Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Evan Burton]

Craig, the official report does say they hustled him out of the office pretty quick. My guess would be in less than one minute.

Ron, we have disagreements between two timelines. One is taken from various logs and recording devices, the other is based on... what?

Has anyone asked Mr Mineta how he determined those times? Ditto for the photographer. Now, if Mr Mineta states that he looked at his watch for the 0920 times, then yes, I would say there is something worth digging into.

Based on the balance of probabilities, however, I consider it more likely that he made an estimate of the time and got it wrong.

Something that could clear this up is to find out what time the White House called him and asked him to come over (I presume this call would have been logged). Ditto for finding out what time the calls to Monty Belger & Jane Garvey were made. If they back up Mineta's timings, THEN you have some real evidence.

Similarly, he said he "discussed the situation with the North American Air defense commander"; that call would have also been logged somewhere.

We do have one interesting piece of timing which would support his claims - the grounding aircraft time. Mr Mineta said he gave that order at 0945, which would appear to be backed up. That meant he was there at 0945, and SLOTUS isn't recorded as arriving until 0952. He said that she was there. So the question should be asked: WHEN did you discover she was there? On arrival? On hearing the "miles... orders still stand.." call? After he had given the order to ground all aircraft?

With in depth questioning, it might turn out that he found things out later but using terms like "she was there" means he was misinterpreted. On the other hand, it might provide further evidence that his timeline is correct.

Interested parties should seek to ask these questions to confirm timings.

[Craig Lamson]

Craig, the official report does say they hustled him out of the office pretty quick. My guess would be in less than one minute.

WHEN? "shortly after 9am"? 9:30? One thing we do know is than none of the sources Ron quotes tells us WHEN?

[Len Colby]

What did Mineta hear and when did he here it? Perhaps a January 2002 Washington Post article can help shed light on that question.

9:32 a.m. *

[…]

Secret Service agents burst into Cheney's West Wing office. "Sir," one said, "we have to leave immediately." Radar showed an airplane barreling toward the White House.

Before Cheney could respond, the agents grabbed the vice president under his arms-nearly lifting him off the ground-and propelled him down the steps into the White House basement and through a long tunnel that led to the underground bunker.

[…]

In the tunnel below the White House, Cheney stopped to watch a television showing the smoke billowing out of the World Trade Center towers, heard the report about the plane hitting the Pentagon and called Bush again. Other Secret Service agents hustled Rice and several other senior White House officials included in an emergency contingency plan into the bunker with the vice president.

Transportation Secretary Norman Y. Mineta, summoned by the White House to the bunker, was on an open line to the Federal Aviation Administration operations center, monitoring Flight 77 as it hurtled toward Washington, with radar tracks coming every seven seconds. Reports came that the plane was 50 miles out, 30 miles out, 10 miles out-until word reached the bunker that there had been an explosion at the Pentagon.

Mineta shouted into the phone to Monte Belger at the FAA: "Monte, bring all the planes down." It was an unprecedented order-there were 4,546 airplanes in the air at the time. Belger, the FAA's acting deputy administrator, amended Mineta's directive to take into account the authority vested in airline pilots. "We're bringing them down per pilot discretion," Belger told the secretary.

"[Expletive] pilot discretion," Mineta yelled back. "Get those goddamn planes down."

Sitting at the other end of the table, Cheney snapped his head up, looked squarely at Mineta and nodded in agreement.

[…] [next page] […]

The plane [Air Force One] accelerated down the runway and then almost stood on its tail as it climbed rapidly out of the airport. It was 9:55 a.m.

[…]

Once airborne, Bush spoke again to Cheney, who said the combat air patrol needed rules of engagement if pilots encountered an aircraft that might be under the control of hijackers. Cheney recommended that Bush authorize the military to shoot down any such civilian airliners-as momentous a decision as the president was asked to make in those first hours. "I said, 'You bet,'" Bush recalled. "We had a little discussion, but not much."

[…] [Note: There is a large gap (i.e. blank white space) in the middle of this page]

In the White House bunker, a military aide approached the vice president.

"There is a plane 80 miles out," he said. "There is a fighter in the area. Should we engage?"

"Yes," Cheney replied without hesitation.

Around the vice president, Rice, deputy White House chief of staff Joshua Bolten and I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Cheney's chief of staff, tensed as the military aide repeated the question, this time with even more urgency. The plane was now 60 miles out. "Should we engage?" Cheney was asked.

"Yes," he replied again.

As the plane came closer, the aide repeated the question. Does the order still stand?

"Of course it does," Cheney snapped.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...002Jan26_3.html [And following page as indicated]

* The 9/11 Commission said this happened a minute later

Did Mineta simply conflate the two different scenarios? There is significant evidence that he did.

1) Mineta’s recollection of events that day seems imperfect. Here recounted events that morning in a June 2006 interview with The Academy of Achievement:

Mineta: So I said, [to deputy FAA administrator Monte Belger after the Pentagon had been hit]"Bring all the planes down."

[AoA] You mean ground all the planes?

Norman Mineta: Ground all the planes. We already had a ground hold on planes going into New York. Any plane that was going to leave from Atlanta heading to New York, those planes were left on the ground in Atlanta. That happened maybe about 8:30 or 8:40 in the morning. Now this is about 9:27.

There are a few problems with his account:

I) He said the part of the conversation with Belger about grounding the planes took place AFTER the Pentagon has hit but then says it took place at “about 9:27”. The Pentagon was struck at 9:38.

II) He says the “ground hold on planes going into New York” was put into effect “maybe about 8:30 or 8:40” which would have been before either plane struck the WTC or 175 was known to have been hijacked. This order went into effect sometime between 9:03 and 9:25.

III) He told the 9/11 Commission this happened at 9:45

http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hear..._2003-05-23.htm

IV) By most accounts the order had been made by people at the FAA at 9:25*. What I presume happened is that they made this decision without consulting him (perhaps because he was unavailable) and then asked for authorization after the fact. That by nearly five years after the fact he was unaware of this indicates he was a bit “out of the loop”.

* http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,...,174912,00.html among others

V) During the interview he indicated he was on the phone with Belger when the “young man came in and said to the Vice President, "There's a plane 50 miles out coming towards D.C."” and from that point onwards till after the FAA official told the Pentagon had been struck he was appraised of the plane’s distance by Belger. He made no mention of the “young man” or VP, thus this version is substantially different from his Commission testimony.

2) We can’t ignore his age he was nearly 70 on 9/11 and close to 72 when he testified before the commission. On the Liberty thread I posted a link to a study showing that 75% of a group of elderly people with an average age of 75 had memory problems. Stress can also increase memory failure he told the AoA that there was “No question” 9/11 was his “toughest day as a public official” (see previous link) Note that except for a year stint (1995 - 2001) he had been “a public official” 1967 – 2006. I’m not saying he was senile he did stay on the job till 2006, just that he could have misremembered some details. My Dad ran a scientific consulting business till he was 84 but showed signs of a memory loss many years before retiring I don’t think any of us regardless of age have perfect memories.

3) He told the Commission that he though the conversation he overhead took place after the President left Florida and spoke to Cheney. We know that AF1 took off at 9:55 according to the logs Bush and the VP spoke shortly thereafter. Thus the timing corresponds more closely with the Washington Post - 9/11 Commission Report timeline i.e. that Cheney said the order still stood after 10 AM.

4) He told the AoA that:

I went into the White House and someone said, "You have to be briefed by Dick Clark in the Situation Room." So I went in there, he talked to me for four or five minutes, and he said, "You have got to go to the PEOC."

He also mentioned speaking to Clarke in his Commission testimony. In his book Clarke made no mention of speaking to Mineta but based on what he said it sounds like this must have taken place after Bush addressed the nation from the school in Florida which happened at 9:29 and after the Secret Sercive discovered or was told radar showed Flt. 77 heading towards D.C. at 9:32/9:33. Clarke wrote (the passages are as quoted in an Australian newspaper hence the British spelling):

As I entered the video centre, Lisa Gordon-Hagerty was taking the roll and I could see people rushing into studios around the city: Rumsfeld at Defence and George Tenet at the CIA. But at many of the sites the principal [top official]was travelling.

"You're going to need some decisions quickly," Rice said off-camera. "I'm going to the PEOC to be with the Vice-President. Tell us what you need."

[…]

"OK," I began. "Let's start with the facts. FAA, FAA, go."

Jane Garvey, the administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration, was in the chair. "The two aircraft that went in were American flight 11, a 767, and United 175, also a 767. Hijacked. The air traffic manager," Jane went on, "says there are 4400 birds up now. We can cancel all take-offs quickly, but grounding them all that are already up ... nobody's ever done this before."

"Jane ... are you prepared to order a national ground stop and no-fly zone?"

"Yes, but it will take a while."

The television screen in the upper left was running CNN on mute. Noticing the President coming on, Lisa turned on the volume and the crisis conference halted to listen: "... into the World Trade Centre in an apparent terrorist attack on our country."

During the pause, I noticed that Brian Stafford, director of the Secret Service, was now in the room. He pulled me aside. "We gotta get him out of there to some place safe ... and secret. I've stashed FLOTUS."

FLOTUS was White House speak for Laura Bush, first lady of the US, now in a heavily guarded, unmarked building in Washington.

I resumed the video conference. Garvey read from a list: "All aircraft have been ordered to land at the nearest field. Here's what we have as potential hijacks: Delta 1989 over West Virginia, United 93 over Pennsylvania ..."

Stafford slipped me a note. "Radar shows aircraft headed this way." Secret Service had a system that allowed them to see what the FAA's radar was seeing. "I'm going to empty out the complex." He was ordering the evacuation of the White House.

http://www.911injured.org/Media/911commiss...s/aus032604.htm

As previously noted the “ground halt” was ordered at 9:25, the president started speaking at 9:29/9:30 and the approach of Flt. 77 discovered at 9:32/9:33 It seems bizarre that:

a) Garvey and Clarke would discuss the ground halt with out consulting Mineta, who was Garvey’s boss if he were there or that Clarke would fail to mention his presence.

Mineta would not have mentioned this and been unaware of the order if he were their at the time. Remember that Mineta said the White house was being evacuated before his car pulled into the White House.

Thus it’s had to believe that Mineta got to the PEOC at the time he said especially if he really did all the things he claimed to between 9:03 and 9:20 (gathering papers and various live and telephone conversations at the DoT, 6 minute drive (perhaps longer at the tail end of rush hour, 4 – 5 minute conversation with Clarke etc). Mineta probably got to the WH a little after 9:30 had a shorter conversation then he remembered with Clarke and got to the PEOC just after Cheney but a few minutes before the Pentagon crash at 9:38. This might explain why the ground stop was ordered without consulting him he might have been en route from the DoT and WH and for whatever reason unreachable. To make a long story short he got to the PEOC in time to have overheard Cheney before the Pentagon crash but a) the exactness of his recollections is cast further in doubt he is not very valuable as a witness contradicting Cheney’s arrival time.

Some people quote Clarke’s account as indicating the VP went to the PEOC before 9:32/9:33. That isn’t the case. He wrote (same link as above):

I RAN through the White House west wing to the Vice-President's office, oblivious to the stares and concern that brought.

Gordon-Hagerty had called to say an aircraft had struck the World Trade Centre [in New York]. "Right. Activate the CSG on secure video. I'll be there in less than five," I told her as I ran to my car. The CSG was the Counter-Terrorism Security Group, the leaders of each of the federal Government's counterterrorism and security organisations. I had chaired it since 1992. I looked at the clock on the dashboard. It was 9.03am, September 11, 2001.

As I drove up to the first White House gate, Lisa called again: "The other tower was just hit."

"Well, now we know who we're dealing with," I said. "I want the highest level person in Washington from each agency on-screen now, especially FAA [the Federal Aviation Administration]."

Bursting in on the Vice-President and Condi alone in Cheney's office, I caught my breath. Cheney was famously implacable, but I thought I saw a reflection of horror on his face. "What do you think?" he asked.

"It's an al-Qa'ida attack and they like simultaneous attacks. This may not be over."

"OK, Dick," Condi said, "you're the crisis manager, what do you recommend?" She and I had discussed what we would do if and when another terrorist attack hit. In June, I had given her a checklist of things to do after an attack, in part to underline my belief that something big was coming and that we needed to go on the offensive.

"We're putting together a secure teleconference to manage the crisis," I replied. "I'd like to get the highest ranking official from each department."

"Do it," the Vice-President ordered.

"Secret Service wants us to go to the bomb shelter," Condi added. I nodded. "I would and ... I would evacuate the White House."

Cheney began to gather up his papers. In his outer office the normal Secret Service presence was two agents. As I left, I counted eight, ready to move to the PEOC, the presidential emergency operations centre, a bunker in the east wing.

Based on his account:

a) he probably left the VP’s office between 9:08 and 9:20,

the photographer wasn’t there.

c) Cheney was gathering his papers

d) the Secret Service was “ready to move” the VP to the PEOC but had not started to do so at the time Clarke left.

So presumably the photographer arrived after. As I stated earlier it is not clear if Bohrer of the author of the article was the one who said Cheney was evacuated “just after 9:00” it could have been a poorly written and unintentionally misleading sentence. This may sound far fetched but a member of this forum who graduated with honors from Princeton earned a PhD, spent years teaching philosophy and wrote and edited numerous books and articles did some thing similar. Dr. James Fetzer wrote concerning the Wellstone crash: “As Christopher Bollyn discovered, these special agents were from the Twin Cities, not from Duluth, even though they had driven to Eveleth from Duluth using cars they had rented there”.

http://www.assassinationscience.com/fbicoverup.pdf

Just as ABC make it sound like Bohrer said when the VP was evacuated, Fetzer made it sound like Bollyn said the FBI flew to Duluth and rented cars there. However in discussion on a Yahoo forum he said that info didn’t come the now fugitive author but a source he couldn’t disclose http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FETZERclaimsDEBUNK/message/891

Edited July 4, 2007 by Len Colby

[Ron Ecker]

Thus it’s had to believe that Mineta got to the PEOC at the time he said especially if he really did all the things he claimed to between 9:03 and 9:20 (gathering papers and various live and telephone conversations at the DoT, 6 minute drive (perhaps longer at the tail end of rush hour, 4 – 5 minute conversation with Clarke etc). Mineta probably got to the WH a little after 9:30 had a shorter conversation then he remembered with Clarke and got to the PEOC just after Cheney but a few minutes before the Pentagon crash at 9:38. This might explain why the ground stop was ordered without consulting him he might have been en route from the DoT and WH and for whatever reason unreachable. To make a long story short he got to the PEOC in time to have overheard Cheney before the Pentagon crash but a) the exactness of his recollections is cast further in doubt he is not very valuable as a witness contradicting Cheney’s arrival time.

Len,

Well done. If that is what happened, why do you think Cheney's arrival time at the PEOC was pushed back in the official story, I believe close to 10 o'clock (that's my memory, I don't have anything in front of me right now). I have always suspected that the time was pushed back in order to make the plane they were tracking be Flight 93 instead of Flight 77. They did not want Cheney sitting there tracking 77 into the Pentagon. But that's just a guess. (And where was Cheney in the meantime? Apparently by all accounts except the official one he was not still sitting in his office till around 9:30.)

Ron

Edited July 4, 2007 by Ron Ecker

[Jack White]

Thus it’s had to believe that Mineta got to the PEOC at the time he said especially if he really did all the things he claimed to between 9:03 and 9:20 (gathering papers and various live and telephone conversations at the DoT, 6 minute drive (perhaps longer at the tail end of rush hour, 4 – 5 minute conversation with Clarke etc). Mineta probably got to the WH a little after 9:30 had a shorter conversation then he remembered with Clarke and got to the PEOC just after Cheney but a few minutes before the Pentagon crash at 9:38. This might explain why the ground stop was ordered without consulting him he might have been en route from the DoT and WH and for whatever reason unreachable. To make a long story short he got to the PEOC in time to have overheard Cheney before the Pentagon crash but a) the exactness of his recollections is cast further in doubt he is not very valuable as a witness contradicting Cheney’s arrival time.

Len,

Well done. If that is what happened, why do you think Cheney's arrival time at the PEOC was pushed back in the official story, I believe close to 10 o'clock (that's my memory, I don't have anything in front of me right now). I have always suspected that the time was pushed back in order to make the plane they were tracking be Flight 93 instead of Flight 77. They did not want Cheney sitting there tracking 77 into the Pentagon. But that's just a guess. (And where was Cheney in the meantime? Apparently by all accounts except the official one he was not still sitting in his office till around 9:30.)

Ron

As I recall Dr. Fetzer has studied this intensively and says Cheney

was outside the room in a hallway on a BACK-CHANNEL (unofficial

non-monitored) telephone making unofficial phone calls talking to

unidentified parties.

Jack

[Ron Ecker]

As I recall Dr. Fetzer has studied this intensively and says Cheney

was outside the room in a hallway on a BACK-CHANNEL (unofficial

non-monitored) telephone making unofficial phone calls talking to

unidentified parties.

That's exactly the kind of thing I would suspect if Cheney "disappeared" for a time. Do you recall if Fetzer cited any sources on this? It would be nice if he chimed in on this.

[Jack White]

As I recall Dr. Fetzer has studied this intensively and says Cheney

was outside the room in a hallway on a BACK-CHANNEL (unofficial

non-monitored) telephone making unofficial phone calls talking to

unidentified parties.

That's exactly the kind of thing I would suspect if Cheney "disappeared" for a time. Do you recall if Fetzer cited any sources on this? It would be nice if he chimed in on this.

It may be in his book. I will check.

Jack

[Craig Lamson]

Thus it’s had to believe that Mineta got to the PEOC at the time he said especially if he really did all the things he claimed to between 9:03 and 9:20 (gathering papers and various live and telephone conversations at the DoT, 6 minute drive (perhaps longer at the tail end of rush hour, 4 – 5 minute conversation with Clarke etc). Mineta probably got to the WH a little after 9:30 had a shorter conversation then he remembered with Clarke and got to the PEOC just after Cheney but a few minutes before the Pentagon crash at 9:38. This might explain why the ground stop was ordered without consulting him he might have been en route from the DoT and WH and for whatever reason unreachable. To make a long story short he got to the PEOC in time to have overheard Cheney before the Pentagon crash but a) the exactness of his recollections is cast further in doubt he is not very valuable as a witness contradicting Cheney’s arrival time.

Len,

Well done. If that is what happened, why do you think Cheney's arrival time at the PEOC was pushed back in the official story, I believe close to 10 o'clock (that's my memory, I don't have anything in front of me right now). I have always suspected that the time was pushed back in order to make the plane they were tracking be Flight 93 instead of Flight 77. They did not want Cheney sitting there tracking 77 into the Pentagon. But that's just a guess. (And where was Cheney in the meantime? Apparently by all accounts except the official one he was not still sitting in his office till around 9:30.)

Ron

Of course, THERE ARE NO ACCOUNTS of the VP leaving his office before 9:30.

[Jack White]

As I recall Dr. Fetzer has studied this intensively and says Cheney

was outside the room in a hallway on a BACK-CHANNEL (unofficial

non-monitored) telephone making unofficial phone calls talking to

unidentified parties.

That's exactly the kind of thing I would suspect if Cheney "disappeared" for a time. Do you recall if Fetzer cited any sources on this? It would be nice if he chimed in on this.

It may be in his book. I will check.

Jack

The Cheney info is in PETER DALE SCOTT'S chapter in Fetzer's

THE 911 CONSPIRACY on pages 197-200. That is where I had

read the info I posted.

Jack

[Ron Ecker]

Jack,

Thanks. I don't have that book. I'll have to get ahold of it.

Ron

[Ron Ecker]

I was able to read the relevant pages in Scott's chapter through the Search Inside the Book function at Amazon.com. Scott offers a good speculative explanation for the conflict in the times that Cheney left his office and showed up at the PEOC. Scott believes that Cheney left his office soon after 9 as various accounts indicate, which would put him in the PEOC around 9:20 when Mineta says he saw him there. But Scott thinks that Cheney then left the PEOC to use the secure phone in the tunnel (according to Scott to make calls to Rumsfeld and Bush about Continuity of Government), then returned to the PEOC at 9:58, when the official story says he "arrived."

It is known that Cheney used the secure phone in the tunnel. But the official story says he used it on his way to the PEOC, which leaves time unaccounted for. If he went to the PEOC by 9:20, then subsequently returned to the tunnel to use the secure phone, then re-entered the PEOC around 10, the conflicting time accounts are reconciled.

[Len Colby]

Thus it’s had to believe that Mineta got to the PEOC at the time he said especially if he really did all the things he claimed to between 9:03 and 9:20 (gathering papers and various live and telephone conversations at the DoT, 6 minute drive (perhaps longer at the tail end of rush hour, 4 – 5 minute conversation with Clarke etc). Mineta probably got to the WH a little after 9:30 had a shorter conversation then he remembered with Clarke and got to the PEOC just after Cheney but a few minutes before the Pentagon crash at 9:38. This might explain why the ground stop was ordered without consulting him he might have been en route from the DoT and WH and for whatever reason unreachable. To make a long story short he got to the PEOC in time to have overheard Cheney before the Pentagon crash but a) the exactness of his recollections is cast further in doubt he is not very valuable as a witness contradicting Cheney’s arrival time.

Len,

Well done. If that is what happened, why do you think Cheney's arrival time at the PEOC was pushed back in the official story, I believe close to 10 o'clock (that's my memory, I don't have anything in front of me right now). I have always suspected that the time was pushed back in order to make the plane they were tracking be Flight 93 instead of Flight 77. They did not want Cheney sitting there tracking 77 into the Pentagon. But that's just a guess. (And where was Cheney in the meantime? Apparently by all accounts except the official one he was not still sitting in his office till around 9:30.)

Ron

Thanks Ron

I don't think the report is perfect and I believe a lot of CYA and CYEEA (cover everybody else’s ...) was involved. According to the Commission the VP arrived in the tunnel where apparently they had TV’s and some secure phones at 9:37 and was still there at 9:55 and they “concluded, after reviewing all the available evidence, that the Vice President arrived in the shelter conference room shortly before 10:00, perhaps at 9:58.” *

The WP article might conflict a bit with the report it did say like the report that, “in the tunnel below the White House, Cheney stopped to watch a television showing the smoke billowing out of the World Trade Center towers, heard the report about the plane hitting the Pentagon and called Bush again”. The article also indicated that Cheney could hear Mineta when he ordered the planes down which Mineta told the Commission happened at 9:45. There’s not a huge difference between “9:45” and “shortly before 10:00” especially since they said “there is conflicting evidence as to when the Vice President arrived in the shelter conference room” and Mineta’s accuracy with these kinds of details is in doubt. It’s also possible that Mineta was in the tunnel or within earshot of the tunnel when he ordered the planes down - Mineta cursed and yelled according to the WP, Mineta said he cursed (which normally is accompanied by talking loudly or yelling) in the AoA interview.

* http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5233007

Jack wrote:

As I recall Dr. Fetzer has studied this intensively and says Cheney was outside the room in a hallway on a BACK-CHANNEL (unofficial non-monitored) telephone making unofficial phone calls talking to unidentified parties.

Ron replied:

That's exactly the kind of thing I would suspect if Cheney “disappeared" for a time. Do you recall if Fetzer cited any sources on this? It would be nice if he chimed in on this.

According to the Commission he was on a secure phone speaking with Bush.

Ron wrote:

"Scott believes that Cheney left his office soon after 9 as various accounts indicate"

Which sources are those?

Edited July 4, 2007 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

Sid, Paul and others, just when are you going to get around to citing a damning part of the “documentary”?

[Ron Ecker]

Ron wrote:

"Scott believes that Cheney left his office soon after 9 as various accounts indicate"

Which sources are those?

Geez. Read the thread, including your own posts. The photographer account (just after 9), the Richard Clarke account (Cheney preparing to leave his office as Clarke left it, "probably between 9:08 and 9:20" - Len Colby), and Cheney in the PEOC busy tracking an airplane at 9:20 (Norman Mineta). What do these accounts "indicate"? That Cheney sat in his office till 9:30? I don' t think so.

[Craig Lamson]

Ron wrote:

"Scott believes that Cheney left his office soon after 9 as various accounts indicate"

Which sources are those?

Geez. Read the thread, including your own posts. The photographer account (just after 9), the Richard Clarke account (Cheney preparing to leave his office as Clarke left it, "probably between 9:08 and 9:20" - Len Colby), and Cheney in the PEOC busy tracking an airplane at 9:20 (Norman Mineta). What do these accounts "indicate"? That Cheney sat in his office till 9:30? I don' t think so.

Geez, how long are you going to pimp these lies Ron? You have ANY honor left?

Edited July 4, 2007 by Craig Lamson