The Far-Reaching Influence of “Harvey and Lee”

[John Butler]

4 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John,

Bizarre as it seems, there might (might) be a slight chance that Marina actually lived with another man briefly in the spring of 1963. 

Remember, our "Oswald" vehemently denied to Captain Fritz that he had ever lived at 214 W. Neely Street in Dallas, yet the Warren Commission concluded that both "Oswald" and Marina and June all lived there for the better part of two months in March and April of 1963. 

This is strange - there was no logical reason for our "Oswald" to deny living there, if, in fact, he really did so. However, if he did not actually live there, then a denial makes sense - it was the the truth!

The FBI could come up with exactly zero neighbors who could identify "Oswald" at Neely. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95675&relPageId=52

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=232&tab=page

Marguerite even said that Marina lived there with another man (and now I have to dig up and source the quote, but I've got it somewhere - I hope!)

 

 

Paul,

I'm not a great record keeper and I am constantly battling where is that thing I'm looking for. 

Once I'm through looking at other things.  I want to look at Oswalds time in Dallas and whether he was running safe houses for someone.

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

From what I see at that link, William Head provided the Register of Attendance and the FBI then "set forth as a summary" of that Register.

I gather from that link that you believe that the Register of Attendance reflects "Harvey", not "Lee" for every semester at Beauregard. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, you have "Harvey" moving into New Orleans from North Dakota in the fall of 1953, and more specifically, on arrival, moved into 126 Exchange Place.

So when "Harvey" enrolled as a part-time student at Beauregard in September 1953, what address do you believe he declared?

I don’t know. By 1954, Beauregard teacher Myra DaRouse said she drove the kid she called “Harvey Oswald” to Monte Lepre Clinic and then to his home on Exchange Alley after an accident in school.  At about the same time, the other LHO was living at 1454 St. Mary’s Street, a building owned by Julian and Myrtle Evans.

[Tony Krome]

27 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I don’t know. By 1954, Beauregard teacher Myra DaRouse said she drove the kid she called “Harvey Oswald” to Monte Lepre Clinic and then to his home on Exchange Alley after an accident in school.  At about the same time, the other LHO was living at 1454 St. Mary’s Street, a building owned by Julian and Myrtle Evans.

That is why I asked "what address do you believe he declared".

An address had to be declared, that would be a fact. As of today, you do not have that information.

Your belief is, that in the days prior to enrolling as a student at Beauregard in September, 1953, "Harvey" was residing at 126 Exchange Place, yet you are not ready to believe that he declared the same address.

Can any of the H&L followers venture a guess as to which address was declared?

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Exactly.   The French St. address on the cumulative record belonged to Lillian Murret. But the American-born LHO and the real Marguerite didn’t stay a few weeks there until 1954, after leaving NYC.  So I don’t know what the Russian-speaking kid gave as an address in 1953.  It may have been Exchange Pl.
 

[James Norwood]

19 hours ago, Bill Simpich said:

Do you have other possible double sightings like this one?

 Bill,

The double sightings are carefully documented by John Armstrong in his most recent article “Marine Corps and the Soviet Union”:  https://harveyandlee.net/Marines/Marines.html

In a presentation he gave last Thursday on Len Osanic’s show, John presented the evidence for two Oswalds in the Marines from the point of recruitment in October, 1956 through mid-1957.  During this period, the eyewitness testimony of the Marine Alan Felde is linked to documentary evidence for the experiences of Harvey Oswald at boot camp and subsequent training.  Marine Corps Unit Diaries confirm that Oswald and Felde were training together in this period, which conflicts with the documentation of the training Lee Oswald was receiving at different times.  Lee’s training experiences are documented by records and supported by the testimony of Daniel Patrick Powers.  In the article, John weaves his sources into the following narrative account:

LEE’S EARLY TRAINING

“After graduating, LEE Oswald and 5 other marines were ordered to report to Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, MS (radar school).  They departed Jacksonville, FL by train on May 2 and arrived in Biloxi, MS on May 4.  Marine Corps Unit Diary 105-57 (p 722) confirms that LEE Oswald departed Jacksonville for Biloxi, Mississippi on May 2.  Daniel Patrick Powers was in charge of the 6-member group, which included Oswald.  Reading from his Marine Corps orders, Powers told the Warren Commission that his group reported to the 3383rd student squadron, attended class # 08057 and received instruction in course # AB27037.”
  
HARVEY’S EARLY TRAINING

“From October, 1956 thru early May, 1957 HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were in California.  In May, 1957, HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were transferred to the Airframe and Powerplant (A&P) school in Jacksonville, FL.  Marine Corps Unit Diary #104-57 (pp 719, 724) confirm that Felde arrived in Jacksonville, FL on May 2, 1957.  Following the assassination of President Kennedy the Dallas Police found a 7-page handwritten account of Oswald's background.  HARVEY Oswald wrote that he had served in San Diego, CA from October 1956, to April, 1957 and at Camp Pendleton, CA in April and May, 1957.  Felde's statement to the FBI, HARVEY Oswald's handwritten chronology, and the Marine Corps Unit diaries confirm that HARVEY Oswald and Felde were both in California and did not arrive in Jacksonville until May 2, 1957.”

SUMMARY

“We now know that when HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were in ITR training and Camp Pendelton in California thru the end of April 1957, at the same time LEE Oswald was on leave in February, attended school in Jacksonville in March and April, and on May 2nd boarded a train for Biloxi with fellow Marine Daniel Patrick Powers.”

In every instance above, it is the combination of eyewitness testimony and documentary evidence that makes the case for the men’s dual training experiences.  The article continues by exploring the evidence related to the two Oswald Marines until the time of the so-called defection in October, 1959.

[Tony Krome]

25 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Exactly.   The French St. address on the cumulative record belonged to Lillian Murret. But the American-born LHO and the real Marguerite didn’t stay a few weeks there until 1954, after leaving NYC.  So I don’t know what the Russian-speaking kid gave as an address in 1953.  It may have been Exchange Pl.
 

Declaring the Exchange Place address would not have allowed entry to the Beauregard school.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

If you’re right, that IS interesting, and the first I’ve heard of it, but I’ll just say for the third time now that I don’t know what address the Russian-speaking LHO gave to Beauregard.

No pointed questions will alter the fact that the Beauregard cumulative record clearly shows that one LHO was present all but a single day of the 1953 fall semester at Beauregard School in New Orleans while another LHO was enrolled at PS 44 in New York City, some 1300 miles away.

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, James Norwood said:

 Bill,

The double sightings are carefully documented by John Armstrong in his most recent article “Marine Corps and the Soviet Union”:  https://harveyandlee.net/Marines/Marines.html

In a presentation he gave last Thursday on Len Osanic’s show, John presented the evidence for two Oswalds in the Marines from the point of recruitment in October, 1956 through mid-1957.  During this period, the eyewitness testimony of the Marine Alan Felde is linked to documentary evidence for the experiences of Harvey Oswald at boot camp and subsequent training.  Marine Corps Unit Diaries confirm that Oswald and Felde were training together in this period, which conflicts with the documentation of the training Lee Oswald was receiving at different times.  Lee’s training experiences are documented by records and supported by the testimony of Daniel Patrick Powers.  In the article, John weaves his sources into the following narrative account:

LEE’S EARLY TRAINING

“After graduating, LEE Oswald and 5 other marines were ordered to report to Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, MS (radar school).  They departed Jacksonville, FL by train on May 2 and arrived in Biloxi, MS on May 4.  Marine Corps Unit Diary 105-57 (p 722) confirms that LEE Oswald departed Jacksonville for Biloxi, Mississippi on May 2.  Daniel Patrick Powers was in charge of the 6-member group, which included Oswald.  Reading from his Marine Corps orders, Powers told the Warren Commission that his group reported to the 3383rd student squadron, attended class # 08057 and received instruction in course # AB27037.”
  
HARVEY’S EARLY TRAINING

“From October, 1956 thru early May, 1957 HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were in California.  In May, 1957, HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were transferred to the Airframe and Powerplant (A&P) school in Jacksonville, FL.  Marine Corps Unit Diary #104-57 (pp 719, 724) confirm that Felde arrived in Jacksonville, FL on May 2, 1957.  Following the assassination of President Kennedy the Dallas Police found a 7-page handwritten account of Oswald's background.  HARVEY Oswald wrote that he had served in San Diego, CA from October 1956, to April, 1957 and at Camp Pendleton, CA in April and May, 1957.  Felde's statement to the FBI, HARVEY Oswald's handwritten chronology, and the Marine Corps Unit diaries confirm that HARVEY Oswald and Felde were both in California and did not arrive in Jacksonville until May 2, 1957.”

SUMMARY

“We now know that when HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were in ITR training and Camp Pendelton in California thru the end of April 1957, at the same time LEE Oswald was on leave in February, attended school in Jacksonville in March and April, and on May 2nd boarded a train for Biloxi with fellow Marine Daniel Patrick Powers.”

In every instance above, it is the combination of eyewitness testimony and documentary evidence that makes the case for the men’s dual training experiences.  The article continues by exploring the evidence related to the two Oswald Marines until the time of the so-called defection in October, 1959.

Megathanks for that clear summary of evidence distinguishing the two LHOs in the Marine Corps from  fall 1956 through mid-1957.  In 1957, Daniel Patrick Powers was in charge of a six-man group that included the American-born LHO (Lee).  As Dr. Norwood noted in his post, when Powers testified to the WC, he read from a copy of his USMC orders from 1957, so there was little chance of mistaking places and dates.

Years ago, John Armstrong created the chart below that shows how, during the period Powers covered, the Russian-speaking LHO was demonstrably in different places than the American-born LHO.  Sources are as indicated in the notes.
 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 7/22/2020 at 6:29 PM, Paul Jolliffe said:

On 7/22/2020 at 8:11 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Ruth Pain knew that HARVEY was an imposter? Oh, I can't believe that. Unless a mistake was made and somehow she figured it out. The whole H&L operation would have been highly compartmented and each intelligence operative given just enough information to do their jobs. There was no reason for Ruth Paint to know about the Oswald Project. At least none that I can think of.

James, can you tell me where I can get more information on this topic?

 

Sandy,

Clifton Shasteen's testimony raises the possibility that both Marina Oswald and Ruth Paine were acquainted with a second "Oswald." 

According to Shasteen, the "Oswald" he knew regularly DROVE to Shasteen's barber shop in a 1955 green and white Chevy station wagon (undoubtedly this one linked below),, yet Marina insisted that her husband NEVER drove anywhere except when practicing with Ruth Paine. 

https://wtvr.com/2016/07/15/lee-harvey-oswald-car/

This LHO was accompanied on at least two occasions by a 14-year old boy, but no such boy was ever in the company of our "Oswald" in Dallas, let alone identified and questioned. 

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shasteen.htm

Further:

Gertrude Hunter and Edith Whitworth were adamant (they never backed down) that Marina and two children had been to their Furniture Mart in Irving in the company of a man in the first week of November of 1963.This man drove the family there in a two-toned Ford.  Gertrude Hunter provided details about seeing Marina around town a number of times before the visit to the Furniture Mart - she even correctly described the rose jacket Marina wore one time!

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you saw Mrs. Oswald, or who you think was Mrs. Oswald, in ,the Station there that day before you saw her in the Furniture Mart; is that right?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you saw her in the Furniture Mart, did you recognize her?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; it didn't dawn on me I didn't think a thing in the world about it.
Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me, do you remember how I was dressed and was I pregnant at that time?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
*Mrs. OSWALD. And what did I have on?
Mrs. HUNTER. All I know is you had on a jacket.
*Mrs. OSWALD. What color?
Mrs. HUNTER. It was pretty chilly--it was a rose or more of a--it wasn't red.
Mrs. OSWALD. Was it blue?
Mrs. HUNTER. It was more of a rose.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I had a rose short one. 
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you testified before you had seen Mrs. Oswald several times.
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but I didn't know who she was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the other times you saw her.
Mrs. HUNTER. I have seen her in Minyards Grocery Store.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is that?
Mr. McKENZIE. [Spelling] M-i-n-y-a-r-d-s.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that?
Mrs. HUNTER. On Irving Boulevard.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Grocery store?
Mrs. HUNTER. And this drive-in grocery that I was talking about, if you remember there I think I had seen her there.

 

 While it may seem that this man must have been our "Oswald" at the Irving Furniture Mart the first week in November, in fact, the Warren Commission simply could not place him there.

Why not?

Because they had irrefutable evidence that our "Oswald" was indeed at work at the TSBD at that very time!

And since they wanted no part of a second LHO, they were forced to conclude, in spite of the convincing testimony, that Whitworth and Hunter were (somehow) wrong. Wesley Liebeler even went so far as to arrange an actual visit to the Furniture Mart. He nearly succeeded in getting Marina to deny ever having been there, until she said added that she didn't know whether she'd been there!

Mr. LIEBELER. You are now standing directly in front of the store at 149 East Irving Boulevard, aren't you?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure you have never been here before?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I have never been here before.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. McKenzie?
Mr. McKENZIE. No.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know if I were inside this store, but I don't recall it now.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize this store as a place you have ever been before?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions, and this will adjourn the deposition."

With that, Liebeler (figuratively) threw in the towel. 

To sum up, there are strong hints in the testimony of at least three Irving witnesses that a second LHO was driving around Irving in the company of Marina, and very possibly in Ruth Paine's automobile.

The fact that the Warren Commission and FBI were unable to resolve these contradictions does not inspire confidence in the "official" narrative. 

 

James, thanks for your reply. And Paul, thanks for preparing that information for me. I'm very grateful.

Paul, I do now recall reading about these incidences, perhaps in Jim DiEugenio's book. Thing is, I hadn't even heard of Harvey & Lee when I read it, so the thing about compartmentalizing the Oswald Project didn't occur to me at that time.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 7/24/2020 at 7:15 AM, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Translation: any photo that appears to refute the H&L theory is suspect. Any photo that seems to confirm it is authentic.

 

Sort of like what you do when you say the missing tooth in the Life Magazine photo is really a film defect.

Sort of like what you do with ALL the H&L evidence.

 

[James Norwood]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

On 7/24/2020 at 8:15 AM, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Translation: any photo that appears to refute the H&L theory is suspect. Any photo that seems to confirm it is authentic.

 

Sort of like what you do when you say the missing tooth in the Life Magazine photo is really a film defect.

Sort of like what you do with ALL the H&L evidence.

Sandy,

Very well stated!  Jim Hargrove wrote an extremely clear statement on 7/24 about how the photographs presented on his website are for ancillary purposes; they are not the primary basis for reaching conclusions from the articles:

"Finally, no photos are going to be deleted from my website.  I agree entirely with Dr. Norwood that photos by themselves don’t prove much of anything.  They are too easy to misrepresent, among other things.  John Armstrong dealt with photos by using evidence about the LHOs developed from documentary and witness sources to develop biographies.  He then sometimes published photographs associated by the WC (and other “investigations”) and the National Archives with that Oswald, letting readers make up their own minds about the evidence.  John agrees entirely that the photographic record may well have been highly manipulated."

Anyone who carefully studies the articles on Jim's website will recognize that the narrative discussion and the arguments being made are not primarily dependent upon photographs.

To my way of thinking, the most interesting facet of the photographic evidence related to Oswald is how the government and the mainstream media have used suspicious photographs for purposes of propaganda, such as the photos of men taken in Mexico City who clearly were not Oswald, or the notorious "backyard photo" that appeared on the cover of LIFE magazine on February 21, 1964.  The photo caption reads, “Lee Oswald with the weapons he used to kill President Kennedy and Officer Tippit.”  This conclusion was drawn by the editors of LIFE long before the Warren Commission had prepared its report, reinforcing to the public a perception of Oswald's guilt that has continued in the mainstream media to today. 

James
 

[Tony Krome]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

No pointed questions will alter the fact that the Beauregard cumulative record clearly shows that one LHO was present all but a single day of the 1953 fall semester at Beauregard School in New Orleans while another LHO was enrolled at PS 44 in New York City, some 1300 miles away.

We know that Myra DaRouse taught Physical Education to the girls in Oswald's grade, so obviously another teacher taught Physical Education to the boys in the same grade for the spring semester of 54.

So you have two Oswalds in the same grade, at the same time, and you have a score of "73" for Physical Education.

Do you have yet another Physical Education teacher for that grade that separately taught the other Oswald?

Did the school not notice that there were twice as many scores for "Lee Oswald" for a whole range of subjects for that semester, that would have been forwarded to head office by their respective teachers?

The document shows 4 days absent for that semester ..... was that "Lee" or "Harvey" or was it cumulative?

The Attendance Register clearly shows in the H&L world, that head office has amalgamated two different Oswalds, for in 54/55, the record has to reflect "Lee" as you have "Harvey" already moved to Texas.

What did the two Oswalds do when they saw each other out in the schoolyard at lunchtime? High 5 ?

[James Norwood]

26 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

What did the two Oswalds do when they saw each other out in the schoolyard at lunchtime? High 5 ?

Tony,

The purpose of this thread is to engage in discussion about the evidence related to the two Oswalds and to engage in debate about the issues.  The purpose of the thread is not to engage in parlor games.

Yesterday, you wasted a lot time in attempting to use photographs to challenge the truth about the two Marguerite Oswalds.  When I pressed you on the provenance of one photo, the best answer you could come up with was that the source of the photo came from Getty!

Now, you have shifted your focus to the topic of Beauregard Junior High School.  This topic has unlimited potential for discussion and debate.  But it has no such potential if you persist in asking flippant questions like the one you raised above, and others that you know very well are unanswerable.

Why don't you take the time to study the evidence of two Oswalds studying at the same school in spring 1954, then bring back a question or commentary based on either the abundant eyewitness testimony and/or the documents.  If you do that, I will engage in discussion with you.  If you persist with your game of "20 Questions," I will stop reading and responding to your posts.

James

 

[Tony Krome]

37 minutes ago, James Norwood said:

The purpose of this thread is to engage in discussion about the evidence related to the two Oswalds and to engage in debate about the issues.  The purpose of the thread is not to engage in parlor games.

Yesterday, you wasted a lot time in attempting to use photographs to challenge the truth about the two Marguerite Oswalds.  When I pressed you on the provenance of one photo, the best answer you could come up with was that the source of the photo came from Getty!
 

After reading this on the harveyandlee site;

THE MARGUERITE OSWALD IMPOSTOR AND HARVEY WERE LIVING AT 101 SAN SABA IN BENBROOK FROM JULY THROUGH NOVEMBER, 1947 WHILE MARGUERITE (OSWALD) EKDAHL WAS LIVING WITH LEE (AND ROBERT AND JOHN DURING THE SUMMER) AT 1505 8TH AVENUE. MORE IMPORTANT, HOWEVER, WAS THAT 101 SAN SABA WAS OWNED BY MARGUERITE (OSWALD) EKDAHL AND WAS RENTED TO THE MARGUERITE OSWALD IMPOSTOR FOR 6 MONTHS. THESE TWO WOMEN KNEW EACH OTHER IN 1947.

I assumed that both parties were familiar with each other.

As for Getty, I provided a link that I thought was credible;

You said: such as a record of where and when the photo was taken and by whom

The link said: 

Joe B. Brown;Jack Ruby [Misc.];Marguerite Oswald

(L-R) Judge Joe B. Brown & Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, mother of Lee Harvey Oswald, during Jack Ruby's murder trial. (Photo by Donald Uhrbrock/The LIFE Images Collection via Getty Images/Getty Images)

 

 

[Mark Stevens]

On 7/22/2020 at 8:24 PM, James Norwood said:

Mark,

Here is a summary of our debate activities during the past two weeks:

 

Quote

(1)  You posted a 6,822-word critique of the Stripling evidence entitled "The Stripling Episode - Harvey  & Lee:  A Critical Review"

Odd that are aware of the word count, but not the content.

Quote

(2)  I responded with a 2,500-rebuttal entitled "James Norwood’s Point-By-Point Rebuttal of Mark Stevens, 'The Stripling Episode - Harvey & Lee: A Critical Review'"

You didn't really address anything I said though, just because you talked a lot doesn't mean you said anything of real substance. Of the 2500 words only 714 were even marginally related to my post or the content in it.

What you pointed out in your item (7) is exactly what I'm saying. Due to anomalies in the evidence, it is difficult to make firm conclusions regarding Stripling. I'm glad we both can at least agree on Summers.

Quote

(3)  You responded with a 4,650-word screed to my rebuttal that appears on this thread. 

.....

Quote

(4)  After you solicited "feedback" on your response, I wrote you my honest feedback.

......

Quote

(5)  You wrote a mocking reaction to my feedback above.

For a guy in a glass house you're quite thin skinned.

Here's a summary of some of your mockery:

Quote

You responded with a 4,650-word screed

I must confess that his writing and thinking, as expressed in his critique, were some of the most incoherent and bizarre that I have ever read in my life.

Another user on this site referred to your reasoning as comparable to “The Twilight Zone.”  While I might not select that metaphor, it does seem like a number of your sentences carry a meaning that only you understand. (Note: this "user" was fellow compatriot Sandy Larsen)

nearly incomprehensible critique of the evidence of Oswald having attended Stripling Junior High School written by a user named Mark Stevens.

Stevens, et al. haven't studied the evidence, and it's more fun for them to engage in harassment, as opposed to a civilized discussion.

I know, it was all genuine feedback. You pointed out the sections you "couldn't understand" when I asked you, repeatedly...wait...you actually didn't. So while you can pretend you're giving genuine feedback what you are in reality doing is expressing your condescending disdain at someone who has the audacity to challenge vague recollections and dubious connections.

Quote

Now, you want another chance at a debate, requesting that we start from scratch with a convoluted plan to "pose X amount of questions to one another and whoever can decide what the evidence supports and what it does not."

You keep referencing these chances and offers, but so far all you've done is dance around the issues and post irrelevant information.

Quote

 

Please be advised that I will not be wasting any more of my time in debate with you on this subject.  On this forum, I am primarily interested in interacting with individuals on the subject of this thread:  the far-reaching influence of Harvey and Lee.  I am not interested in spending my time with those who wish to create a toxic environment.

You have the totality of my current thinking on the Stripling topic, and you are welcome to respond to any of the eight topics below to your heart's content:

[COPY PASTE REMOVED]

 

You did at least concede that the anomalies in Summers statements make him a dubious witness and I appreciate that look at the evidence. All I wish is that you would give the other anomalies the same consideration. Schubert for instance has the same flaw as Summers, her timeline doesn't fit. While her timeline may be off by months and his may be off by years, she is still confident in her recollection as to the specific months due to her insistence on the jackets and the colder weather. This timeline makes whatever she saw a dubious connection to "Harvey & Lee."