute phone call by the accused assassin of the President of the United States could have been extremely important. It appears the people monitoring, and perhaps recording, Oswald’s phone call wanted the identity of the caller and the substance of the conversation kept secret. What happened to the police logs of this call, and who did Oswald talk to for 30 minutes?”

I also wonder why Chief Curry chose to publish an apparently suppressed document in his 1969 book. (The caption says, “An affidavit indicating that Oswald was allowed to use the telephone several times at his request.”) I wonder if Curry was trying to tell us something. If so, the HSCA apparently did not pick up on it. I know of no interest that the HSCA showed in Oswald’s 30-minute phone conversation with a party or parties unknown.

Ron

Ron...I emailed your questions to John. Here are his replies:

1.

Jack,

On page 930 I wrote the following about Oswald’s 30 minute telephone conversation:

“At 8:00 pm Oswald was again allowed to use the telephone. He spoke for about 30 minutes

while officer Popplewell stood nearby.”

247 (footnote)

Nov 22/23-55 (this notation refers to an affidavit by Thurber L. Lord that was included

on the CD-ROM in my book)

I re-read page 930 of my book and was surprised that I did not footnote the source

of the information provided by the telephone operators (two unidentified men listening to Oswald's conversation at 4:00 pm). I have no excuse. I simply forgot to cite my source document, and all of my documents have been in storage for the past year and a half.

John

2.

Jack-

Here is the document that I included in the CD-ROM with the book.

John

Below is the document:

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Ron...I emailed your questions to John. Here are his replies: . . .

247 (footnote)

Nov 22/23-55 (this notation refers to an affidavit by Thurber L. Lord that was included

on the CD-ROM in my book)

Jack,

Thanks. When I was looking for the info in his book, I completely forgot that it has a CD with it. I'll have to check it out to see what other goodies are on it. (I knew that the "Nov 22/23-55" was referring to something that I didn't understand. However, the 247 footnote still appears to be in error in citing the Sims testimony - see the reference to it on page 936 - as that testimony makes no reference to the call in question.)

I might as well point out a more serious error that I've come across in using John's book as a reference (I don't know when I'll get the chance to actually read the whole tome). This is in reference to Steve Thomas's question in another thread about who the Secret Service agent was who was supposedly present at Oswald's first and second interrogations on 11/22. Armstrong states, "Captain Fritz, Sims, Boyd, and Secret Service Inspector (Thomas J.) Kelley were present during Oswald's 1st interrogation (p. 878) . . . Captain Fritz, SA Hosty, SA Bookhout, Secret Service Inspector Kelley, and Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels were waiting for Oswald when DPD detectives returned him to Fritz's office after the (4:35 pm) lineup was over" (p. 892).

It was impossible for SS Inspector Kelley to have been present. He testified that he was in Louisville, KY on 11/22, and arrived in Dallas that evening after being ordered there by Chief Rowley. Kelley states in his written report (WR p. 626) that he attended his first Oswald interrogation at 10:35 am on 11/23.

BTW I like the way that Arlen Specter corrected SS Inspector Kelley during his testimony about JFK's wounds (Kelley had inspected the triple overpass and concluded that the throat wound could not have been caused by a shot from the overpass):

Mr. KELLEY. From the evidence that has been shown previously, the wound in the throat was lower on the President's body than the wound in the shoulder, and----

Mr. SPECTER. By the wound in the shoulder do you mean the wound in the back of the President's neck, the base of his neck?

Mr. KELLEY. Yes.

Ron

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Is it possible that the later call in the evening was to Ruth Paine?

Steve,

I don’t believe the 30-minute call was to Ruth Paine because of her description of the call (which she thought was around 9:30 pm):

Mr. JENNER - What did he say and what did you say?

Mrs. PAINE - He said, "Marina, please," in Russian. . . . And I would be fairly certain that I answered him in English. I said she was not there, that I had a notion about where she might be, but I wasn't at all certain. That I would try to find out. . . . He felt irritated at not having been able to reach her. And he wanted me to--

Mr. JENNER - Did he sound irritated?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes; he sounded just a slight edge to his voice. And he wanted me to deliver a message to her that he thought she should be at my house.

Mr. JENNER - And he so instructed you?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - That is what he said?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes. That was so far as I remember, the entire conversation. . . .

Mr. JENNER - . . . Was there any conversation between you and Lee Oswald in the evening conversation to which you reported to him your inability to reach Mr. Abt?

Mrs. PAINE - I do not specifically recall.

Mr. JENNER - Or the subject of Mr. Abt at all?

Mrs. PAINE - I don't want to get into rationalization. I can judge that something was said but I do not recall it specifically.

Mr. JENNER - Now, have you given the full extent of that conversation?

Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my recollection. . . .

Mr. JENNER - Was the assassination mentioned at all?

Mrs. PAINE - No; it was not.

Mr. JENNER - Was the shooting or murder of Officer Tippit mentioned?

Mrs. PAINE - No.

Mr. JENNER - You have given everything that was said in that conversation as best you are able to recall it at the moment?

Mrs. PAINE - That is right. I then tried the only thing I knew to do, to try to reach Marina.

That certainly doesn’t sound like a 30-minute call. It’s possible, of course, that they talked about other things that Paine did not want to mention to the commission. Oswald might have told her, for example, that he now knew why she had helped get him that job at the TSBD. That could have led to a very long discussion. Or it’s possible that Oswald made more than one call, and the call to Paine was as short as she implies in her testimony.

Ron

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Ron...I emailed your questions to John. Here are his replies: . . .

247 (footnote)

Nov 22/23-55 (this notation refers to an affidavit by Thurber L. Lord that was included

on the CD-ROM in my book)

Jack,

Thanks. When I was looking for the info in his book, I completely forgot that it has a CD with it. I'll have to check it out to see what other goodies are on it. (I knew that the "Nov 22/23-55" was referring to something that I didn't understand. However, the 247 footnote still appears to be in error in citing the Sims testimony - see the reference to it on page 936 - as that testimony makes no reference to the call in question.)

I might as well point out a more serious error that I've come across in using John's book as a reference (I don't know when I'll get the chance to actually read the whole tome). This is in reference to Steve Thomas's question in another thread about who the Secret Service agent was who was supposedly present at Oswald's first and second interrogations on 11/22. Armstrong states, "Captain Fritz, Sims, Boyd, and Secret Service Inspector (Thomas J.) Kelley were present during Oswald's 1st interrogation (p. 878) . . . Captain Fritz, SA Hosty, SA Bookhout, Secret Service Inspector Kelley, and Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels were waiting for Oswald when DPD detectives returned him to Fritz's office after the (4:35 pm) lineup was over" (p. 892).

It was impossible for SS Inspector Kelley to have been present. He testified that he was in Louisville, KY on 11/22, and arrived in Dallas that evening after being ordered there by Chief Rowley. Kelley states in his written report (WR p. 626) that he attended his first Oswald interrogation at 10:35 am on 11/23.

BTW I like the way that Arlen Specter corrected SS Inspector Kelley during his testimony about JFK's wounds (Kelley had inspected the triple overpass and concluded that the throat wound could not have been caused by a shot from the overpass):

Mr. KELLEY. From the evidence that has been shown previously, the wound in the throat was lower on the President's body than the wound in the shoulder, and----

Mr. SPECTER. By the wound in the shoulder do you mean the wound in the back of the President's neck, the base of his neck?

Mr. KELLEY. Yes.

Ron

Ron...Here is John's response:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Jack,

I did not "guess" that Inspector Kelley was present at Oswald's interrogation-I got it from documents. If the documents that I found were wrong then then they are wrong, but I obtained that information from documents. After 3300 footnotes, I simply cannot remember many of the documents from where I obtained my footnotes. Seems to me, although I am by no means certain, that Kelley's name appeared on a DPD report as one of the people who was in attendance. Ask Ron to check my footnotes and read the documents that I included on the CD-ROM about LHO's interrogations. Perhaps his name is on one of the documents that I included.

John

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Dave,

Thanks. The first thing I did was a Google search after I couldn't find the doc in the WC materials online. I found nothing on the web search. But I didn't know about Google Group search. I used that a few minutes ago and found the usenet post with the affidavit right away.

One learns something new every day. Google Group search is good to know about.

Ron

_____________________

How does one do a "gogle group search"? I just type in names, like JFK, and anyother name in which I am interested, as one google search. Is this what hou mean? I have a feeling it is not.

thanks,

Dawn

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Dave,

Thanks. The first thing I did was a Google search after I couldn't find the doc in the WC materials online. I found nothing on the web search. But I didn't know about Google Group search. I used that a few minutes ago and found the usenet post with the affidavit right away.

One learns something new every day. Google Group search is good to know about.

Ron

_____________________

How does one do a "gogle group search"? I just type in names, like JFK, and anyother name in which I am interested, as one google search. Is this what hou mean? I have a feeling it is not.

thanks,

Dawn

ps Sorry bout the typos above.

Dawn

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Dave,

Thanks. The first thing I did was a Google search after I couldn't find the doc in the WC materials online. I found nothing on the web search. But I didn't know about Google Group search. I used that a few minutes ago and found the usenet post with the affidavit right away.

One learns something new every day. Google Group search is good to know about.

Ron

_____________________

How does one do a "gogle group search"? I just type in names, like JFK, and anyother name in which I am interested, as one google search. Is this what hou mean? I have a feeling it is not.

thanks,

Dawn

ps Sorry bout the typos above.

Dawn

Google Groups

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Ron...I emailed your questions to John. Here are his replies: . . .

247 (footnote)

Nov 22/23-55 (this notation refers to an affidavit by Thurber L. Lord that was included

on the CD-ROM in my book)

Jack,

Thanks. When I was looking for the info in his book, I completely forgot that it has a CD with it. I'll have to check it out to see what other goodies are on it. (I knew that the "Nov 22/23-55" was referring to something that I didn't understand. However, the 247 footnote still appears to be in error in citing the Sims testimony - see the reference to it on page 936 - as that testimony makes no reference to the call in question.)

I might as well point out a more serious error that I've come across in using John's book as a reference (I don't know when I'll get the chance to actually read the whole tome). This is in reference to Steve Thomas's question in another thread about who the Secret Service agent was who was supposedly present at Oswald's first and second interrogations on 11/22. Armstrong states, "Captain Fritz, Sims, Boyd, and Secret Service Inspector (Thomas J.) Kelley were present during Oswald's 1st interrogation (p. 878) . . . Captain Fritz, SA Hosty, SA Bookhout, Secret Service Inspector Kelley, and Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels were waiting for Oswald when DPD detectives returned him to Fritz's office after the (4:35 pm) lineup was over" (p. 892).

It was impossible for SS Inspector Kelley to have been present. He testified that he was in Louisville, KY on 11/22, and arrived in Dallas that evening after being ordered there by Chief Rowley. Kelley states in his written report (WR p. 626) that he attended his first Oswald interrogation at 10:35 am on 11/23.

BTW I like the way that Arlen Specter corrected SS Inspector Kelley during his testimony about JFK's wounds (Kelley had inspected the triple overpass and concluded that the throat wound could not have been caused by a shot from the overpass):

Mr. KELLEY. From the evidence that has been shown previously, the wound in the throat was lower on the President's body than the wound in the shoulder, and----

Mr. SPECTER. By the wound in the shoulder do you mean the wound in the back of the President's neck, the base of his neck?

Mr. KELLEY. Yes.

Ron

Ron...Here is John's response:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Jack,

I did not "guess" that Inspector Kelley was present at Oswald's interrogation-I got it from documents. If the documents that I found were wrong then then they are wrong, but I obtained that information from documents. After 3300 footnotes, I simply cannot remember many of the documents from where I obtained my footnotes. Seems to me, although I am by no means certain, that Kelley's name appeared on a DPD report as one of the people who was in attendance. Ask Ron to check my footnotes and read the documents that I included on the CD-ROM about LHO's interrogations. Perhaps his name is on one of the documents that I included.

John

Ron...additional response from John:

Jack,

I have been thinking about Ron's comments concerning my footnotes relating to Inspector Kelley's presence at LHO's interrogation.

There is no doubt in my mind that several people (named in documents) placed Kelley at LHO's interrogation sessions on November 22. If these people are accurate, then Kelley was lying when he said that he did not arrive in Dallas until November 23rd. But why?

I am not an expert on the whereabouts or testimony of SS personnel. But I have learned that it is often necessary to place more trust in third parties (in this case, people who said Kelley was at LHO's interrogation on Nov 22) than in the testimony of the individual in question (in this case Kelley). If Kelley was lying then he (like Ruth Paine, Robert Oswald, Marina, and so many others) had something to hide.

John

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  • 5 years later...
Researchers are rightly curious about the "Raleigh call" that Oswald tried unsuccessfully to make from jail to a John Hurt in Raleigh, NC around 10:45 pm on Saturday, November 23, 1963. But there is a perhaps more significant call that Oswald made around 8 pm that evening, because that call apparently went through: Oswald talked to someone for about 30 minutes. Who did he talk to, and why have the records of this phone call been suppressed?

On page 74 of Chief Curry's book Retired Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry Reveals His Personal JFK Assassination File, there is a notarized "Affidavit of Any Fact" signed by Thurber T. Lord and dated August 20, 1964. It reads as follows:

"May (sic) name is Thurber T. Lord. I entered the Dallas Police Department on November 11, 1942. I was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant of Police and assigned to the Service Division as Jail Lieutenant on March 29, 1960. I was on duty in this capacity on November 22, and 23, 1963, working 2:30 p.m. to 10:30 p.m. About 4:00 p.m. on November 23, 1963, Detective M.G. Hall of Homicide and Robbery Bureau called me and stated that Lee Harvey Oswald had requested permission to use the telephone and told me it would be o.k. I called J.L. Popplewell who was on duty on the fifth floor and told him to put Oswald on the phone. Popplewell called back within twenty or thirty minutes and said that Oswald had not been able to complete his call. He said Oswald told him that his party would not be in until later in the evening. I relayed this information to Detective Hall, who asked that Oswald be allowed to use the phone again at that time. I went to the fifth floor about 8:00 o'clock and told Popplewell to let Oswald use the phone again if he wanted to use it. Popplewell put Oswald in the telephone booth and was standing near by. I called to Popplewell and told him that Oswald was entitled to make his call privately. Popplewell was advised to keep Oswald in view but to stay back a reasonable distance. Oswald was in the telephone booth about thirty minutes, making his call and then talking to his party. After Oswald completed his call he was returned to his cell by J.L. Popplewell."

I have been unable to find this Lord affidavit anywhere in the online Warren Commission volumes. I also did not find it in the DPD online JFK collection. On the Nook of Eclectic Inquiry website, there is a list (link below) entitled "Warren Commission, Dallas Police Department Documents," which identifies the affidavit of Thereby (sic) T. Lord as CD No. 1444d. There is also a J.L. Popplewell affidavit identified as CD No. 1444g. Where are these documents? Also listed are affidavits by Arthur E. Eaves (CD 1444e) and Buel T. Beddingfield (CD 1444f). Both the Eaves and Beddingfield docs relate to phone calls that Oswald made or attempted to make earlier in the day, and both are found online in the WC materials. But what happened to the Lord and Popplewell docs relating to the 8:00 p.m. call? Also listed as CD 1444c is "Telephone sheets on prisoner's telephone calls for November 22, 23, and 24, 1963." Where is this document?

Doc list:

http://www.jmasland.com/cd-n.htm

On page 930 of his book Harvey and Lee, John Armstrong states, "At 8:00 pm Oswald was again allowed to use the telephone. He spoke for about 30 minutes while officer J.L. Popplewell stood nearby. Curiously, there are no DPD telephone logs to identify the telephone number which Oswald called or the party with whom he spoke for 30 minutes."

Armstrong's source on the 8:00 pm 30-minute phone call is cited (footnote 247) as the WC testimony of DPD officer Richard Sims. But there is no reference at all to such a call in the testimony of Sims, who did not see Oswald after 4:15 pm that day. Not only did Armstrong apparently make a mistake in his cite, but nowhere does he cite what must be the primary sources, the Lord and Popplewell affidavits. Did Armstrong not find them? And if he didn't, what was his source? The copy of the Lord affidavit in Curry's rare book? (Hopefully Jack White can find out Armstrong's source if he doesn't know, as he proofed Armstrong's book.)

Armstrong also states that "According to DPD telephone operators, two unidentified men were eavesdropping on Oswald's conversation in the next room." What is his source for that? I believe Armstrong is simply assuming this because the later "Raleigh call" was monitored by two unidentified men according to operator Treon. It may well be true about the 8:00 pm call as well, since the records of it have apparently been suppressed, but it's an educated guess, not a known fact.

In any case, Armstrong goes on to state the importance of the 8:00 pm call: "A 30 minute phone call by the accused assassin of the President of the United States could have been extremely important. It appears the people monitoring, and perhaps recording, Oswald's phone call wanted the identity of the caller and the substance of the conversation kept secret. What happened to the police logs of this call, and who did Oswald talk to for 30 minutes?"

I also wonder why Chief Curry chose to publish an apparently suppressed document in his 1969 book. (The caption says, "An affidavit indicating that Oswald was allowed to use the telephone several times at his request.") I wonder if Curry was trying to tell us something. If so, the HSCA apparently did not pick up on it. I know of no interest that the HSCA showed in Oswald's 30-minute phone conversation with a party or parties unknown.

Ron

Hi Ron,

here's the affidavit of Popplewell:

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT

My name is J.L. Popplewell. I entered the Dallas Police Department January

11th, 1957. I have worked the fifth floor jail most of this time. The 23rd day

of November, 1963, at 3PM, I was assigned to guard the area in front of Lee

Harvey Oswald's cell, watching all of his movements to see that he didn't hurt

himself. At about 4PM Lt. Lord called on the jail phone and instructed me to

put Oswald on the phone. Oswald asked the operator for two telephone numbers -

then asked me for pencil and paper while in the telephone booth. I tore a small

piece of plain paper, about two by three inches from the telephone record sheet

that hung outside the telephone booth; then handed this piece of paper and my

pencil to him. Oswald wrote a number on this paper and then returned my pencil

to me. Then he asked if he could call later. Oswald did not get his call

through at this time. I called Lt. Lord and informed him that Oswald did not

get his party and wanted to call again later. About 8PM Lt. Lord came up to the

jail and told me to let Oswald use the phone. I was instructed to step back

away from the booth so the phone call could be private. From this location I

watched the prisoner talking to someone. He used the phone about thirty

minutes. I asked Oswald if he got his call through and he answered, yes. I then

returned him to his cell.

About four months ago on a Monday, I received a call from an FBI agent who

wanted to know about a slip of paper with a phone number on it. This was

supposed to have been in Oswald's pocket when he died. The agent asked if we

allowed prisoners to keep phone numbers on their person. I said that if a call

wasn't completed the first time, we could let them write the number down and

keep it for a later call. The agent asked me the size of the paper I might have

given Oswald to write on. I told him it was probably torn off of a telephone

record sheet hanging outside the telephone booth; that the paper was plain,

unmarked, about two by three inches. The telephone sheet is usually used for

writing names of prisoners who use the phone, but due to the large volume of

prisoners that weekend, it was possible I missed writing Oswald's name down on

it. I have been unable to locate a sheet with his name on it.

Subscribed and sworn August 20th, 1964

Here's a picture of Thurber T. Lord.

Both he and his wife Dahlia are deceased.

I don't think this involves either of the failed attempts to call Apt or Hurt.

It appears that on this occassion, his call got through as he talked for a half hour.

That's not five minutes, or ten minutes, or twenty minutes. That's a long time.

Who was he talking to?

BKelly

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Perhaps a backtrack in time sequence with the q of ''why?'' in mind might yield an answer?

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What is puzzling here, is how did LHO know that John Abt would not be available until after 6:00 PM?

[Mr. JENNER] - In the meantime, had you sought to reach John Abt?

Mrs. PAINE - I had, after 6 o'clock, thank you. I had dialed both numbers and neither answered.

Calling both Abt's office and home line? Suspicion or knowledge of phone tap on Abt?

What sort of pre-briefing, and by whom, would lead public leftist LHO to call John Abt - at the same time that he was appparently trying to get John Hurt to vouch for his intel credentials?

He seems to have been staying in Lefty Lee character to rope in Abt, while trying to get Army intel to square him with DPD and Wade. As if it were the Bringuier incident again, and he was calling the FBI again (or Hurt as its situational equivalent) to bail him out.

Edited by David Andrews
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