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Did EVEN the Warren Commission Believe Howard Brennan?


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Last comment for a while, hopefully, I need to read study more.  I do think there was a triangulation of fire and that the TSBD was "set up" as the location as part of the plan.  It was a military style ambush with other shooters which is why the assassin Brennan saw did not have to rush.  I'm not sure if they (the assassins) initially cared from what direction the shot(s) came from, as long as the end result was a dead JFK.  The thought has crossed my mind that the shot that hit Connally was purposeful - to get him out of the way of the frontal assassin on the right side of the limo.

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In Jim DiEugenio's article is this statement:

"One photo is taken from the door, straight on, to Brennan. The other is taken from behind, and he hasn’t moved."  I don't know of any photos like this.  It would be interesting to see those. 

But, he may have been speaking of the later WC exhibits that show where Brennan supposedly sat on the retaining wall.

Photos of the passenger side of the p. limo are scarcer than hen's teeth once the vehicle approaches the Houston Street turn.  There is Jay Skaggs who captures the turn onto Houston.  There is Elsie Dorman who shows Howard Brennan, but stops filming as the p. limo is in the area of the Court Records Building, and then there is the greatest source of misinformation, the Zapruder film, which does capture the passenger side of the p. limo.  The Zapruder film has no competition when viewing the passenger side of the p. limo.  Imagine that. 

I once scanned all of the available photos showing the p. limo and the various streets it traveled on when they were within about a block of so from the Main Street/Houston turn.  There was about 15 unknown photographers on the passenger side of the vehicle that could of showed that aspect of the p. limo.  What happened to their film?  Is it believable that the only people taking film from Record St. on Main to the Triple Underpass of the p. limo's passenger side were Skaggs and Zapruder?  (There is the AMIPA film of Bob Yeargan who did film the motorcade from the passenger side as it approached Record Street and went further west toward Houston.)

I don't think I have ever heard or read of anyone noticing this or making a comment.  Do you find this surreal?

Edited by John Butler
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On 8/3/2020 at 12:28 PM, Richard Price said:

If I and a few others here on the forum are correct, Howard Brennan is the ONLY person in the Plaza that saw an assassin clearly.

You'd think so, right?   Would you say he saw anything significant based on this other than a description of Robert Webster?  The man they catch was 5'9" 135lbs.... 

1637759146_Brennanisfullofit.jpg.ae860e230512ce55e9731b1287bfde6d.jpg

On 8/3/2020 at 12:28 PM, Richard Price said:

Every other person had their back to the sniper and their eyes following the parade southward along Houston and then westward.

Did this a number of years ago.... pretty sure a moment in time is NOT indicative of line of sight throughout... but I did find it interesting where everyone was facing and concentrating on... especially hard hat man by the lamp post who never seems to turn to his right to follow the motorcade... he only looks up Elm...  to name one.

1318863571_Altgens6lookinginalldirections.thumb.jpg.467ffd04a85def71901b9d39b2667202.jpg

 

Below, where he was sitting seems to force him to look at the Dal-Tex and down what he could see of Houston as it goes N past the TSBD...  we don't see him turn his body - only his head... 

I have all the frames he's in in a z140-z203 gif but having a difficult time with attachments right now....

You can still see here that he was far enough around the Elm side of the corner to see the motorcade without turning his body... maybe I see a sight shoulder turn?

Amazing stuff about him and the SS agent...  

Take care Richard...
DJ

z133---z136--shift-left.thumb.gif.30517247be368806b4e06bd95d135fdc.gif

 

 

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10 hours ago, John Butler said:

"One photo is taken from the door, straight on, to Brennan. The other is taken from behind, and he hasn’t moved."  I don't know of any photos like this.  It would be interesting to see those. 

Maybe he meant the Dorman film?   Rosemary Willis running past him at this moment...

The other is the BELL image...   https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wkx7S63i_NyfAFDi9WZo8yyyZat_Zdhz/view?usp=sharing

hvfX6VtEeW06q0_MJJy6NmPl5ILDRZDhR4-WmjdU

 

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9 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Below, where he was sitting seems to force him to look at the Dal-Tex and down what he could see of Houston as it goes N past the TSBD...  we don't see him turn his body - only his head... 

I have all the frames he's in in a z140-z203 gif but having a difficult time with attachments right now....

You can still see here that he was far enough around the Elm side of the corner to see the motorcade without turning his body... maybe I see a sight shoulder turn?

David,

On one of the pages of this thread I have a couple images of Dealey Plaza with a line drawn from where Brennan's position was and what his line of sight would have been (facing forward) in this position.

Based on that position, and what I think his overall "posture" is in the Zapruder film, I do believe he had to twist his body to see the vehicle. I did a sort of experiment where I sat on my coffee table (didn't have a wall which would work) and tried to look at something over my left shoulder. What I found was that I need to place my hand down (like he has in the Zapruder image but not in the Bell image) to give myself a little more leverage to twist fully and get the required view.

If you could, look at that and let me know your thoughts on where I place Brennan on the wall and what I believe his line of sight to be, as well as my little "experiment" above. You should also try sitting and looking over your shoulder. See how far you can pivot before you have to place your hand down for some extra leverage.

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56 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Maybe he meant the Dorman film?   Rosemary Willis running past him at this moment...

The other is the BELL image...   https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wkx7S63i_NyfAFDi9WZo8yyyZat_Zdhz/view?usp=sharing

hvfX6VtEeW06q0_MJJy6NmPl5ILDRZDhR4-WmjdU

 

David,

Could be.  But, Elsie's film was taken from the 4th floor and slightly to the west of the TSBD door.  And, Bell's film is definitely behind.  Thanks for these.  I only thought of the WC exhibits whose saintly numbers escape me at the moment.  Where I went wrong was thinking of only from the TSBD doorway.

Edited by John Butler
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37 minutes ago, Mark Stevens said:

If you could, look at that and let me know your thoughts on where I place Brennan on the wall and what I believe his line of sight to be, as well as my little "experiment" above.

Mark, what does that actually mean?   He was right there... he's right there in Dorman (colorized), in Bell, in Zapruder... the different angles and focal lengths and lens sizes will distort depth of field every time...  the link is to a large version of the Bell frame you posted (or you could have just read an earlier post on this page) and corroborates the Dorman frame.

you write as if he could have been somewhere else...

you also wrote: I've spent some considerable time trying to determine where Brennan was and what his line of sight was.

I forget if you mentioned whether you've sat in that spot... I have.  Sadly the Eastern fire escape is gone... 

your collage... 3rd row image on the right seems to be fairly close to that spot....  

Is there something you are adding to the equation that suggests where he is in this frame was not where he was?

48 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Maybe he meant the Dorman film?   Rosemary Willis running past him at this moment...

The other is the BELL image...   https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wkx7S63i_NyfAFDi9WZo8yyyZat_Zdhz/view?usp=sharing

hvfX6VtEeW06q0_MJJy6NmPl5ILDRZDhR4-WmjdU

 

Edited by David Josephs
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1637759146_Brennanisfullofit.jpg.ae860e230512ce55e9731b1287bfde6d.jpg

David,

And, it's likely that Howard didn't see a sniper.  Wrong description of the man supposedly Oswald,  he saw him standing pointed the gun out the window (physically impossible), he didn't see a scope on the rifle and he didn't see it shoot.  He couldn't identify Oswald at a lineup.  He didn't know how far away the vehicle was when he heard a shot. 

So, the question becomes how did he become a star witness for the WC?

Edited by John Butler
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11 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

I've spent some considerable time trying to determine where Brennan was and what his line of sight was.

David,

This is a Stevens quote.  It is pretty simple.  Howard could look all of the way south to Houston and Main.  He couldn't look north up Houston Street much past the TSBD corner.  He might be able to see some distance east on Elm Street (mainly blocked  by the Court Records Building).  The intersection area was all available to him.  I think he could see down to the Grassy Knoll.

What's the big deal trying to understand his line of sight?

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13 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Mark, what does that actually mean?   He was right there... he's right there in Dorman (colorized), in Bell, in Zapruder... the different angles and focal lengths and lens sizes will distort depth of field every time...  the link is to a large version of the Bell frame you posted (or you could have just read an earlier post on this page) and corroborates the Dorman frame.

you write as if he could have been somewhere else...

you also wrote: I've spent some considerable time trying to determine where Brennan was and what his line of sight was.

I forget if you mentioned whether you've sat in that spot... I have.  Sadly the Eastern fire escape is gone... 

your collage... 3rd row image on the right seems to be fairly close to that spot....  

Is there something you are adding to the equation that suggests where he is in this frame was not where he was?

It's in context of the first page being seemingly everyone trying to "figure out" where he was sitting. Multiple people seem to express confusion over where he is sitting. I was giving what I believe to be his position to help those with any confusion, for the people who think he might have been somewhere else.

I have sat in that spot, but I've only had an opportunity to go to Dealey Plaza twice (I did get film from inside the 6th floor though) and at the time I had not yet developed my Dal-Tex theory or really put a lot into Brennan's position. Honestly it may not have been the exact spot, since my beliefs weren't then what they are now.

Regarding the 3rd row photo, the other view is also the same location. It is about 3-4 directly in front of and about 6-12 inches to the left of where Brennan was sitting. I believe it is a fairly accurate representation but I do plan on getting better photos when I return to Dealey.

Basically just curious (since I do respect much of your work) if you agreed with my opinion or if it was something I should reconsider.

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9 minutes ago, John Butler said:

David,

This is a Stevens quote.  It is pretty simple.  Howard could look all of the way south to Houston and Main.  He couldn't look north up Houston Street much past the TSBD corner.  He might be able to see some distance east on Elm Street (mainly blocked  by the Court Records Building).  The intersection area was all available to him.  I think he could see down to the Grassy Knoll.

What's the big deal trying to understand his line of sight?

I guess maybe there's some confusion regarding line of sight. 

Line of sight is not someones field of view. It's not the range with with they can rotate their head left and right or behind them, it's not the view of the Grassy Knoll or any other thing except the unobstructed view directly in front of him.

I was trying to determine from his resting sitting position, what was directly in front of him. This is his line of sight. This line of sight was the Dal-Tex building. In his peripheral view he had the TSBD and by moving his head he could see all the positions you mention, it was not though his line of sight.

So when he said he looked up, from his line of sight, he was looking up at the Dal-Tex.

My point in doing that was to have verifiable proof that he was not looking up at the TSBD.

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4 minutes ago, Mark Stevens said:

It's in context of the first page being seemingly everyone trying to "figure out" where he was sitting.

Jim's initial post deals with where he SAYS he was and where he really was....  not that he was in different places according to different people here...

He moved himself over a few feet... didn't matter anyway, if you looked at that graphic with his testimony, the rifle and his line-up result he might as well been at 10th and Patton at the time...

More importantly and the rest of the thread is why did he say what he did and whether it was fed to him like so many other witness statement details.

There was NEVER a question as to where he was... you can read Weisberg and still, he's right there.

Maybe this is just a matter of you trying to jump in before you've had a chance to recognize the direction of the discussion....

So... why do you think the WC moved him and he allowed to be moved so far from his photographed position?

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1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

You'd think so, right?   Would you say he saw anything significant based on this other than a description of Robert Webster?  The man they catch was 5'9" 135lbs.... 

1637759146_Brennanisfullofit.jpg.ae860e230512ce55e9731b1287bfde6d.jpg

Did this a number of years ago.... pretty sure a moment in time is NOT indicative of line of sight throughout... but I did find it interesting where everyone was facing and concentrating on... especially hard hat man by the lamp post who never seems to turn to his right to follow the motorcade... he only looks up Elm...  to name one.

1318863571_Altgens6lookinginalldirections.thumb.jpg.467ffd04a85def71901b9d39b2667202.jpg

 

Below, where he was sitting seems to force him to look at the Dal-Tex and down what he could see of Houston as it goes N past the TSBD...  we don't see him turn his body - only his head... 

I have all the frames he's in in a z140-z203 gif but having a difficult time with attachments right now....

You can still see here that he was far enough around the Elm side of the corner to see the motorcade without turning his body... maybe I see a sight shoulder turn?

Amazing stuff about him and the SS agent...  

Take care Richard...
DJ

z133---z136--shift-left.thumb.gif.30517247be368806b4e06bd95d135fdc.gif

 

 

 

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

You'd think so, right?   Would you say he saw anything significant based on this other than a description of Robert Webster?  The man they catch was 5'9" 135lbs.... 

1637759146_Brennanisfullofit.jpg.ae860e230512ce55e9731b1287bfde6d.jpg

Did this a number of years ago.... pretty sure a moment in time is NOT indicative of line of sight throughout... but I did find it interesting where everyone was facing and concentrating on... especially hard hat man by the lamp post who never seems to turn to his right to follow the motorcade... he only looks up Elm...  to name one.

1318863571_Altgens6lookinginalldirections.thumb.jpg.467ffd04a85def71901b9d39b2667202.jpg

 

Below, where he was sitting seems to force him to look at the Dal-Tex and down what he could see of Houston as it goes N past the TSBD...  we don't see him turn his body - only his head... 

I have all the frames he's in in a z140-z203 gif but having a difficult time with attachments right now....

You can still see here that he was far enough around the Elm side of the corner to see the motorcade without turning his body... maybe I see a sight shoulder turn?

Amazing stuff about him and the SS agent...  

Take care Richard...
DJ

z133---z136--shift-left.thumb.gif.30517247be368806b4e06bd95d135fdc.gif

 

 

David, just to be sure.   You do know that the window Brennan saw the shooter in was the far eastern window on the south side of the Dal-Tex, not the western wall with the fire escapes.  This window is some 80+ feet behind the wall facing the TSBD.  This is why I say the shooter was virtually invisible to anyone watching the parade other than people on the upper floors of the building across the street to the south (the jail, etc.).  Thanks for your input.

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1 minute ago, Mark Stevens said:

I guess maybe there's some confusion regarding line of sight. 

Line of sight is not someones field of view. It's not the range with with they can rotate their head left and right or behind them, it's not the view of the Grassy Knoll or any other thing except the unobstructed view directly in front of him.

I was trying to determine from his resting sitting position, what was directly in front of him. This is his line of sight. This line of sight was the Dal-Tex building. In his peripheral view he had the TSBD and by moving his head he could see all the positions you mention, it was not though his line of sight.

So when he said he looked up, from his line of sight, he was looking up at the Dal-Tex.

My point in doing that was to have verifiable proof that he was not looking up at the TSBD.

I still don't understand your notion of line of sight.  Anywhere you look is your line of sight.  Howard picked a spot where he could view the entire area of the motorcade once it came unto Houston.  By shifting his position slightly in any direction where he sat he could see it all (the area covered by the motorcade).

Yes, he could look at the Dal-Tex.  But, he could also look at the Court Records building, the TSBD, the new Court House, etc. 

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6 minutes ago, Richard Price said:

David, just to be sure.   You do know that the window Brennan saw the shooter in was the far eastern window on the south side of the Dal-Tex,

Richard... a bit confused now.

South eastern side of DAL-TEX...  ?  From what do you reach that conclusion?

I think when he says "on the east side of the TBS" he is referencing the side of the TSBD facing the DAL TEX fire escape, not that he can see the east side fire escape on the TSBD....   I include a link to a Google Maps page showing the LOS due north from behind Brennan's location...  plus he does say TSBD, but that hardly holds any weight at this point.

Thanks....

ttps://www.google.com/maps/place/Dealey+Plaza/@32.7779395,-96.8080973,53a,35y,69.38t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x864e9915d508f639:0xcfa47bf25b709fe0!8m2!3d32.7788184!4d-96.8082993?hl=en

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was more or less observing the crowd and the people in different building windows, including the fire escape across from the Texas Book Store on the east side of the Texas Book Store, and also the Texas Book Store Building windows. I observed quite a few people in different windows. In particular, I saw this one man on the sixth floor which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you say the window on the sixth floor. What building are you referring to there?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Texas Book Store.

I was facing in a northerly direction looking across the street from where I was sitting. I take this building across the street to be about 7 stories anyway in the east endof [sic] the building and the second row of windows from the top I saw a man in this window.

This is positioned with due North straight up...

5a8348229268c_JaggerslocationnearDealeyandFBI.thumb.jpg.d06c62240e6c8ebb43819dfbde27418a.jpg

 

45 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Maybe he meant the Dorman film?   Rosemary Willis running past him at this moment...

The other is the BELL image...   https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wkx7S63i_NyfAFDi9WZo8yyyZat_Zdhz/view?usp=sharing

hvfX6VtEeW06q0_MJJy6NmPl5ILDRZDhR4-WmjdU

 

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