Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Steve Ulman]

Of course, such statements are worthless, since the "American intelligence officials" could be the same people who made the tape.

Ron-

All joking aside - just who would you trust to authenticate the tape???

Stephen -

My memory is the same as Ron's - almost as soon as the tape was discussed on the news it was referred to as "authentic / authenticated".

Since this is not the first time that ben laden has taken credit for the attack and noting that the thrust of this tape seems to have been to exonerate Moussaoui - there hasn't been an overwhelming need (for anyone) to exploit the tape.

Edited June 2, 2006 by Steve Ulman

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Thank you Gentlemen.

[Ron Ecker]

All joking aside - just who would you trust to authenticate the tape???

Nobody, except Bin Laden himself, his real nose and all, on videotape. (Maybe audio is all he can afford.)

BTW do you trust "American intelligence officials"? On what basis?

[Guest]

I've tried to communicate intelligently with Andy Walker before.

I guess I must have been out of the country when this wonder occurred... sorry I missed it

[Len Colby]

Most 9/11 "inside job" theorists believe that the Boeing 757's and 767's involved in the 'attacks' were remotely controlled by the plotters.

There seems to be two schools of thought.

1) All Boeings or at least all 757's and 767's have built in remote control capability that overrides the pilots and seemingly disables the plane's communication systems (radios and "Air Phones").

2) such capability was surreptitiously added to the four planes involved shortly before 9/11.

What I have yet to see is any evidence that such technology exists for large passenger planes or if it exists could be applied to those two Boeing models. I have seen it mentioned claimed on CT sites (without citation) that Boeing researched such technology to thwart hijackers but haven't seen any indication the research developed operational systems or was implemented. Also even if such a technology exists it would make sense that it would cut off communications.

Boeing denises it developed this technology. I really doubt such a system would be seriously considered, making the plane land at an airport other than the one demanded by hijackers would endanger the passengers and crew. The last hijacking in which a plane was in the air or got diverted of a US carrier or flight starting in the US was in 1988, the last with fatalities (17 deaths) was a Pan Am flight from Karachi in 1986, the last hijacking with a fatality of a flight flying in the US was in 1983. Hijackings with fatalities even on foreign flights and airlines are extremely rare, I only found 7 cases with more than 2 deaths in the 20 years preceding 9/11 only one, a 1994 Air France flight from Marseille ( 7 deaths) was on an airline from or a flight starting in a developed country. Several 757s and 767s were hijacked and there are no reports of the planes being remotely controlled. [ Paragraph above based on info from the following databases http://aviation-safety.net/database/dblist...〈=en&page=7 and http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/database.cgi ]

Nor have I seen reasonable explanations as to how remote control capability could have been added later (theory 2) without extensive retrofitting and dozens (if not hundreds) maintenance people from American and United being involved and others at those airlines to make sure those specific planes were assigned the designated flights. Another problem with the 2nd theory (and 1st) is Boeing's design philosophy that allows pilots to override the computerized systems. Also the 777 (developed years after the 9/11 models) was Boeings first "fly by wire" (i.e. flight controls are electronic rather than mechanical) model [ http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/boe202.shtml ]

OK 9/11 CTists – give it your best shot.

Len

Edited June 4, 2006 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

On another thread Ron wrote:

A good example on 9/11 is the government's claim that no black boxes were found at Ground Zero. A couple of workers have described helping find the black boxes in a book about Ground Zero. So who are you going to believe? If it's a choice between the government with its track record for truth and two workers helping out at Ground Zero, I'll believe the workers. I'll soon be citing examples of blatant 9/11 government lies in the thread of Flight 93.

To which I replied:

Two men made that claim one of whom is a Ground Zero volunteer named Michael Bellone. He was recently arrested by NYFD fire marshals for possession of stolen NYFD property, a "charity" he runs owes money to several creditors, including the company that printed the book. He is also in the habit of posing as a NYC fireman and calling himself the "safety director" at Ground Zero. He sounds like a habitual xxxx / con man to me.

The other was a veteran fireman and friend of Bellone whose name escapes me but has made no public comments about this. He is quoted in a single sentence of a book published and co-authored by Bellone. My theory is that Bellone made it up and his friend not wanting to embarrass him doesn't say anything.

The story seems odd to me. The FBI had over 1000 agents in NYC after 9-11 trained in evidence recovery who frequently investigate plane crashes. If they wanted to secretly find the black boxes why would they involved a fireman and a volunteer?

Also 9-11 CTists believe the CVR tape from flight 93 and the FDR data from flight 77 were faked. If they have the technology to fake CVR tapes and FDR data why wouldn't they calim to have useable tapes from all 8 recorders with info that reinforced the "OCT"?*

Ron (or anybody else) if you want to debate this case start a new thread

Len

* I highlighted the paragragh above because Ron has yet to address it.

To which Ron replied:

Michael Bellone did not claim to help find the black boxes at Ground Zero. He said he observed their recovery. The worker who helped federal agents find the black boxes was fireman Nicholas DeMasi, who describes the recovery (three boxes out of a total of four) in one paragraph of his article in the book about Ground Zero.

"If they wanted to secretly find the black boxes why would they involved a fireman and a volunteer?"

Is it possible that at the time they looked for and found the black boxes in September 2001, the federal agents knew nothing of any government intent to keep it a secret?

Things have changed, of course, since the 9/11 Commission has stated that no black boxes were found. (Would it lie?) When Will Bunch of the Philadelphia Daily News tried to locate DeMasi for comment, he was unsuccessful. My hunch is, if DeMasi is still alive he ain't talkin'.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050205232325/...al/10033802.htm

"Michael Bellone did not claim to help find the black boxes at Ground Zero. He said he observed their recovery."

Partially true "Bellone said he was on the scene when DeMasi and three FBI agents found one of the boxes but said the other two were uncovered in different locations, adding the agents left the scene with all three boxes." [ http://www.arcticbeacon.com/3-Dec-2004.html ] Without seeing a direct quote it's hard to say but it sounds like Bellone is claiming to have at least been 'along for the ride' at least part of the search. And he is the only person saying publicly that he saw the "black boxes" and he is the publisher and a co-author of the book in which DeMasi mentions having found them.

"The worker who helped federal agents find the black boxes was fireman Nicholas DeMasi, who describes the recovery (three boxes out of a total of four) in one paragraph of his article in the book about Ground Zero."

I don't have the book but I have only ever seen two paragraphs of it (page 108) quoted regarding the boxes:

"At one point I was assigned to take federal agents around the site to search for the black boxes from the planes. We were getting ready to go out and my ATV was parked at the top of the stairs at the Brooks Brothers entrance.

"We loaded up about a million dollars worth of equipment and strapped it into the ATV. When we go in to take off, one of the agents accidentally pushed me forward. The ATV was already in reverse. We went down the stairs in reverse. Fortunately everything was okay. There was a total of four black boxes. We found three." [ibid]

I think a few things are odd about this account:

- In the first paragraph and beginning of the second it sounds like he and the agents had not found the boxes yet: he was "assigned" to help federal agents "to search for" them, when they "were getting ready to go" one of the agents accidentally pushed Demasi and his ATV with its "million dollars worth of equipment" down the stairs. But by the time it got to the bottom they had found three of the four boxes. Perhaps they went out and found the boxes after that but it's strange he wrote about the stairs incident but says nothing about how and where they actually located the boxes and how the expensive sophisticated equipment was used. It's odd that he mentions such an important find in such an off hand way.

- The NYFD denies this happened presumably if he had been "assigned" to help the FBI (?) agents the assignment would have come from his commanders in the department. Is the department leadership helping cover up the murder of hundreds of their men and thousands of citizens?

- We are not told the names of the agents nor which agency they worked for presumably if you are driving federal agents around Ground Zero in your ATV (he claims to have donated several to the NYFD) your would know their names or at least who they worked for.

-No one else saw this or if they saw it haven't said anything. Indeed two members of a 9/11 truth group said "If DeMasi's story is true, then there has to be others at Ground Zero who may have witnessed the recovery of the black boxes...There may even be pictures or video of the recovery since FEMA and OSHA monitored the entire site." [ibid]

Indeed Balloney told a CT researcher, "I know two or three others saw what went down, but they are not talking". He claims that they were intimidated by the agents "They confronted me and told me to not to say anything…I said give me a good reason? When they couldn't, I told them I wouldn't shut up about it" and "They got to those guys after they talked to me." [ http://www.arcticbeacon.citymaker.com/articles/article/1518131/17860.htm ]

Again the account is puzzling why didn't Bellone mention this incident in the book? Did they only tell Bellone and the others but not DeMasi to shut up? If DeMasi was threatened and mentioned the find despite the threats why didn't he say anything about the intimidation in the book? And why would he make such an important revelation in such an off hand way in an obscure book 'self published' by Bellone's "charity" group?

Also it's hard to believe the other firemen could be so easily intimidated, these are guys whose job it is to risk their lives to save those of strangers on a regular basis. Would they participate in a cover up involving an incident that killed hundreds of their colleagues and thousands of their fellow citizens? Highly unlikely, NYC firemen show no signs of being afraid to confront authority as shown by their 'riot' when Giuliani announced the suspension of efforts to find additional human remains at Ground Zero. DeMasi 'talked' and hasn't suffered any ill consequences and Bellone won't shut up and the only problems he's had were of his own making so what would the other firemen be afraid of, if Bellones story is true they'd be safer talking than keeping quite.

"If they wanted to secretly find the black boxes why would they involved a fireman and a volunteer?"

"Is it possible that at the time they looked for and found the black boxes in September 2001, the federal agents knew nothing of any government intent to keep it a secret?"

Not according to Mr. Ballone in addition to the above he said, 'the day the 'black boxes' were secretly carted away agents acted like "something big was going down." ' [ibid] once again if true it's strange that DeMasi didn't mention this, the finding of the boxes comes across as no big deal something of less interest than the ATV getting push down the stairs in front of an expensive men's clothing store.

"...if DeMasi is still alive..."

He is listed with Verizon, why don't you give him a call?

Bellone is a less than reputable source. His claim to have been made an honorary fireman has been disputed by the NYFD which arrested him for being in possession of stolen FD property. The Fire Marshal who arrested him called him "a fraud". http://www.gmtoday.com/news/local_stories/2005/October_05/10182005_10.asp

There are other indications that he is less than honest. He seems to have told people he was a NYFD firefighter or even the "safety director" at Ground Zero.

In a September 11, 2002 article from an MIT newsletter he is identified as a firefighter four times and once as "World Trade Center Task Force Fire Safety Director". http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2002/911-sunday-0911.html. In a Dec. 13, 2002 Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article Bellone is described as "a civilian fire safety director" [ http://www2.jsonline.com/news/wauk/dec02/102901.asp ], In an article from the September 2002 issue of 'Big Apple Parent' Bellone is once again as a fire fighter and "Fire Safety Director". [ http://web.archive.org/web/20040207191032/http://www.parentsknow.com/articles/article.php?id=1031066144 ]. He is given similar titles in these articles: "fire safety director for the Fire Department" (church newsletter NYC April 23, 2003) [ http://www.ssmbos.com/Pages/sept11.html ]; "Mike Bellone...of the New York Fire Department … Fire Safety Director Mike Bellone of FDNY" (Naples, FL city government newsletter March 27, 2003) [ http://manager.naplesgov.com/updates/2003/20030331_-_March_31_2003.pdf ], "Michael Bellone, FDNY safety director" (NY Post, February 12, 2002) [ http://www.soundanalarm.net/babylon/revisited.html ]; "Five representatives of New York City firefighters… Mike Bellone was the safety director at Ground Zero. Several television programs interviewed him for programs to be aired today …Dennis Fisin worked at St. Paul's Chapel during the 10-month recovery." (Nevada Appeal, September 11, 2003 ) [ http://www.nevadaappeal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/.../NEWS/309110101 ]. They said he was interviewed by local TV stations, I wonder if he told them he was the "Fire Safety Director" at Ground Zero too.

Seven separate publications including major newspapers over a one year period from New York, Boston, Wisconsin, Florida and Nevada gave him the same title obviously he was telling reporters, firefighters and others he was some sort of "safety director" at 'Ground Zero' despite the fact that he was a civilian volunteer and retired grocer who MIGHT have been named an "honorary firefighter". AFTER 9-11, this was disputed by the NYFD and he has two versions at times claiming he was so declared by an "engine company" at other times it was "by FDNY Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta" [ NY Post http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/a...69§ionId=46 ] . It turns out that Bellone might not be the only member of his group to "exaggerate" according to the Las Vegas Review-Journal and the NY Post Fisin isn't firefighters either [ http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/200...s/22141245.html - NY Post see link below]. Numerous other publications describe him as a "firefighter", according to the Review-Journal "He mentioned a number of memorial quilts made by Nevada women were sent to his fire station."

The problems don't stop there according to the NY Post Bellone's group the "TRAC Team" tries to represent itself as being associated with the NYFD and:

- Owes New Jersey graphics company ADP $200,000 for printing its self-published book about Ground Zero.

- Stiffed a company that provided the American flags TRAC hands out to local dignitaries.

- Left a cross-country trail of more than $20,000 in unpaid bills, including hotel rooms, flights, FDNY shirts, business cards and even prescription drugs.

The Post spoke to four former TRAC business associates who said they felt "used" by the group after it "misrepresented" itself and left unpaid bills.

"I put my reputation on the line for this group, and believed in it," said one. "But the truth is, they play on people's emotions and good will, manipulating them where they're most vulnerable for nothing but their own gain."

The sentiment of the "former TRAC business associate" was echoed by the Fire Marshal who arrested him, "The bottom line is that I have a problem with individuals who prey on the emotions of the general public based on a tragedy." http://www.gmtoday.com/news/local_stories/...10182005_10.asp

The guy sounds like a total BS artist to me. Perhaps the financial irregularities of "the TRAC team" were well meaning blunders and he is not into it for the money but at the least he seems to be a glory and attention hound. I grew up in NYC and have met lots of people like this, Walter Mittys who try to get you to believe their fantasies. He obviously is not reliable.

As to Demasi's reliability it's hard to say but his association with Bellone and the other faux firemen isn't a good sign. His version leaves out many of the details of Bellone's account, he didn't say the FBI told him to keep quite or describe the black boxes. Nor did he say how and where the boxes were found nor how they were identified.

Another aspect of Bellone's story doesn't add up. He says that he was told to by unnamed FBI agents to shut up about the black boxes. This would indicate that they were looking for the boxes with the intent to cover them up. Why then would they involve firemen and voluntary firemen?

Firemen are trained of course to fight fires, rescue people trapped in fires and other dangerous situations and some have EMS training. Only fire marshals would have evidence recovery training. According to Wikipedia there only about 140 marshals in the NYFD* and DeMasi wasn't a fire marshal. The FBI on the other hand has dozens of specialized teams trained in evidence recovery. These units are known as Evidence Response Teams.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Marshal

According to the FBI:

"An Evidence Response Team (ERT) is a group of highly-trained and well-equipped FBI personnel who specialize in organizing and conducting major evidence recovery operations. They manage the identification, collection, and preservation of evidence at crime scenes. Their services are in great demand by local, state, and foreign law enforcement agencies. ERTs are prepared to respond to major case situations in an efficient fashion to ensure that critical evidence is identified and gathered for forensic analysis.

Each of the FBI's fifty-six Field Offices has an ERT, consisting of eight to fifty members. These teams undergo continuous training to develop and maintain their organizational and forensic skills.

ERTs have been involved in many domestic operations, such as the investigation into the explosion of TWA Flight 800, and in international operations, such as the investigation of U.S. Embassy bombings in East Africa. A team composed of personnel from the Cleveland and Washington Field Offices also was deployed to accommodate a UN request for investigative support.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/ert/ertmain.htm

Not only are they trained in evidence recovery but they frequently investigate crash sites even when criminal activity is NOT suspected. They responded to sites of the Payne Stewart, Paul Wellstone and U. of Oklahoma basketball team crashes among others it is routine for them to assist the NTSB investigate crash sites (1) Some of these agents even go through join training with NTSB investigators (2).

1) - http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0101/28/sun.03.html,

- http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:v3HyjKhQuokJ:minneapolis.fbi.gov/taskforc.htm

- http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/Content?oid=oid%3A27323

- http://columbiatribune.com/2004/Nov/20041101News022.asp

2) http://www.ntsb.gov/Academy/CourseInfo/FBI_ERT_Archive.htm

There was a large number of ERT agents in NYC after 9/11

"55 FBI Evidence Response Teams worked the site [the Fresh Kills Landfill] -- over 1,000 agents -- plus FBI medics, safety officers, and other specialists. New York Evidence Response Team members worked over 8,000 hours at the site, at the morgue, and at Ground Zero." http://www.fbi.gov/page2/nov03/nyhs112703.htm

So if they could mobilize over a 1000 agents trained in evidence recovery to go through a garbage dump and many of those agents had training and experience to investigate crash sites (which presumably includes finding black boxes) and they wanted to secretly find the black boxes why would involve firemen (at least one of them a volunteer) in the search?

The same logic casts doubt on DeMasi's account. Perhaps he found three objects that he and maybe even the FBI agent mistook for black boxes. Perhaps he's making it up too. Perhaps he never made those claims – It's odd that he doesn't return reporters and 9/11 investigators calls and the only sources quoting him as saying he found the boxes are Bellone and a book published by the group Bellone found of which Bellone is listed as a co-author.

Len

Edited June 6, 2006 by Len Colby

[Jack White]

NO BLACK BOXES FROM ANY 911 EVENT ARE AVAILABLE.

If they were available and supported the govt's conspiracy theory,

the govt certainly would have supplied the evidence therein to

the "911 investigators". They would not be classified TOP SECRET.

Two possibilities:

1. No black boxes were found.

2. If black boxes were found, they do not support the official story.

The same applies to surveillance videos. If the govt story is true,

all surveillance videos showing what impacted the Pentagon would

have been released immediately. Since no such videos show a

757 hitting the Pentagon, we can only deduce that no 757 hit

the building.

Elementary, Watson.

Jack

[Craig Lamson]

NO BLACK BOXES FROM ANY 911 EVENT ARE AVAILABLE.

If they were available and supported the govt's conspiracy theory,

the govt certainly would have supplied the evidence therein to

the "911 investigators". They would not be classified TOP SECRET.

Two possibilities:

1. No black boxes were found.

2. If black boxes were found, they do not support the official story.

The same applies to surveillance videos. If the govt story is true,

all surveillance videos showing what impacted the Pentagon would

have been released immediately. Since no such videos show a

757 hitting the Pentagon, we can only deduce that no 757 hit

the building.

Elementary, Watson.

Jack

Wow your "grasp" of logic is almost equaled by your "grasp" of basic photographic principals....

[Adam Wilkinson]

Two possibilities:

1. No black boxes were found.

2. If black boxes were found, they do not support the official story.

The same applies to surveillance videos. If the govt story is true,

all surveillance videos showing what impacted the Pentagon would

have been released immediately. Since no such videos show a

757 hitting the Pentagon, we can only deduce that no 757 hit

the building.

Elementary, Watson.

Jack

Possibility 3: They have not been released to the public due to the fact that legal cases are still being attended to?

[Len Colby]

NO BLACK BOXES FROM ANY 911 EVENT ARE AVAILABLE.

If they were available and supported the govt's conspiracy theory,

the govt certainly would have supplied the evidence therein to

the "911 investigators". They would not be classified TOP SECRET.

Two possibilities:

1. No black boxes were found.

2. If black boxes were found, they do not support the official story.

The same applies to surveillance videos. If the govt story is true,

all surveillance videos showing what impacted the Pentagon would

have been released immediately. Since no such videos show a

757 hitting the Pentagon, we can only deduce that no 757 hit

the building.

Elementary, Watson.

Jack

The only thing that seems elementary is that some people need to improve their reading skills! I already addressed that obvious point.

name='Len Colby' date='Jun 4 2006, 04:41 PM' post='64522']

Also 9-11 CTists believe the CVR tape from flight 93 and the FDR data from flight 77 were faked. If they have the technology to fake CVR tapes and FDR data why wouldn't they claim to have useable tapes from all 8 recorders with info that reinforced the "OCT"?

Faking CVR tapes would be relatively simple matter since they record on electromagnetic tape and CVR's can be bought on the Internet. This would have been especially easy for flight 11 because it was under the domination of the hijackers for 33 minutes (8:13 – 8:46) [1] and CVR tapes only record the last 30 – 32 minutes of a flight and no one knows what the hijackers' voices sounded like. Flight 175 was hijacked at about 8:42 [2] and crashed 21 minutes later so they only would have had 9 minutes of cabin crew dialogue to fake some of which could have been extracted from the ATC tape. Can FDR data be faked? I'm not sure but I don't think it would be too difficult and as stated above 9/11 CTists believe the FDR data for flight 77 was faked.

Officially 4 black boxes, both of the ones from flights 77 and 93, were recovered but two, the CVR from flight 77 and the FDR from flight 93, were too badly damaged to retrieve any information. If we are too believe proven xxxx Mike Bellone he and 3 – 4 firefighters saw the recovered boxes, it would have made a lot more sense to say that any boxes they could not fake were also too badly damaged. The boxes aren't designed to withstand colliding into steel framed buildings at over 500 MPH and then have tons of debris collapse on them and then spend several days (or weeks) in a burning debris pile which may have gotten to 1500 F (815 C) in hotspots

1] http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timelin...ay_of_9/11=aa11

2] http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timelin...y_of_9/11=ua175

CVR = cockpit voice recorder

FDR = flight data recorder

ATC = air traffic control

Len

Edited June 6, 2006 by Len Colby

[Ron Ecker]

I don't know if anyone here can answer this question, but if there were no black boxes aboard an aircraft, would the pilots know it (through their checkoff list or whatever)?

If the WTC planes were rigged for remote control (and I'm not saying they were, since I wasn't in on the planning), I question whether the conspirators would want to leave black boxes behind. Much simpler to say they were never found.

When Cabinet official Ron Brown was killed in a plane crash during the previous regime, he was aboard an airplane that conveniently had no black boxes.

[Mitchell Montgomery]

Tried to send a PM. Is your mailbox full?

[Len Colby]

I don't know if anyone here can answer this question, but if there were no black boxes aboard an aircraft, would the pilots know it (through their checkoff list or whatever)?

If the WTC planes were rigged for remote control (and I'm not saying they were, since I wasn't in on the planning), I question whether the conspirators would want to leave black boxes behind. Much simpler to say they were never found.

Ron I have no idea about your black box question I wonder if they would be missed by the maintainence people. I will ask about it on some aviation forums I belong to and let you know.

Your theory of course would complicate the conspiracy theory by adding 4 groups off additional conspirators who would have to be American and United employees. Even that wouldn't guarantee that the black boxless planes would get hijacked as it's not uncommon for planes to be switched in the last minute. If that happened they would have to get someone to reinstall the same black boxes (they have serial numbers) before anyone noticed.

That wouldn't be necessary because in case of criminal activity the FBI not the NTSB is the lead agency in aviation disasters. All they would have to do is say the were too badly damaged like they did with the FDR from flight 93 and the CVR from flight 77 or fake them like you guys think they did with the CVR from 93 and FDR from 77

When Cabinet official Ron Brown was killed in a plane crash during the previous regime, he was aboard an airplane that conveniently had no black boxes.

The ‘official’ explaination is that many military planes weren’t equipped with them I have no idea if that’s true or not. There is a retired USAF crash investigator is part of the “9-11 ‘truth’ ” movement you can ask him about it. Has anyone with aviation experience questioned the creash? What would the motive have been?

[Evan Burton]

I don't know if anyone here can answer this question, but if there were no black boxes aboard an aircraft, would the pilots know it (through their checkoff list or whatever)?

Yes. They do a 'self-check' as part of the pre-take off checks, and if the CVR / FDR malfunctions they get a caution light. This also happens when the CVR / FDR 'rewinds'; they generally only record 30 mins of data. When they 'rewind' a warning is displayed.

[Steve Rymer]

Anybody fancy having a go at explaining this?

http://www.rense.com/general70/pphe.htm]

There are no conspiracies, only coincidences...