Did EVEN the Warren Commission Believe Howard Brennan?

[Richard Price]

David, Brennan talked in run on sentences, much like I write.  I could not find a document that I could from which I could copy his exact statement since the ones online (that I have found) are paraphrases.  I am posting a picture from DVP's website.  Notice the wording.  He says he is facing northward, but he sees "the large red building across the street (DAL-TEX).  He says he takes this building to be about 7 stories tall (It is).  In the east end of THIS BUILDING, I saw this man in the 2nd row of windows from the top (6th floor).  Once you realize he is continuing on with one thought, you can decipher what he is saying.

Note:  In the online search I did for his "voluntary statement" every reference omits his run on thought of having been looking at the "Red brick building".  If you will look at the pictures posted earlier, you will see (if you already didn't know it), the Dal_Tex building is much more red than the TSBD. 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Richard Price
This is the reason I think he had SS/FBI company for the rest of the day & night. He had to be "straightened out".

[Ron Bulman]

54 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Jim's initial post deals with where he SAYS he was and where he really was....  not that he was in different places according to different people here...

He moved himself over a few feet... didn't matter anyway, if you looked at that graphic with his testimony, the rifle and his line-up result he might as well been at 10th and Patton at the time...

More importantly and the rest of the thread is why did he say what he did and whether it was fed to him like so many other witness statement details.

There was NEVER a question as to where he was... you can read Weisberg and still, he's right there.

Maybe this is just a matter of you trying to jump in before you've had a chance to recognize the direction of the discussion....

So... why do you think the WC moved him and he allowed to be moved so far from his photographed position?

I'd venture a guess the WC moved him to make the story they coached him on sound more plausible.  I.E. that Brennan was sitting almost directly across from the snipers nest with a clear nearly straight on face to face view of the gun with no scope on it with his exceptional distance vision.  Clear enough to see the guy was in his 30's, 165 - 175 pounds.  I think Brennan was scared xxxxless and said what he was told/tried not to say anything that would rock the boat much and cause him problems.  Nothing like yeah I saw a guy in the window, but he didn't look like Oswald.  Maybe the sand blasting accident burred his vision retroactively so to speak, spurred him not to protest over where they had him sitting.

If I remember right Richard Randolph Carr said he was told (by the FBI?) "If you didn't see Oswald in the 6th floor window, you didn't see anything".  He didn't change his story, was shot at, moved to I think Minnesota, had a bomb place under the hood of his car, then attacked with a knife in Florida, killed one of the attackers and got off with self defense.

[Richard Price]

Ron, I think this exposing of what Brennan actually said starts laying a foundation for many of the people who have been studying this case.

1.  Brennan was telling the truth, but was immediately pressured to "follow the CORRECT official evidence".  This happened so fast that more than one local "official" had to know the story to be told BEFORE THE FACT.

2.  The shooter in the position he was, had to mean it was professionally planned.  That position, as I have pointed out, is VIRTUALLY INVISIBLE to everyone.

3.  If it can be determined who got onto Brennan's story and QUASHED IT, instead of investigating it much might be learned.  Was it local police, was it SS agent Sorrels (to whom Brennan says he talked) or a combination of these groups.

4. In some of his statements (even some where he is being led/directed) he mentions getting the attention of a Dallas policeman, being taken to someone higher up and then having to wait for a few minutes while the higher up person and others conferred before coming back to him.

I am awaiting the book he wrote about his experience that day.  I am also going to try to timeline his statements and decipher where he is managing to get statements of truth into the record.  He was so scared and so wanting to NOT be a part of this story, it is going to be difficult to parse with any degree of accuracy.  He readily went along with anything he was prompted to say IF it would remove further pressure on him and his family.  Once again I refer to the YouTube video where he is explaining what he saw.  As he starts to say where he say the gunman, his eyes divert upward and to the right.  This is a subconscious reaction to the words he is saying.  That direction is towards the east end of the Dal-Tex (Elm St. side) and upward (6th floor).

[David Josephs]

33 minutes ago, Richard Price said:

He says he is facing northward, but he sees "the large red building across the street (DAL-TEX).  He says he takes this building to be about 7 stories tall (It is).  In the east end of THIS BUILDING, I saw this man in the 2nd row of windows from the top (6th floor).  Once you realize he is continuing on with one thought, you can decipher what he is saying.

Hadn’t looked a it that way... TSBD is also 7 stories...  you think the man he sees is in the Easternmost window on the 6th floor Dal Tex?

  he is talking about the Dal Tex fire escape but that’s on the West side of DalTex... 

So ur talking 3rd window over, 6th or 7th floor Dal Tex was his original location for a shooter?  Due North from Brennan runs right into west side fire escape Of Dal Tex....  that link I posted...

Interesting....  That image reminded me.... Harry Weatherford Was on the Court house roof with a Rifle....

[Richard Price]

49 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Hadn’t looked a it that way... TSBD is also 7 stories...  you think the man he sees is in the Easternmost window on the 6th floor Dal Tex?

  he is talking about the Dal Tex fire escape but that’s on the West side of DalTex... 

So ur talking 3rd window over, 6th or 7th floor Dal Tex was his original location for a shooter?  Due North from Brennan runs right into west side fire escape Of Dal Tex....  that link I posted...

Interesting....  That image reminded me.... Harry Weatherford Was on the Court house roof with a Rifle....

David, that is exactly what he said.  Eastern end of "red brick" building 2nd floor down (6th floor).  He also in other testimony says he is 90 yards from the window where the shooter is located.  Using Google Earth, I have found this to be fairly accurate.  He is only 30 yards from the TSBD.  As I have pointed out in earlier posts, he seems to be VERY accurate with his directions, distances and observations.  On at least two occasions when being questioned he worked out the distance from himself to another point/person by computing the hypotenuse of the triangle formed by the distance to the point and the height of the observation (ON THE FLY AND QUICKLY).

[Ron Bulman]

3 hours ago, Richard Price said:

David, Brennan talked in run on sentences, much like I write.  I could not find a document that I could from which I could copy his exact statement since the ones online (that I have found) are paraphrases.  I am posting a picture from DVP's website.  Notice the wording.  He says he is facing northward, but he sees "the large red building across the street (DAL-TEX).  He says he takes this building to be about 7 stories tall (It is).  In the east end of THIS BUILDING, I saw this man in the 2nd row of windows from the top (6th floor).  Once you realize he is continuing on with one thought, you can decipher what he is saying.

Note:  In the online search I did for his "voluntary statement" every reference omits his run on thought of having been looking at the "Red brick building".  If you will look at the pictures posted earlier, you will see (if you already didn't know it), the Dal_Tex building is much more red than the TSBD. 

Richard, I'd like to go back and stand on the x's in the middle of Elm and look back at the window you suggest in Dal - Tex, last/3rd to the East on the sixth floor facing Elm.  I guess it's not an inconceivable shot though even further away for JFK's back or Connally.  But I have to wonder about all this.

Though Dal - Tex is definitely redder many might construe the TSBD as at least a light reddish, though in some pictures it does seem more of a tan or brown depending on the light.  I don't remember paying attention to the color in particular the times I've been there.  

In the statement above he mentions JFK being 50 yards down Elm.  Given where he was Actually sitting on the curve of the concrete "fence", facing  Dal-Tex, he would have to have at least his head turned pretty hard to the left to see this.  He then had to turn back  what 70 - 80 % to look up at the sixth floor of the TSBD, to see the scopeless gun and 30 year old 165 - 175 pound Oswald.  Or, 180% to see him in the Dal -Tex window you suggest. 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Ron Bulman

[Tony Krome]

Weatherford related??

30.06 shell casing under a lip of tar on the roof of the Records Building

 

 

[Richard Price]

7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Richard, I'd like to go back and stand on the x's in the middle of Elm and look back at the window you suggest in Dal - Tex, last/3rd to the East on the sixth floor facing Elm.  I guess it's not an inconceivable shot though even further away for JFK's back or Connally.  But I have to wonder about all this.

Though Dal - Tex is definitely redder many might construe the TSBD as at least a light reddish, though in some pictures it does seem more of a tan or brown depending on the light.  I don't remember paying attention to the color in particular the times I've been there.  

In the statement above he mentions JFK being 50 yards down Elm.  Given where he was Actually sitting on the curve of the concrete "fence", facing  Dal-Tex, he would have to have at least his head turned pretty hard to the left to see this.  He then had to turn back  what 70 - 80 % to look up at the sixth floor of the TSBD, to see the scopeless gun and 30 year old 165 - 175 pound Oswald.  Or, 180% to see him in the Dal -Tex window you suggest. 

I would like to just be in Dealey Plaza once.  I have never had the resources to take a trip out there.  The closest I have come is to use Google Earth and try to check various views (along with Google Maps Street View).  I never paid any attention at all to the Dal-Tex, other than the wall with the fire escapes that others have postulated were sources of the shots.

When Brennan mentions the 50 yards down Elm St., he is referring to where he heard the 1st shot (thought it might have been a backfire).  He doesn't say he is focused on the president, but that the CAR has reached that point.  Without being focused on the President, he could see in his peripheral vision where the car was without turning too much.  By the way, using Google Earth for measurements, the 50 yard mark is only slightly beyond the western end of the Depository building(depending on where he was using as the beginning point).  It is another 35 yards approximately to the position of the z313 head shot.

As far as how far he had to turn, he was facing almost directly across the center of the intersection at the Dal-Tex building.  The Presidential limousine would have been at almost a 90 degree angle to his view across the street, however with very minimal head/body turn the car would have been in his view at around 45 degrees or less.  The shooter's window would have been within his field of view all the time if he was looking at the center of the intersection, although not in the primary focus area of his eyes.  He would only have to turn 20-30 degrees to his right to actually focus on the window.  So, all in all with very slight shifting of his head/body he could have seen everything he said.  He has stated in other places that he got into the position he did, specifically so he had a panoramic view.  With minimal effort/movement he could see from the Main/Houston turn through the intersection at Houston/Elm and a good ways down Elm towards the triple underpass.

[David Josephs]

5 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Weatherford related??

30.06 shell casing under a lip of tar on the roof of the Records Building

 

 

I had considered that this was the real reason behind Roger Craig getting the treatment he did....

Nothing else he said would be a problem, at the time, until his getting into a Rambler - co-conspirators - would not be allowed.

And for sure, Ruth Paine would not be allowed to suffer as a result of some random blurt out by the accused....

FWIW....  Talk about location no one would be looking toward as the limo drives away on Elm...

https://www.google.com/maps/search/court+house+near+Dealey+Plaza,+Dallas,+TX/@32.7797486,-96.8071057,60a,35y,251.39h,69.65t/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

[Richard Price]

Ron or anyone else interested in seeing the view of the Dal-Tex sniper window, go the Google Maps.  Type in Elm Street and N. Houston Street as your starting point.  Use the arrows on the street to move down Elm Street to the "X" in the street, then turn the view to look back up towards the Dal-Tex building.  It will give you a good idea of the position of the windows.  It does, just so happen to have three new traffic signs which prohibit you from seeing the 6th floor though.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Richard Price
Oops, I was in the wrong location for the "x". When you move down to the correct spot, the window is visible but slightly obscured by the now 57 years older tree on the photo right of the street.

[Richard Price]

https://goo.gl/maps/2dqZnBXkdu6MYAvx5

https://goo.gl/maps/FXTTJMXZHXynUQjq5

https://goo.gl/maps/RH9F8yni14LwijCj7

These 3 links (if they work) show the view from 1) just beyond the triple underpass (east side). 2)z313 and 3)position of JFK limo when Brennan said he heard "backfire/1st shot".

[David Josephs]

1 minute ago, Richard Price said:

https://goo.gl/maps/2dqZnBXkdu6MYAvx5

Great stuff Richard...

The County Records Building is also in perfect alignment.. 

[Richard Price]

Thank you David.  Comments like that make me think that I may yet contribute to this investigation.  I started down this road when I read Paul Jolliffe's post of July 27th.  The things he brought up made me go and ACTUALLY read what Brennan said.  The way his statement read, I immediately realized that he spoke the way I do on occasion.  This is also I write unless I really focus.  I tend to get more than one thought blended into one sentence or more and the focus (subject) can get lost.  I also for the 1st time ever, actually looked into Brennan's testimony and what statements he made from the 22nd onward.  I saw a man who wanted no publicity for himself, was very concerned that he do his civic duty and who almost immediately found that HE was being told that he was wrong.  This along with being told that he was the ONLY one who could identify the shooter, made him intensely scared.  Then I learned about the SS/FBI agents almost immediately following/watching him for at least 2 days, and his subsequent "accident" in which his eyes were "sanded".  I also found that after seeing the copy of the voluntary witness statement that almost everywhere it is reproduced it is missing certain aspects and parts are changed to reflect TSBD or 6th floor TSBD instead of the actual words he said.  By looking at as many actual statements that could be attributed to him and not going through an official "filter", I found that he was very detailed in his descriptions of distances and directions (more so than the average layman).  Hopefully I will have more to come when I receive the book he helped author.

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 8/2/2020 at 7:57 AM, Mark Stevens said:

I've spent some considerable time trying to determine where Brennan was and what his line of sight was.

I've come to the personal conclusion that Brennan was not directly facing the TSBD but was instead directly facing the Dal-Tex. The TSBD was clearly in his line of sight, but was not immediately in front of him and the building as well as the "snipers nest" was to his left.

While I'm not able to speculate on his WC testimony, I believe it's evident the information he gave during the testimony is not completely accurate.

Not often mentioned is the fact that Brennan had considerable health problems after the assassination:

This may have been related to his sandblasting accident. I'm searching, but I doubt there's much information out there about that event. 

He also spent considerable time in therapy:

I bet he was obsessed with that fear, I wonder what the co-conspirators of Kennedy's Assassination were afraid he saw?

https://ibb.co/q7dM38T

https://ibb.co/pRfGXxb

This is all fairly rudimentary, but it is a collection of some of the things I have which not only show where Brennan was sitting, but what his relative view was from this position as well. Next time I'm in Dealey I plan on gathering more in this area, but that will be some time.

The various assassination video stills show where Brennan was sitting. The WC recreation is included to show that the WC placed him in the entirely wrong position and that by doing so they changed his entire perspective. The views with the yellow lines denote where he was sitting and what direction he was immediately facing. The Plaza diagram with the fountain corner also overlays this perspective and his general FOV.

The other shots are to and from this basic location as well as a shot of the spot Brennan was sitting in.

I think it's clear where exactly Brennan was sitting and which building he was immediately facing. Now I guess the question is, did he see everything he claims in the building directly in front of him or did he witness those actions in the building to his left?

https://ibb.co/BNgRRv3

Does that look and sound like someone looking at the TBSD from Brennan's position?

Personally, I don't think so.

Mark,

That was precisely my point a few days ago: by deliberately mislocating Brennan ten feet to the west along the concrete wall, the Warren Commission was able to hide the actual direction he was facing during the assassination. They had him facing due north, not northwest. And therefore, they concealed the building to which he referred in his first day affidavit ("the large, red brick building"), i.e. the Dal-Tex.

As Tim Smith pointed out in his article at "Kennedys and King", David Belin KNEW that Brennan was not where they had located him. And as I pointed out a few days ago, a confused Gerald Ford (!!!) couldn't understand then how the official exhibits could reflect a "true position."

[Joe Bauer]

Is there "any" corroborative testimony or evidence that Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford was on the roof on the the records building while JFK was passing underneath?

I haven't ever heard of any police agency personnel being on downtown building roofs during the Dallas motorcade.

I do recall Mark Lane interviewing the building maintenance man of the Post Office (?) building all the way across Dealey Plaza opposite the Texas School Book Depository who told Lane he was on the roof of that building as JFK and his motorcade turned right on Houston and then left on Elm. He described seeing a man above the grassy knoll area running fast from the parking lot area towards the Texas School Book Depository building just after the shooting and before anyone else started running up there.

The maintenance man didn't mention any police person being up there on the roof with him.

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Joe Bauer