The Far-Reaching Influence of “Harvey and Lee”

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

We can disagree about the specifics of who the two LHOs were, but at the 2018 Spy Wars meeting in San Francisco, Peter Dale Scott answered a question from John Newman about LHO’s Russian language abilities.

Jim,

It's more like what John Newman said.  It kind of surprised me.  The man who followed the paper trail of Oswald in Mexico City said this:

On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2020 at 6:52 PM, John Butler said:

PDS: … and then, by the way… this is just a question… are you absolutely convinced that the man who was “Lee Harvey Oswald” in Russia was, in fact, the man picked up in Dallas in 1963?
JN: Not at all.  And I’ve gone over to the view that in Mexico City that, maybe it’s him, maybe it’s not. So I’m not going to be dogmatic about it. He could have been there and impersonated or could have been not there at all.

Could have been not there at all has been my opinion on Oswald and Mexico City all along.  It has recently been cemented by the work of David Joseph.

As far as Harvey and Lee in Russia, I'll have to think about all to the bits and pieces that make me conclude there is more to the story than just Harvey in Russia.  I'll get back to you at a later date.

 

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

PDS: … There is a fragment of a release that says that the man who made the phone calls spoke horrible Russian AND English!  So, I do not think that was the man in Dallas. And I actually think, and this is completely anecdotal, but I once had an hour long conversation with Marina when I was trying my hardest not to bring up the assassination, and we were talking about literature, and I said did she like Henry James and she said that she had never heard of Henry James, who was Henry James, and I said, oh, he's sort of like the American Turgenev, and she said, "Oh, Turgenev, Alec really loved Turgenev." The man who checked out books from the New Orleans Public Library was not a lover of Turgenev."

There is another interesting snippet of the Scott/Newman conversation.  PDS is talking Harvey and Lee without mentioning it.  When Marina said she had two husbands, she is talking about more than a bi-polar guy.

[John Butler]

Jim,

There is another thing to consider when talking about who went into Russia first, Harvey or Lee.  This is the elephant in the room.  No one that I have read talks extensively about that most brutal and inhumane agency, the KGB.  I've just assumed that most people knew about the KGB and interrogation techniques.

Here are a couple of examples of the KGB and their methods:

KGB interrogation techniques:

https://kgbespionagemuseum.org/nkvd-interrogation-instruction/

KGB interrogation chemical usage:

https://kgbespionagemuseum.org/nkvd-inquisitor-tools/

Let's assume Lee Oswald went into Russia first.  Would he have been able to keep any secrets from the KGB?  Even though he may have had the rumored MK-Ultra treatments, I don't think he could have kept anything back from the Russians.  They had decades of experience torturing/interrogating perhaps hundreds of thousands of people.  Their experience and techniques in interrogation were vast.  I don't think Lee could have remained unbroken.

Lee as an infiltrator/defector would have been told by his handlers cooperate fully and enthusiastically.  Present yourself as pro-communist with information vital and necessary for their defense (his radar info, aviation electronic knowledge, and the U2 info).

What did Lee have to offer the Russians?  What was his reason for going there?  How could he convince them, a most paranoid group, he was not an American spy?  These are vital questions in the story of Harvey and Lee.

Now, let's assume Harvey was first into the Soviet Union.  Could he hide his language abilities from the KGB.  I don't think so.  I don't think he would have been able to hide anything.  He would have been broken by the KGB.   Or, if they couldn't they would have known he was a trained agent and suspected like Captain Fritz he had been trained in interrogation techniques and would therefore be a spy.

We can ask the same questions of Harvey that we have asked of Lee?  There is a way for Harvey to be acceptable to the Russians.  That is he would be totally honest with his background.

He would confess that he was an American agent.  Give up his background as a East European immigrant who knew Russian from his childhood.  He would tell them of the Oswald Project and his years of being trained to be a defector.  He would offer willingly everything he knew about US intelligence, the Oswald Project, the U2, Atsugi, Japan (the greatest CIA outpost in Asia) and all of the Marine military info he had.  They would have gotten this out of him anyway.  His hope would be to convince them he was a disaffected American who had been used ruthlessly by American intelligence agencies since he was a child.  He would have to convince the Russians that he hated America, his abuse there as an Oswald Project member, his early rebellion, and later plan to make it to a better place in the Soviet Union.

I don't think US intelligence people would think that they could pull the wool over the eyes of the Russians.  Whoever went first, Harvey or Lee, would give up any and everything they knew to Russian interrogation.  They really didn't need defectors to Russia on such a low level.  They already had higher level intelligence being delivered to them from Russian traitors and informants.  So, the marginal intelligence of living in Minsk or some other area, IMO, was not the reason for the defection of Oswald. 

I don't think this scenario has been fully explored.  We know the Russians accepted Oswald.  But, we don't really know why?          

Edited August 15, 2020 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

I’m a little confused by your posts.  You are saying you think both LHOs were in the Soviet Union and you’re wondering which one went there first?    I just don’t see the evidence for both having been there.

Also, from what I’ve read, American intel really didn’t trust at least some of the Russian defectors.  Look how they treated Yuri Nosenko!  They practically tortured him for three years.

[John Butler]

18 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

I’m a little confused by your posts.  You are saying you think both LHOs were in the Soviet Union and you’re wondering which one went there first?    I just don’t see the evidence for both having been there.

Also, from what I’ve read, American intel really didn’t trust at least some of the Russian defectors.  Look how they treated Yuri Nosenko!  They practically tortured him for three years.

Jim,

There is no real proof for either Harvey or Lee as first into Russia, or for both being there at one time..  It could have been either one, or both early on in late 1959 and early 1960.  Your basing you belief on Harvey based on his language ability.  And, as a spy/infiltrator he would be the most likely to be there first.  Here's my notes on conclusions on the issue.  There is an important question that has never been fully answered.  Why did Harvey take a ship to Europe?  Force of habit?  Lee flies to Europe on a MATS flight in Oct., 1959 even after he was discharged in March, 1959. 

Think about where Lee was from the fall of 1959 to the fall of 1960.

Notes on Harvey and Lee in Russia

KGB interrogation techniques:

https://kgbespionagemuseum.org/nkvd-interrogation-instruction/

KGB interrogation chemical usage:

https://kgbespionagemuseum.org/nkvd-inquisitor-tools/

Conclusion: Neither Harvey or Lee would have been able to fool KGB interrogators.  And, as a defector Oswald would be interrogated extensively until the Russians were satisfied.  Harvey would not be able to hide his Russian language ability.  Nor would he be able to hide his training in resisting interrogation.  Captain Fritz picked up on that after just a few hours of questioning in Dallas.  That would me more and extensive interrogation.  The period of time between Oct. 31, 1959 and November 13, 1959 is a period that not much is known about what Oswald was doing.  The US Embassy tried to send a letter to Oswald during this period and failed. 

Where was Oswald?  He could have been in the Lubyanka entertaining the Russians..

Radar and Electronic Aviation Experience of Harvey and Lee:

Harvey:

1. Jacksonville. Fl- May 2, 1957 - the Naval Air Technical Training Center in Jacksonville, FL.  This is for the Marine Corps Aviation Electronics School.

2. Memphis, Tn- July 7, 1957- Aviation electronics- The date is hard to read and could be the 11^th.  This is for the Aircraft Control and Warning Operator Course

3. AWOL in New Orleans from September, 1957 to August, 1958.

4. Harvey serves as a Marine Radar Operator from August, 1958 to September, 1959.  His service areas were Ping Tung, Taiwan, Iwakuni, Japan, and Santa, Ana, CA starting in Oct. 31, 1958. 

 

Harvey’s radar operation and training experience consisted of two training classes and approximately a year service as a radar operator.  Actually, his discharge papers said his MOS was a radio operator not a radar operator.  He was originally trained as a radio operator.  That was his military occupation specialty.  He did not work in aircraft maintenance and repair. 

It is possible that the received additional training, but there are no records of such training.  He does say he had two radar training classes with the US Army in a letter.  He would have knowledge of Marine codes, procedures, and other military knowledge.  He would not have knowledge of the U2 that Lee would have.

Harvey’s training and postings to secret military bases was not as extensive as Lee’s experiences.  However, Harvey's knowledge was less extensive than Lee's knowledge, it would still be valuable to the Russians.

Lee:

1. Fall 1956, PFC Lee Oswald is at El Toro working in aviation maintenance and repair with SGT Ransberger.  This is something Harvey could not have done by entering the Marines in Oct., 1956.

2. 18 March, 1957 to 3 May, 1957.  This was for the Aviation Electronics Operator class.  The MOS 6741 is related to Aviation Electronics Operator.

3. May, 1957 to 19 June, 1957-Biloxi, MS.  This is for the Aircraft Control and Warning Operator Course

4. August-September, 19570 Mar Corp Air Base, El Toro, CA, and ship to Atsugi, Japan from El Toro

5. From July 9, 1957 to November 15, 1958 Lee was at El Toro, Ca, ship to japan, Atsugi, Japan, assignment to the Phillipines and the South China seas.  Return to Atsugi, Japan and then later back to El Toro, Ca.  The time overseas is about one and a half years.  Note on Atsugi, Japan:

6. The Atsugi Naval Air Station was the largest and most secret in the Marine Corps.  It was the home of the intelligence forces in Asia.

7.  

1. It was responsible for the defense of Central Japan.

2. The Office of Naval Intelligence had a unit stationed there.  The Air Force did also.

3. A large CIA operation of about 1,000 people were stationed at Atsugi.  They were known as the Joint Technical Advisory Group.

4.  Another large CIA operation was the U2 spy plane operation.  The maintenance crews for the U2 plane stayed in the same barracks, Barracks 5, as Oswald and the Marine radar operators.  Although not conclusive, this could have offered Lee Oswald intimate knowledge of how the U2 worked and was maintained.  For someone working in intelligence it would have been an easy task to befriend one or more of the U2 maintenance crew and obtain secret and valuable information.

5.  The Defense Nuclear Agency had a unit there called METO.  This unit was an atomic bomb assembly unit.  It was a very much more than a top-secret operation.  Some believe this was the important information that Lee Oswald had to offer the Soviets.

6.  Korean village north of the base.  One of the strangest things to be found at Atsugi was a Korean village north of the base. This was a unit to train Korean infiltrators for eventual infiltration of North Korea.

7. December, 1958, pre-Dec. 22:  Harvey and Lee mentioned Lee Oswald was assigned for a short period of time in December, 1958 to Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada, Area 2 (Lake Meade Marine base north of Las Vegas).  Lake Mead Base was a storage and transfer area for nuclear weapons which were tested at the Nevada Test Site.  This information would have been valuable to the Soviets.  And, there were other Nellis complexes were in the area. 

8. This may have been for just a couple of days before Dec. 22, 1958 when he returned to the El Toro base.  Or, it could have been longer depending on how he spent his leave.

9.  

 

1. December, 1958, pre-Dec. 22, 1958:  Lee Oswald was assigned for a short period of time in December, 1958 to Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada, Area 2 (Lake Meade Marine base north of Las Vegas).  Lake Mead Base was a storage and transfer area for nuclear weapons which were tested at the Nevada Test Site.  This information would have been valuable to the Soviets.  And, there were other Nellis complexes were in the area housing the U2 and A12 spy planes. 

2. This may have been for just a couple of days before Dec. 22, 1958 when he returned to the El Toro base.  Or, it could have been longer depending on how he spent his leave.

3. From January 19, 1959 to January 23, 1959- Vincent AFB in Yuma, Arizona.  Yuma Air Force Station (1956-1963) - A Cold War Air Force Radar Station first established in 1956 near Yuma, Yuma County, Arizona. Named Yuma Air Force Station after the location. This was a Strategic Air Command facility.  Initially assigned a Permanent ID of SM-162, later a Sage ID of Z-162. This base was abandoned in 1963.  What was Lee doing there?

 

Conclusion:  Who had more valuable intelligence information to temp the Soviets.  From this listing above the answer would be Lee.  As an example Lee Oswald had intelligence information of codes, procedures, protocols, equipment, etc on the Marines and the Navy from the US to the South Pacific and Japan.  Lee had greater access to more restricted Top Secret bases than Harvey that had super-secret military equipment.

Lee Oswald from March, 1959 discharge from Marines- Gorsky info

March, 1959 Lee Oswald discharged from the Marines and is whereabouts is mostly unknown for 1959.

 

Post January, 1959- William Huffman told the FBI that he saw Oswald "sometime after Castro came to power (January, 1959)." Oswald and four or five Cubans fueled a 43 foot Chris Craft diesel boat at his dock. Oswald telephoned a man named "Ruben" in Key West, who came to the dock and paid for the fuel. "Ruben" may have been Jack Ruby, who ran guns to Castro in the late 1950s from Florida and from a house in Kemah, Texas. Ruby's neighbors remember him well and remember his many weekend trips to Cuba in a 50 foot surplus military craft that was loaded with guns.  (this could be after the March discharge)

In June 19, 1959, Valentine Ashworth was a 29-year-old pilot affiliated with the "Cuban Raider Command" whose headquarters were in San Juan, Puerto Rico. He was awarded the rank of Captain and reported to Colonel Ramon Barquin and Colonel Martin Helena. In June, Ashworth roomed with Lee Oswald in New Orleans while the two men were trying to join Cuban exile groups.

8-17-1959- Miami- Mrs. Gladys Davis put on a considerable amount of weight after giving birth in April 1959. She was still having trouble getting into her old clothes in August when a friend of her husband's, a Cuban known as "Mexicano," visited her home at 700 Saldana Street in Coral Gables, Florida. "Mexicano," whose real name was Francisco Rodriguez Tamayo, was a Cuban exile who was residing at 2484 Northwest 29th St. in Miami.76 He was well known to the anti-Castro Cubans and identified by Cuban refugee Rene Carballo as the head of one of the training camps at Lake Ponchartrain, LA. 77 Mrs. Davis said her husband, Martinez Malo, often brought numerous Cubans to their residence. On one occasion, when "Mexicano" came to her home looking for her husband, he was accompanied by Lee Oswald. (again this could be after March, 1959 discharge of Lee)

9-12-1959- Alleged hunting trip with Lee Oswald at the Mercer Farm.  (This is Harvey. Lee could not fit the description “home on leave” at any time reference for this photo)

9-16-1959- Robert says Lee left for New Orleans. (actually Harvey)

Conclusion:  To sum up, Lee Oswald is discharged from the Marines in March, 1959.  Most of the period after his discharge in 1959 is unknown for his whereabouts and activities.  There are three days out of 6 months listed above. 

During the period March, 1959 to about October, 1959 very little is known about Lee’s activities.  He seems to be working for about 6 months after March, 1959 with anti-Castro forces.  Details of where Lee is drop off after the fall of 1959.

On the other hand, Harvey is well accounted for until the fall and his discharge.  And, presumably into Russia and his stay there.    

Lee in Europe in Oct.-Nov. 1959 to possibly Oct., 1960 or the late fall

John Pic Warren Commission Hearing

On Sunday, November 1, John Pic's (and LEE Oswald's) cousin, Marilyn
Murret visited Pic and his family at Tachikawa Air Base in Japan. Pic
told the Warren Commission, "In approximately Oct-Nov, early November,
the end of October 1959 (probably October 25) she called me up at the
hospital......and I invited her out to the house the next weekend.
She visited us on Sunday (Nov. 1), I believe...she talked about the
family, and everything....she talked about LEE....she said, 'Do you
know that LEE is is in Europe?" Somewhat surprised Pic said, "No, I
don't know that."

Steenbarger Interview HSCA 1978- MATS Flight to Germany at mid-October 1959.  Two Oswalds in Europe in mid-October 1959?  Finland is a short distance from Germany.

Jim Rizzuto (Steven H. Landesberg, the student) said that he met Steve L'eandes (Steven R. Landesberg, the actor) and Lee Oswald in the Marine Corps at Camp Lejune in the summer of 1956.  This is not possible unless Lee joins the Marines in about March, 1956 at age 16.

Essentially, Rizzuto said that he met Steve L'eandes (Steven R. Landesberg (actor) and Lee Oswald in the Marine Corps at Camp Lejune in the summer of 1956. 

After his Marine service he kept in touch with L’eandes by post card.  L’eandes sent post cards from Stockholm, Leningrad, and Moscow in 1960.  L’eandes was accompanied by Lee Harvey Oswald and Earl Perry in their journeys around Europe and Russia in 1960.  Rizzuto was told by L’eandes that Oswald was back in the states and had gone to Texas.

10-1-1960- Marita Lorenz testimony for this time period: 

Mr. Fithian. "All right. Now I want to be sure that I have your dates correct. You said the first meeting of Lee Harvey Oswald, the first time you saw him, was at a Safehouse in Miami in 1960. Marita Lorenz. "Yes."  She said this was in the late fall of 1960.  Marita Lorenz is the first event we know of for Lee in the US in 1960 in the later fall.

Conclusion:  To sum up we don’t know where Lee was from the fall of 1959 to the fall of 1960.  The only information on Lee’s activities for late 1959 and to the fall of 1960 has him in Europe and Russia.  He may have been there for a year.  If Leandes can be believed he sent post cards from Leningrad and Moscow.

Language Abilitly:

1. Lee Oswald did not speak Russian at all or very little.  He was not known for doing this in the Marines.

2. Harvey Oswald was said to speak Russian expertly.  He is known for speaking Russian well and reading Russian books and newspapers while in the military.

3. There are episodes from witness testimony that have Oswald in Russia as a bumbling American who cannot or is unwilling to learn the Russian language.  This is early on before the advent of Marina Oswald.

4. About the time Marina Oswald shows up we find Oswald in Russia has a great knowledge of Russia and folks note that he speaks with a Polish or Baltic accent.  At least Marina thinks so.

5. There are those that say Harvey Oswald hid his knowledge of Russian and was able to fool the KGB and a language instructor with his hidden Russian knowledge.  I don't think so.

Conclusion:  The Oswald that couldn’t or wouldn’t speak Russian is Lee Oswald.  And, the Oswald that could was Harvey Oswald.  The Oswald who couldn’t speak Russian well was not Harvey trying to hide his language abilities.  His apartment was bugged and 30 KGB operatives were assigned to watch him.  It would be hard not to make mistakes in over a two year period.  Besides they probably knew from the beginning. 

The Russians knew who he was and what he was, but were willing to cooperate to get his extensive military knowledge learned during his 3 year service.

The Russians (contrary to Dick Helms) knew who he was and what he was far better than we who don't. 

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by John Butler
Someone or the software is messing with what I posted.