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Posted (edited)

I've wondered a while about this.  The angle of the shot through his nipple.  It damaging his wrist badly before exiting, then imbedding into his thigh.  More lead left behind than was missing from the magic bullet.  Which in addition to causing all of Connally's injuries went down from the TSBD into JFK's back at T3, turned upward to exit below his Adams Apple.  THEN turned downward to enter JC's arm pit unless he's bent over, which he's not .  

The angle.  Yes, the limo was headed slightly down hill, but a shot from the 6th floor of the TSBD does not go in JC's arm pit, traverse and breaking a rib, then out his nipple.  As there was no magic bullet, a shot from the TSBD 6th floor going in his arm pit would most likely have destroyed his bowels.  So the shot came from behind, much lower.  Dal-Tex, second floor, miss of the back of the right of JFK's head?  Necessitating frontal shots, arm and umbrella up?

Regarding JC's wrist then leg wound...  Would one bullet maintain enough velocity entering the back of the arm pit, traversing/breaking the rib, exiting the nipple, smashing the wrist, to imbed in the thigh?  Much less after going through JFK' back and neck?  

I don't recall in Zapruder JC ever lifting his wrist high enough to be hit with a shot from his arm pit/nipple, from Dal-Tex, then his  his thigh?  Maybe a separate shot, from a different angle?  Kellerman did mention a flurry of shots.  

Edited by Ron Bulman
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Ron Bulman said:-
I've wondered a while about this.  The angle of the shot through his nipple.  It damaging his wrist badly before exiting, then imbedding into his thigh.  More lead left behind than was missing from the magic bullet.  Which in addition to causing all of Connally's injuries went down from the TSBD into JFK's back at T3, turned upward to exit below his Adams Apple.  THEN turned downward to enter JC's arm pit unless he's bent over, which he's not .  
The angle.  Yes, the limo was headed slightly down hill, but a shot from the 6th floor of the TSBD does not go in JC's arm pit, traverse and breaking a rib, then out his nipple.  As there was no magic bullet, a shot from the TSBD 6th floor going in his arm pit would most likely have destroyed his bowels.  So the shot came from behind, much lower.  Dal-Tex, second floor, miss of the back of the right of JFK's head?  Necessitating frontal shots, arm and umbrella up?


Ron I have felt for a while that it is time again to look at John Connally’s wounds. The expert in this area is Gary Murr and you ought to read the two volumes of his work on John Connally that he has publicly released. I am not aware part 3 has been published for forum members. I write these words having been outside Connally research for some time.
In my view the Connally wounding is the key to the SBT. In Gary’s fourth appearance at Lancer he described the path of the bullet through Connally’s Thorax. His description suggested - and it compliments what he says in chapter 1 of his book - that the bullet was very shallow through his muscles. I remember thinking - when watching the video - the path of the bullet must be close to skin depth. I contacted Gary and he was pleased I had noticed this.


In our many email conversations Gary constantly reminded that that you cannot understand Connally’s wounds without first understanding his position in the car when he was wounded: it is Connally’s position that explains the wounds. In an email exchange Gary made the following point:
one factor that to my way of thinking most influenced the flight path of the striking missile that generated the thoracic wound site is the anatomical position of the Governor at impact. I feel that it is virtually certain that he was not sitting anatomically erect, nor for that matter, erect and anatomically turned to his right - but that is my opinion. I do feel that the preponderance of physical evidence leads me to believe that the Governor was turned to or virtually on his left side at the moment he was struck in the back - but again that is my opinion.

One point about this description is that it explains a point Gary constantly said. He maintained that this trajectory of the bullet was acute. Such a description also takes you away from TSBD sixth floor west window and - possibly - to the east window. A bullet fired from the east window would indeed create an acute trajectory angle. In Gary’s book he publishes a picture that shows - at mid-day on the 22nd - there actually was a corridor between the east and west windows. It was easily possible to move between positions of the east and west windows and - remember - the east window was open throughout the assassination.

Like Gary I believed as a truth that however this wound was created in John Connally it had nothing to do with the SBT. However - and I am happy to explain it in another post - I tended to agree with Connally as to when he was wounded. I could not get past the Z190 period when Nellie pulls John out of danger. In my view Connally had to have been wounded by that point. However I am now re-thinking. This acute bullet trajectory would not be possible at Z234. Gary’s fourth Lancer presentation has really forced me to rethink my old assuptions. I was shocked at how shallow this bullet’s wound was and it has made me re-think.

Ron Bulman said:-
I don't recall in Zapruder JC ever lifting his wrist high enough to be hit with a shot from his arm pit/nipple, from Dal-Tex, then his  his thigh?  Maybe a separate shot, from a different angle?  Kellerman did mention a flurry of shots.  


Gary and I are in perfect agreement to Connally’s radial wound.
And as you will know, I have felt for a very, very long time that the radial wound was not a part of this thoracic impact but rather a result of a very irregular fragment from the fatal head shot.

People may not readily realise that Z 313 and 314 are moments when Connally’s right arm is seen to be raised. The debris form JFK’s head wound moves in a downward trajectory towards Connally. We both believe that what damages the radial is a fragment and not a pristine whole bullet. There is only one moment when bullet fragments are present in the car and that is Z 313 - Z 314. I refer you to chapter 2 of Gary’s book where this wound is fully described.


That leaves the leg wound. As Gary describes in chapter 3 this would caused much perplexity. In my opinion it was probably caused by a fragment but from where is another question.
James

 

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Posted (edited)

Let's see.  Connally is hit by two bullets and JFK was shot in the head how many times?  Two or three?  Then one in the back or throat?  The reason I ask is that the bullet count is going way up beyond 3 with one missing the vehicle.  That's coming closer to Jean Hill's 4 to 6 shots.

Edited by John Butler
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The late Tom Purvis, who was a forum member here, came up with a theory that Connally was hit by two bullets...or at least one "not magic" bullet and another bullet fragment. Purvis had much of his work published inthe Greenville, MS newspaper prior to his death. His theory was that Connally was hit tangentially on the fifth (??--going from memory here) rib, the wound exiting at his nipple, while he was turned to his right. THEN, after being pulled into Nellie's lap, he was hit by another bullet or bullet fragment at the "disappeared" third shot, the one surveyed in PAST the Z-313 location by Robert West & Co. but edited out by Spector, Shaneyfelt & Co. during the Warren Omission hearings.

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57 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

The late Tom Purvis, who was a forum member here, came up with a theory that Connally was hit by two bullets...or at least one "not magic" bullet and another bullet fragment. Purvis had much of his work published inthe Greenville, MS newspaper prior to his death. His theory was that Connally was hit tangentially on the fifth (??--going from memory here) rib, the wound exiting at his nipple, while he was turned to his right. THEN, after being pulled into Nellie's lap, he was hit by another bullet or bullet fragment at the "disappeared" third shot, the one surveyed in PAST the Z-313 location by Robert West & Co. but edited out by Spector, Shaneyfelt & Co. during the Warren Omission hearings.

For a long time Mark that was my view. During that Z 280 - 312 sequence - after being wounded - I was convinced Nellie turned Connally away from danger. And at 313 - while still being turned and Connally also had his right hand raised - he is injured in his radial from a fragment of the head shot.

Now I am not sure when Connally received the thorax wound. What I will say is that I am still convinced the radial wound was caused by a fragment from the head shot. Gregory was very clear that whatever caused the radial would was not a pristine bulled:

James

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Posted (edited)

Thanks David,

That does sound like an ambush that is more realistic then just shots from the TSBD by a lone nut. 

3 directions?  Back, front left and front right?  Shots from the County Records building, perhaps the TSBD or Dal-Tex.  From the west meaning the Grassing Knoll or Railroad Underpass.  And from the other Grassy Knoll which I think is the east.  These are the three best spots and directions.  Others can be added, but I feel that they are of lesser weight.

From the rear I lead with the County Record building because of Elsie Dorman, Junior Jarman, and a 30.06 case found years later on top of the building.  That seems more substantial then other witnesses who said there was shooting from the TSBD and others who said there was no shooting from the TSBD. 

According to the statements of the witnesses in the TSBD that were the closest to the Sniper's Nest there would be a great deal of difficulty proving anyone shot from the Sniper's Nest.

Edited by John Butler
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On 5/17/2020 at 2:47 PM, James R Gordon said:

For a long time Mark that was my view. During that Z 280 - 312 sequence - after being wounded - I was convinced Nellie turned Connally away from danger. And at 313 - while still being turned and Connally also had his right hand raised - he is injured in his radial from a fragment of the head shot.

Now I am not sure when Connally received the thorax wound. What I will say is that I am still convinced the radial wound was caused by a fragment from the head shot. Gregory was very clear that whatever caused the radial would was not a pristine bulled:

James

James, you mention in a prior post Gary Murr's two volumes of work on Connally.  I thought I'd read a post here by him in the last year or two with a link to them though it seems it might have been time sensitive, expired in a week or two.  I did a web search using his name and JFK but came up with nothing relating to Connally.  Do you or anyone else know if these are available, if so where?  I've always found his posts here enlightening.

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Ron the work is called "Controling the Past." It is actually a three volume set. I am not sure Gary has made the final volume public to the Forum. He did make pasts 1 &2 public.

I was busy on other things and I forgot to download copies. There must be members who did download parts 1 & 2.

You are probanbly right, Gary most likely did make his links time sensitive,

P.S. If you do a search for "Controlling the Past" you will find the links. However I checked and the links are no longer active. PM Gary, he will most likely give a new link. It looks like I am right that Gary did not release Vol 3.

James.

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Hello all

The evidence on the physical events of that day has evolved a lot over the years. Perhaps the best synthesis is by Dr. Donald Thomas in ‘Hear no Evil’.

In terms of this specific discussion many problems occurred due to force fitting the timing of this shot to the scenarios required by the Warren Commission and then the HSCA which created all sorts of anomalies. Many honestly presented ideas were based on inevitably partial information at the time and really should have fallen by the wayside by now.

There is a very good fit across all the data to a single shot impacting on Connolly by Z224 having also caused JFK’s back and neck wounds.

This bullet was clearly not CE399 (the magic bullet) which was an absurd invention by the Warren Commission.

The acoustic evidence is actually very convincing when you follow the debate on it through over the years...it was such a shame the HSCA fudged that to force fit it to their model of the head shot. The model presented by Thomas is highly consistent across the full range of evidence and strongly suggests five shots from three shooters. A piece of a ricochet hit JFK in the back of the head causing the high positioned wound and one set of fractures, the single bullet hitting his back and Connally and the the fatal head shot from the grassy knoll at z313. A fragment of one of the missed shots hit Tague.

We are at a point now where a genuine consensus could (and I very strongly think should)  be developed around the model presented by Thomas, building on the work of so many others over the years.

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Andrew,

              I am quite busy at the moment but your argument I do not believe fits the facts.

              Point 1. If you look at the JFK Shirt thread you will see that there is definite proof that the bullet entered at T3. It is slightly right of centre and if you look at the Stare of death picture the exit - if you support the SBT - is also slightly right of centre.The route between these two points would require the bullet would require to damage the spine. But worse - as I am sure Cliff will remind you both distance between back and throat and angle of trajectory would have to climb would create an impossibility.

              Point 2 Have you looked at how Connally is turned at Z 223/4. He is turned to the right and there is no trajectory that would allow a bullet exiting JFK to strike JBC under the shoulder If Connally were seated facing forward then it might be easier - even though it would not fit the facts of the case. But the way he is turned it is not possible unless you are Dale Myers

              Point 3. I believe - though correct me if I am wrong - the angle of trajectory between JFK and Connally was 21º. However the angle traveling down Connally's rib cage is somewhere around 40º. Until the bullet smacked into Connally's 5th rib the bullet came in contact with no bony structure. So what changed the trajectory of the bullet - giving you the benefit that the SBT is possible at all.?

Maybe you want to think about these points. And they are not the most difficult points.

James.

          

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