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Jack White
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Very good Jack - You've now provided evidence that at least 1 B-707 was rigged to fly via remote control.

Now please provide evidence that a standard B-757 or B-767 has that capibility built in or at the very least that adding the RC is a simple retro-fit.

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(Sid) Walker keeps making a big deal about the supposed Israeli art students "spy ring". That story was thoroughly debunked several years ago (see link below). The evidence indicates that they were merely low level scam artists pretending to be art students selling there own paintings but really selling pieces that had been "mass produced".

They came to the DEA's attention because they knocked on the unmarked door of a local DEA office. Apparently the leaked report was based on the findings and analysis of one agent who leaked it to the press his analysis was not accepted by his superiors.

A few questions unanswered by those who think they were Mossad agents involved in or with foreknowledge of 911 are:

What was their interest in the DEA (Drug Enforcement Agency) which has nothing to do with terrorism?

What evidence is there that they were shadowing the hijackers?

Why would the same team 'shadowing' the DEA also be 'shadowing' the hijackers?

Why did they act in such a conspicuous bumbling manner?

Why would an Israeli intelligence agent volunteer information about them?

I though this passage curious:

"…SIMKIN explained that they are part of a group of Israeli students who are working to earn money so that they may continue their education in Israel. All of the students travel to the United States on tourist visas and pay for their own airfare and living expenses. They remain in the U.S. for a period of four months then return to Israel. SIMKIN did not know how many students participate in this program…"

LOL John is there something you're NOT telling us?

http://www.911myths.com/Israeli_Art_Students.pdf

Len

Edit - typos

Edited by Len Colby
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Len, I just saved your pdf debunking the art student myth and haven't had a chance to read it yet. As a good American, I try never to let my lack of knowledge keep me from having an opinion. That being said, let try to answer some of your points. I am a speculator, not a believer. I think that conspiracy theories are an interesting mental exercise. Not whether they are true, but what belief in them implies. Your points were:

"What was their interest in the DEA (Drug Enforcement Agency) which has nothing to do with terrorism?"

<Intelligence agencies are involved in drug trafficing the world over. Ecstacy is the backbone of the Israeli mob and probably the Mossad. They were snooping around to secure their markets or God knows what. Their economy is in such dire straights and their export market is...? Who knows? Do they export anything that anyone buys? Oh yeah, vegatables or something, I think. Never saw one of their cars passing me on the road, that's for sure. Do they make cars? I would suspect that ecstacy is one of the main ways their government can get hard currency into the country besides slipping their hand's in the sleeping American taxpayer's pocket.

"What evidence is there that they were shadowing the hijackers?"

<The Israeli's who were taking videos of the towers and celebrating as they fell. I know these guys weren't the so called art students, but hey, they're all on the same team.

"Why would the same team 'shadowing' the DEA also be 'shadowing' the hijackers?"

<Once again, they are ALL on the same team, and it's not ours.

"Why did they act in such a conspicuous bumbling manner?"

<The same could be said about any intelligence mission that failed. Or perhaps to generate a good cover story.

"Why would an Israeli intelligence agent volunteer information about them?"

<As limited hang-out, or to embellish a cover story.

Thats not to say that all the students in the program were spies. I have no idea if any of them were spies. Please, just get them all the hell out of my country! Have a good one!

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Jack,

I don't think anything as sophisticated as a remote control system is required. A simple time-activated electronic device which takes the place of pilot instructions to the auto-pilot is all that is needed.

At a predetermined time, console commands to the autopilot are made by the device. Instructions need only be a simple sequence of heading changes or VOR beacon requests, followed by a drop in altitude. All efforts by the pilots to regain control of the plane or autopilot are simply masked by the gadget.

On the other hand - this is one area of 911 which will never be proved. It's all just speculation.

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Jack,

I don't think anything as sophisticated as a remote control system is required. A simple time-activated electronic device which takes the place of pilot instructions to the auto-pilot is all that is needed.

At a predetermined time, console commands to the autopilot are made by the device. Instructions need only be a simple sequence of heading changes or VOR beacon requests, followed by a drop in altitude. All efforts by the pilots to regain control of the plane or autopilot are simply masked by the gadget.

On the other hand - this is one area of 911 which will never be proved. It's all just speculation.

Not in Boeings which allow the pilot to override th computer and not in 757/767 which aren't fly by wire but have mechanically coupled contols, All the pilot would have to do is disengage the auto pilot.

Please cite an authoritative source saying that what you say is feasable.

How do you explain the plane radio and airphones failing to work?

Len

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Len, I just saved your pdf debunking the art student myth and haven't had a chance to read it yet. As a good American, I try never to let my lack of knowledge keep me from having an opinion. That being said, let try to answer some of your points. I am a speculator, not a believer. I think that conspiracy theories are an interesting mental exercise. Not whether they are true, but what belief in them implies.

Your reply seems to have been made in jest but even so try reading the debunking before replying

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You have submitted your Exhibit A for this topic Len.

I'll submit this article from the Sunday Herald, Novemebr 2003 as mine.

It provides a reasonable introductory overview of the case.

Five Israelis were seen filming as jet liners ploughed into the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001 ...

Here's a paragraph asa a taster:

In the car was $4700 in cash, a couple of foreign passports and a pair of box cutters – the concealed Stanley Knife-type blades used by the 19 hijackers who’d flown jetliners into the World Trade Centre and Pentagon just hours before. There were also fresh pictures of the men standing with the smouldering wreckage of the Twin Towers in the background. One image showed a hand flicking a lighter in front of the devastated buildings, like a fan at a pop concert. The driver of the van then told the arresting officers: “We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.” (emphasis added)

How profound.

Do young Israelis often carry boxcutters, false passports and jovially 'document' mass murders on their travels around the world?

Incidentally, Len, the 'Simkin' is amusing. I wonder if John has an alibi?

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Len,

Surely all autopilots are electronically coupled. All autopilots interface in some way and control the plane.

Engaging and disengaging the autopilot is a function of the autopilot - which can be altered.

Any electronically grounded functionally can be (relatively easily) substituted, replaced or over-ridden.

And no, I have no authorative sources for cite, but as a computer programmer - I can tell you this is not a particularly complicated thing to do. Autopilot control is created in software, autopilots control aircraft (by whatever means - electronic or phyisical), so replacing or intercepting the functionality of the software provides alternative control and ultimately the autopilot decides whether or not it relinquishes control to a human pilot. Under normal circumstances it yields priority to the pilot, it's child's play to alter this functionality. This could be achieved either by replacing the software - probably held in a ROM device or placing an electronic device between the autopilot and it's control console. Either way, the autopilots functions can be 'hijacked' - either by activating software which completely ignores pilot input whilst carrying out a series of instructions or transmitting a series of instructions via the electronic data lines connected to the command console of the autopilot. All this additional/revised/hijacked functionality could be activated at a specific time.

I think the bottom line is, any functionality can be altered - given time. This includes radio, autopilot or autopilot disengage servos. The point with this particular facet of 911 is we are all just spinning our wheels - there is not and will never be any proof, evidence or information available.

But IMHO, anything is possible given time. Did it happen on 911 - no idea mate.

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I still think building 6 may have had a large open space, multiple floors in height covered only by the roof. The hole appears too even with square sides. If true then only the roof would have been taken out by debris. Unfortunately, I am unable to find anything about the floor plans for building 6 online. I did find some good pics of damage to the outside of the building though.

Figures 4.8 and 4.9 here

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardi...wtc/WTC_ch4.htm

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You have submitted your Exhibit A for this topic Len.

I'll submit this article from the Sunday Herald, Novemebr 2003 as mine.

It provides a reasonable introductory overview of the case.

Five Israelis were seen filming as jet liners ploughed into the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001 ...

Here's a paragraph asa a taster:

In the car was $4700 in cash, a couple of foreign passports and a pair of box cutters – the concealed Stanley Knife-type blades used by the 19 hijackers who'd flown jetliners into the World Trade Centre and Pentagon just hours before. There were also fresh pictures of the men standing with the smouldering wreckage of the Twin Towers in the background. One image showed a hand flicking a lighter in front of the devastated buildings, like a fan at a pop concert. The driver of the van then told the arresting officers: "We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem." (emphasis added)

How profound.

How sarcastic. What exactly does this prove? By the time they were arrested the whole world had known for hours that Arabs were being blamed for the attack.

Do young Israelis often carry boxcutters

Israelis who work for a moving and storage company probably do so just about every (work) day. Even if they had foreknowledge of or involvement in the attack what would be the point of them having box cutters do you think they were they planning on hijacking a fifth plane that evening? Two Muslims from Jersey City (the same city where the Israelis worked) were arrested boarding a train in Texas 5 days after the attack "Texas authorities said the men lied about their nationality and had no legitimate identification. the two men had $5,000-10,000 in cash and box cutters of the type used by the 19 terrorists" they flew out of Newark Airport on along haul flight September 11, hmmmm. http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cm...rt_id=668126669

false passports

The article said "foreign passports" nothing about them being fake, foreign as in not American as lets say maybe Israeli.

and jovially 'document' mass murders on their travels around the world?

Lots of people shot video and took pictures of the "Twin Towers" that day. This video for example was shot from a similar location. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/w...level_smoke.wmv Their behavior was odd though but being an @$$hole isn't a criminal offence nor does it indicate foreknowledge. According to your article one of their co-workers said "These guys were joking and that bothered me. These guys were like, 'Now America knows what we go through.'"

This thread is about the faux art students in Florida. Should I take your lack of a reply to that as a tact admission on your part that you were wrong about that or at the least that you have no way to rebut the article I liked?

A part you left out of the newspaper article:

Vince Cannistraro, former chief of operations for counter-terrorism with the CIA, says the red flag went up among investigators when it was discovered that some of the Israelis' names were found in a search of the national intelligence database. Cannistraro says many in the US intelligence community believed that some of the Israelis were working for Mossad and there was speculation over whether Urban Moving had been "set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an intelligence operation against radical Islamists".

This makes it clear that there was no suggestion whatsoever from within American intelligence that the Israelis were colluding with the 9/11 hijackers – simply that the possibility remains that they knew the attacks were going to happen, but effectively did nothing to help stop them.

But even for the latter the evidence is lacking, perhaps a couple or all of them were Mossad. If so they were probably there to spy on Arab / Islamic extremists. It would make sense they were based in Jersey City which has a large Arab population, according to the NY Times "about 20 percent of city's population of 240,000 are Arabs or of Arab descent" http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/ti...amp;match=exact

The cell that carried out the 1993 WTC bombing was based in Jersey City and after the 2001 attacks according to AP the FBI questioned several Jersey City residents and "raided a run-down apartment and led away several people whose identities have not been released. Authorities say the same building was home to two men who were seized at a train station in Texas last week, carrying box cutters, thousands of dollars in cash and hair dye…Marvin Katz, a retired New York police lieutenant in the anti-terrorism unit, said it was no surprise that the latest suspects lived in Journal Square." http://www.courttv.com/assault_on_america/...uspects_ap.html

There is no evidence however that the Israeli movers shadowed the hijackers. I have never seen any evidence that they ever left the NYC area where the hijackers never spent time. Nor is there any evidence they had foreknowledge. Why would the Mossad need video footage of the attacks filmed with a camcorder from miles away when there were numerous TV crews filming from much closer? If they were Mossad and wanted to film why didn't they rent a property with a view or film from inside their van? Why would they act in such a conspicuous manner next to their readily identifiable van?

I know you have it in for Jews/Israelis/Zionists but try again, as with your 'Jewish Conspiracy' theory and Holocaust denial your 'evidence' is quite lacking.

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You have submitted your Exhibit A for this topic Len.

I'll submit this article from the Sunday Herald, Novemebr 2003 as mine.

It provides a reasonable introductory overview of the case.

Five Israelis were seen filming as jet liners ploughed into the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001 ...

Here's a paragraph asa a taster:

In the car was $4700 in cash, a couple of foreign passports and a pair of box cutters – the concealed Stanley Knife-type blades used by the 19 hijackers who'd flown jetliners into the World Trade Centre and Pentagon just hours before. There were also fresh pictures of the men standing with the smouldering wreckage of the Twin Towers in the background. One image showed a hand flicking a lighter in front of the devastated buildings, like a fan at a pop concert. The driver of the van then told the arresting officers: "We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem." (emphasis added)

How profound.

How sarcastic. What exactly does this prove? By the time they were arrested the whole world had known for hours that Arabs were being blamed for the attack.

Do young Israelis often carry boxcutters

Israelis who work for a moving and storage company probably do so just about every (work) day. Even if they had foreknowledge of or involvement in the attack what would be the point of them having box cutters do you think they were they planning on hijacking a fifth plane that evening? Two Muslims from Jersey City (the same city where the Israelis worked) were arrested boarding a train in Texas 5 days after the attack "Texas authorities said the men lied about their nationality and had no legitimate identification. the two men had $5,000-10,000 in cash and box cutters of the type used by the 19 terrorists" they flew out of Newark Airport on along haul flight September 11, hmmmm. http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cm...rt_id=668126669

false passports

The article said "foreign passports" nothing about them being fake, foreign as in not American as lets say maybe Israeli.

and jovially 'document' mass murders on their travels around the world?

Lots of people shot video and took pictures of the "Twin Towers" that day. This video for example was shot from a similar location. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/w...level_smoke.wmv Their behavior was odd though but being an @$$hole isn't a criminal offence nor does it indicate foreknowledge. According to your article one of their co-workers said "These guys were joking and that bothered me. These guys were like, 'Now America knows what we go through.'"

This thread is about the faux art students in Florida. Should I take your lack of a reply to that as a tact admission on your part that you were wrong about that or at the least that you have no way to rebut the article I liked?

A part you left out of the newspaper article:

Vince Cannistraro, former chief of operations for counter-terrorism with the CIA, says the red flag went up among investigators when it was discovered that some of the Israelis' names were found in a search of the national intelligence database. Cannistraro says many in the US intelligence community believed that some of the Israelis were working for Mossad and there was speculation over whether Urban Moving had been "set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an intelligence operation against radical Islamists".

This makes it clear that there was no suggestion whatsoever from within American intelligence that the Israelis were colluding with the 9/11 hijackers – simply that the possibility remains that they knew the attacks were going to happen, but effectively did nothing to help stop them.

But even for the latter the evidence is lacking, perhaps a couple or all of them were Mossad. If so they were probably there to spy on Arab / Islamic extremists. It would make sense they were based in Jersey City which has a large Arab population, according to the NY Times "about 20 percent of city's population of 240,000 are Arabs or of Arab descent" http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/ti...amp;match=exact

The cell that carried out the 1993 WTC bombing was based in Jersey City and after the 2001 attacks according to AP the FBI questioned several Jersey City residents and "raided a run-down apartment and led away several people whose identities have not been released. Authorities say the same building was home to two men who were seized at a train station in Texas last week, carrying box cutters, thousands of dollars in cash and hair dye…Marvin Katz, a retired New York police lieutenant in the anti-terrorism unit, said it was no surprise that the latest suspects lived in Journal Square." http://www.courttv.com/assault_on_america/...uspects_ap.html

There is no evidence however that the Israeli movers shadowed the hijackers. I have never seen any evidence that they ever left the NYC area where the hijackers never spent time. Nor is there any evidence they had foreknowledge. Why would the Mossad need video footage of the attacks filmed with a camcorder from miles away when there were numerous TV crews filming from much closer? If they were Mossad and wanted to film why didn't they rent a property with a view or film from inside their van? Why would they act in such a conspicuous manner next to their readily identifiable van?

I know you have it in for Jews/Israelis/Zionists but try again, as with your 'Jewish Conspiracy' theory and Holocaust denial your 'evidence' is quite lacking.

Len

You quote this sentence approvingly:

This makes it clear that there was no suggestion whatsoever from within American intelligence that the Israelis were colluding with the 9/11 hijackers – simply that the possibility remains that they knew the attacks were going to happen, but effectively did nothing to help stop them.

No one I know - certainly not me - believes the "Israelis were colluding with the 9/11 hijackers" although Israelis may well have killed some of these 'tried-by-media' individuals (the ones that really existed, that is). It's reported that Mohammed Atta's father believes his son was murdered by the Mossad.

And yes, that some Israelis "knew the attacks were going to happen" is a given if they were involved in perpetuating the crimes of 9-11, a proposition for which there is considerable evidence.

Rigging three WTC towers with sophisticated explosive devices prior to September 11th 2001 would not have been an easy task for "Islamic extremists" - but presumably could be done without too much difficultly by Israeli teams with the collusion of the Zionist leaseholders?

Covering up the controlled demolition of the three WTC towers would have been impossible for Islamic terrorists - but possible for the Israeli State with its links to powerful media interests in the west.

Now Len, you wrote:

This thread is about the faux art students in Florida. Should I take your lack of a reply to that as a tact admission on your part that you were wrong about that

Wrong about what? Please remind me where I said anything about "faux art students in Florida"?

You can start a topic, but they are a little like Royal Commissions; you can't always control where investigations will end.

Finally, Len, you mention the first WTC bomb attacks of 1993.

please don't get me started about that rather obvious false flag operation - or the appalling subsequent assault to civil liberties when Lynne Stewart, attorney for the framed blind sheikh, was jailed for carrying out a lawyer's duty to her client.

Edited by Sid Walker
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No one I know - certainly not me - believes the "Israelis were colluding with the 9/11 hijackers" although Israelis may well have killed some of these 'tried-by-media' individuals (the ones that really existed, that is). It's reported that Mohammed Atta's father believes his son was murdered by the Mossad.

Atta's father's story has changed (see here). First there was no phone call on September 12th (see here). Then the Mossad forced him to make the call, after which they killed him (see here). Then he said his son was supposedly "hiding in a secret place so as not to be murdered by the US secret services," since the phone call (see here). Most recently, he has praised the London subway bombers and "said the attacks in the United States and the July 7 attacks in London were the beginning of what would be a 50-year religious war, in which there would be many more fighters like his son" (source). In addition to praising the 7/7 bombings, investigation by Daniel Hopsicker has turned up evidence that Atta senior was involved in some manner with the 9/11 attacks (see here). Not a reliable source, to say the least. Still, he said the Mossad killed his son, so what the hell? Let's roll with it. :blink:

Finally, Len, you mention the first WTC bomb attacks of 1993.

please don't get me started about that rather obvious false flag operation - or the appalling subsequent assault to civil liberties when Lynne Stewart, attorney for the framed blind sheikh, was jailed for carrying out a lawyer's duty to her client.

Not too convincing. Let's see, Ahmad Ajaj, a Palestinian associated in some manner with the Sheikh group, is identified by ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE as being a Mossad mole. That's quite a bit of openness, don't you think? Nevertheless, he "was in a federal prison in upstate New York serving a six-month sentence for having entered the country on a forged passport" on the day of the bombing, so it would seem that he was only involved in the planning but not in the implementation of the bombing.

Now, all of this is certainly fascinating but how it proves that the Sheikh was "framed" is beyond me. At most, all it could suggest is that the Sheikh himself is a Mossad asset. The real story, however, seems to be that the Sheikh was an asset of the CIA (see here). The Sheikh, whom you seem to have such sympathy for, was heavily involved in Mujahideen activities in Afghanistan and his group Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya was behind the 1997 Luxor massacre of 58 tourists (which I suppose was a false flag operation by the Mossad to hurt the Egyptian tourism industry), among many other things.

I'm going to quote from the Village Voice article about the CIA and Sheikh Rahman, about earlier, similiar attacks on tourists:

The FBI received a violent reminder of the sheikh's agenda on November 12, 1992, when a terrorist hit squad linked to Abdel Rahman machine-gunned a busload of Western tourists in Egypt, injuring five Germans. In the last year, three Western tourists have been killed in Egypt and at least two dozen have been wounded, crippling the country's $2.5 billion tourist industry. When asked on an Arabic-language radio show in Washington, D.C., about terrorist attacks on foreign tourists, the sheikh replied, "Force is used with tourists. But tourists should use good manners. Tourism is not nightclubs, alcohol, gambling, fornicating. They should stay away from this behavior, the spread of AIDS and corruption with which they have filled Egypt."

What a lovable, huggable, character.

BTW, I'm also not so convinced by Len's debunking of the "art students." At the same time, I don't see how Sid can be saying he's never brought the art students up. He's been pimping the Fox News series on Israeli spying in America for awhile now, which very prominently features the art student ring.

Edited by Owen Parsons
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He's been pimping the Fox News series on Israeli spying in America for awhile now, which very prominently features the art student ring.

More odd sexual innuendo.

A week ago, I was accused of 'masturbation' on this forum. Whatever next? Paeodophilia?

The truth is that Len started this thread - not me.

He may very well prefer to confine debate to 'faux arts students in Florida' or some other distraction, but his intent was clear: to suggest that massive Israeli 'intelligence' penetration of American society is purely mythic. If he can also insinuate that the suggestion arises from malice alone, so much the better...

A confession. I have no real idea what the 200 Israeli spies were doing in the USA between 2000 and 2001. How could I? The authorities in the USA simply want to forget about the whole incident. Israeli ain't saying. The mass media is not following up.

In any case, this particular Israeli spook 'operation', while significant because there were so many arrests (it was by far the largest 'intelligence' bust on home soil in US history), is in the past.

More important, perhaps, to consider more current events.

In this context, I recommend a couple of recent articles by Christopher Bollyn, an investigative journalist who writes for American Free Press:

Israelis Hold Keys to NSA and U.S. Government Computers

Ehud Olmert's Ties to 9/11

_____________________________________-

A short quote from the former article:

The most critical computer and communication networks used by the U.S. government and military are secured by encryption software written by an Israeli "code breaker" tied to an Israeli state-run scientific institution.

The National Security Agency (NSA), the U.S. intelligence agency with the mandate to protect government and military computer networks and provide secure communications for all branches of the U.S. government uses security software written by an Israeli code breaker whose home office is located at the Weizmann Institute in Israel.

Here's an extract from the latter:

Olmert, who has long been tarnished by allegations of financial crimes, was implicated in a financial scandal involving forged receipts for donations to the 1988 Likud campaign, of which he was co-treasurer. This affair culminated in the March 1996 conviction of three other Likudniks, including Menahem Atzmon, the Likud treasurer. Olmert was also later indicted in the Likud affair, but was acquitted.

During the 1970s Olmert had worked in the law firm owned by another Atzmon, Uzi Atzmon.

Menahem Atzmon, convicted in Israel, went on to become the founder and head of International Consultants on Targeted Security (ICTS), the parent company of Huntleigh USA, the airport security firm that ran passenger screening operations at the airports of Boston and Newark on 9/11.

Huntleigh USA is a wholly owned subsidiary of an Israeli company called International Consultants on Targeted Security (ICTS) International N.V., a Netherlands-based aviation and transportation security firm headed by “former [israeli] military commanding officers and veterans of government intelligence and security agencies.”

Menachem Atzmon, convicted in Israel in 1996 for campaign finance fraud, and his business partner Ezra Harel, took over management of security at the Boston and Newark airports when their company ICTS bought Huntleigh USA in 1999. UAL Flight 175 and AA 11, which allegedly struck the twin towers, both originated in Boston, while UAL 93, which purportedly crashed in Pennsylvania, departed from the Newark airport. The convicted Israeli criminal Atzmon also controls and operates the German port of Rostock on the Baltic Sea.

Some 9/11 victims’ families brought lawsuits against Huntleigh claiming the security firm had been grossly negligent on 9-11. While these relatives have a right to discovery and to know what Huntleigh did or did not do to protect their loved ones on 9-11, Huntleigh, along with the other security companies, was granted complete congressional protection in 2002 and will not be called to account for its actions on 9-11 in any U.S. court.

Atzmon, a convicted criminal, political ally and co-defendant of Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert, was directly responsible for passenger and airline security at Boston's Logan Airport, whence the two airliners which struck the World Trade Center originated.

Bollyn recently began a weekly two-hour radio program - the archives are freely available HERE.

Bollyn's interview with international lawyer Francis Boyle (second half of second hour on July 28th) is especially recommended.

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Interesting Peter.

But tell me - Do you believe William Rodriguez to be credable simply because he is a 9/11 survivor?

Why would his beliefs be any more valid than Len's, your's or mine?

Edited by Steve Ulman
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