H&L - The Harvey Row

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

IIRC, Lee Oswald attended Beauregard for three semesters: Spring 1954, Fall 1954, and Spring 1955. Assuming Ed Voebel was also attending those semesters, he could have been aware of Lee as early as January 1954. From then until August 1955 is 19 months. So Ed could have known Lee for up to 19 months.

Voebel is quite clear in his testimony. He says he did not know who Oswald was prior to him being aquainted;

Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. I don't exactly remember when I first saw him because I might have seen him going to school and back without knowing who it was

He continues the same sentence;

Mr. VOEBEL. but I really became acquainted with him

So, when Voebel told police that he knew Oswald for 1-1/2 years, we take 18 months from August 55, back to somewhere in the early/middle of the 54 Spring Semester.

I believe in the early/middle 54 Spring Semester, Voebel became "acquainted" with Oswald

 

I don't think so. According to Armstrong's book, Ed Voebel first became acquainted with Lee Oswald when Lee had the fight where his tooth was knocked out. That was in the Fall Semester of 1954 according to the book. Well, I said in my prior post that they became acquainted in October 1954, which I also got from the book. So that must have been when Armstrong figures the fight was. Armstrong dated the fight by interviewing Johnny Neumeyer and by getting dated a Hallmark ad that can be seen above the blackboard in the Lee-Oswald 9th-grade classroom photo.

So, Ed first became acquainted with Lee in October 1954 right after the fight. And the number of months from October 1954 to Armstrong's end-of-friendship date of August 1955 is ten. So either Ed Voebel's 18-month estimate is too high, and/or Armstrong's August 1955 date is too early.

 

3 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

So between the start of the 54 Spring Semester and up to the point at which Voebel and Oswald became acquainted, Voebel "might have seen him going to school and back without knowing who it was"

 

[Tony Krome]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

So, Ed first became acquainted with Lee in October 1954 right after the fight. 

Myra DaRouse, in her video interview, said the event below occurred in "February, early March" at the end of basketball season;

Myra DaRouse remembers one incident in particular: On one occasion we were practicing basketball in the schoolyard. Ed Voebel comes running out and says, 'Ms. DaRouse! Ms. DaRouse! Come inside quick!" So Dorothy Duvik [another teacher] and I went into the basement, and there on the floor was Harvey, and an upright piano that had fallen, [on] his legs from the waist down. So with the help of Ed Voebel [we] pulled the piano up, and I asked him if he was hurt, asked Harvey if he was hurt, and he said no, he didn't think so. And I said well maybe we should call your mother and he said no, because she is at work: "She is working at the bar."

Myra says this event was before the fight, she says "The piano was before the fight outside Oh Yes!"

Where in the timeframe do you place this incident?

[Jim Hargrove]

Ed Voebel knew both LHOs when each attended Beauregard, although he probably regarded them as just two different kids with the same last name.   As Myra DaRouse indicated in the interview, the piano episode with HARVEY occurred during the spring semester of 1954, well before the fight.

The fight between LEE Oswald and Johnny and Mike Neumeyer occurred in the next school year, probably October of 1954, while LEE was still at Beauregard in New Orleans and HARVEY was at Stripling in Fort Worth.

There’s a lot more to all of this, especially involving Mr. Voebel following the assassination, but he may have been another man who simply knew too much.  Here’s how John wrote about his early death on the EARLY YEARS page of HarveyandLee.net.

Ed Voebel's knowledge of HARVEY and LEE may have been the reason that he died at the young age of 32, only one day after being admitted to the Ochsner Clinic in New Orleans in May, 1971. Voebel's father said that his son, healthy one day and dead the following day, died under mysterious circumstances.  He told the House Select Committee on Assassinations that he thought his son's death had something to do with Oswald and the JFK assassination, but he had no proof.

NOTE: In 1961 Dr. Alton Ochsner, founder of the Ochsner Clinic, set up the Information Council of the Americas (INCA). CIA-connected Ed Butler was appointed executive director and in 1963 conducted a radio interview with HARVEY Oswald on WDSU radio. This radio station was owned by Edgar and Edith Stern, who were major financial contributors to INCA. Another major supporter and financial contributor was Eustis Riley, of the Riley Coffee Company, who hired HARVEY Oswald in June, 1963. Another supporter and close friend of Ochsner's was the CIA's Clay Shaw, director of the International House, the large building where CIA agent William Gaudet watched HARVEY Oswald pass out FPCC literature. Shaw was indicted by DA Jim Garrison and charged with participating in the assassination of President Kennedy. While Clay Shaw was director of the International House, Dr. Alton Ochsner was president of the International House. The FBI file on Dr. Ochsner shows a long and involved relationship with the US military, the FBI, and other US government agencies. According to Ed Veobel's sister, her brother was admitted to and died at the Ochsner Clinic. The local newspaper, however, reported that Ed Voebel died at the Memorial Hospital.

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Myra DaRouse, in her video interview, said the event below occurred in "February, early March" at the end of basketball season;

Myra DaRouse remembers one incident in particular: On one occasion we were practicing basketball in the schoolyard. Ed Voebel comes running out and says, 'Ms. DaRouse! Ms. DaRouse! Come inside quick!" So Dorothy Duvik [another teacher] and I went into the basement, and there on the floor was Harvey, and an upright piano that had fallen, [on] his legs from the waist down. So with the help of Ed Voebel [we] pulled the piano up, and I asked him if he was hurt, asked Harvey if he was hurt, and he said no, he didn't think so. And I said well maybe we should call your mother and he said no, because she is at work: "She is working at the bar."

Myra says this [falling-piano] event was before the fight, she says "The piano was before the fight outside Oh Yes!"

Where in the timeframe do you place this incident?

 

There were multiple fights. The one you speak of here is not the one where Lee Oswald lost his tooth. But I'll get back to this one in a moment.

Earlier you wrote:

 

12 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Voebel is quite clear in his testimony. He says he did not know who Oswald was prior to him being aquainted;

Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. I don't exactly remember when I first saw him because I might have seen him going to school and back without knowing who it was

He continues the same sentence;

Mr. VOEBEL. but I really became acquainted with him [....]

So, when Voebel told police that he knew Oswald for 1-1/2 years, we take 18 months from August 55, back to somewhere in the early/middle of the 54 Spring Semester.

I believe in the early/middle 54 Spring Semester, Voebel became "acquainted" with Oswald

So between the start of the 54 Spring Semester and up to the point at which Voebel and Oswald became acquainted, Voebel "might have seen him going to school and back without knowing who it was"

 

Had you finished quoting Ed Voebel's sentence I highlighted above, you would have had the answer as to when Ed Voebel became acquainted with Lee Oswald. Here is the complete sentence:

Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. I don't exactly remember when I first saw him because I might have seen him going to school and back without knowing who it was, but I really became acquainted with him when he had this fight with this boy, and we took him back into the boy's restroom and tried to patch him up a bit.

This is the fight where Lee lost a tooth and where he and Ed became friends. And this occurred in October 1954 as I showed in my prior post.

Therefore, there was no contact between Ed Voebel and Lee Oswald prior to this time, October 1954.

This is very important to recognize, because it helps us understand what Myra DaRouse said, which you quoted in you last post, which I quote above. For convenience sake, I will repeat the quote here, breaking it up into parts that I can address one-by-one:

 

Quote

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

Myra DaRouse, in her video interview, said the [piano falling] event below occurred in "February, early March" at the end of basketball season;

 

In his book, Armstrong says that the piano incident occurred in the spring of 1954, around February. So that agrees with the Myra DaRouse interview.

 

Quote

Myra DaRouse remembers one incident in particular: On one occasion we were practicing basketball in the schoolyard. Ed Voebel comes running out and says, 'Ms. DaRouse! Ms. DaRouse! Come inside quick!" So Dorothy Duvik [another teacher] and I went into the basement, and there on the floor was Harvey, and an upright piano that had fallen, [on] his legs from the waist down. So with the help of Ed Voebel [we] pulled the piano up, and I asked him if he was hurt, asked Harvey if he was hurt, and he said no, he didn't think so. And I said well maybe we should call your mother and he said no, because she is at work: "She is working at the bar."

 

Right... the piano incident where a piano fell on Harvey Oswald. Recall that this cannot be referring to Lee Oswald because Ed wouldn't become acquainted with him for another eight months. Myra is talking about a different boy here.

 

Quote

Myra says this event was before the fight, she says "The piano was before the fight outside Oh Yes!"

 

Yes, there was a fight some number of days after the piano incident. But this wasn't the epic one described by Ed Voebel in his WC testimony as moving from block to block and ending with a lost tooth and cut lip. This was one of the small scuffles Harvey Oswald found himself in because of the teasing he got from some of the boys who made fun of his northern "Yankee" accent. In this one, Myra herself got Lee cleaned up afterward. Myra never saw Harvey Oswald again after the end of the semester, June 1954. She was completely unaware of the epic lost-tooth, cut-lip fight that Lee Oswald was involved in eight months later.

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Sandy Larsen

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yes, there was a fight some number of days after the piano incident. But this wasn't the epic one described by Ed Voebel in his WC testimony as moving from block to block and ending with a lost tooth and cut lip. This was one of the small scuffles Harvey Oswald found himself in because of the teasing he got from some of the boys who made fun of his northern "Yankee" accent. In this one, Myra herself got Lee cleaned up afterward. Myra never saw Harvey Oswald again after the end of the semester, June 1954. She was completely unaware of the epic lost-tooth, cut-lip fight that Lee Oswald was involved in eight months later.

Megathanks for this explanation, Sandy.  I thought Mr. Krome was talking about the Johnny and Mike Neumeyer fight, and the subsequent sucker punch. 

Obviously not, though.

I suspect that Ed Voebel's WC testimony was altered, and here's why.  We know full well that the WC altered witness testimony.  For example:

If memory serves, Roger Craig also said his WC testimony was altered many times.  I’ll bet others have said the same thing.

I don’t know what happened in 1971 to precipitate Ed Voebel’s killing.  It was way too early for concerns about the HSCA.  But repercussions in 1971,  just eight years after the Kennedy hit, were surely as intense or more intense than they are today, 57 years later.

I've thought about this for years.  Look at Mr. Voebel's testimony (emphasis added):

Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald, and under which circumstances? Just tell me generally how that came about.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, it was at school.
Mr. JENNER. Is that Beauregard Junior High School?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what year that was?
Mr. VOEBEL. Let's see. I will have to figure that out. That was about 1954 or 1955.
Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of him?
Mr. VOEBEL. Going to school there. Do you want me to tell you the whole story?
Mr. JENNER. Well, let's get in a few preliminary remarks first. I would like to have a little background in the record before we go into that.
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. I don't exactly remember when I first saw him because I might have seen him going to school and back without knowing who it was, but I really became acquainted with him when he had this fight with this boy, and we took him back into the boy's restroom and tried to patch him up a bit.

Where are the preliminary remarks Mr. Jenner asked for?  Why does Ed Voebel launch into the whole story right away? Was something cut?

Why did Ed Voebel die at the age of 32 at Ochsner Clinic?

 

[Tony Krome]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Ed Voebel knew both LHOs when each attended Beauregard, although he probably regarded them as just two different kids with the same last name.   As Myra DaRouse indicated in the interview, the piano episode with HARVEY occurred during the spring semester of 1954, well before the fight.

So if we overlay Voebel's 18 month timeframe, it happens to coincide with the Piano Incident all the way through to Oswald's CAP days.

You have confirmed that Voebel knew both Oswalds in your quoted text.

Therefore, Voebel knew of Harvey Oswald in the 54 spring semester, and according to Sandy, he became acquainted with Lee Oswald later in the 54 fall semester.

[Ron Bulman]

If this went all the way "through to Oswald's CAP days."  Did Ferrie know both Oswald's, which ones in the picture with him?  Later did Shaw/Bertrand know both?  Bannister?  David Altee Phillips?   

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

Honest scrutiny of HarveyandLee.net is really appreciated.

Jim will be pleased to learn that his friend from down under, Greg Parker, is providing plenty of honest scrutiny of the hardlylee.nut website:

- https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2248-deceptions-and-errors-of-fact-the-early-lives-of-harvey-and-lee

- https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2250-deceptions-and-errors-of-fact-frank-wisner-and-world-war-ii-refugees

- https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2252-deceptions-and-errors-of-fact-1947

There may be more to come, and each of these may well be updated and added to in the future. Jim must keep his eyes peeled and be sure to thank Greg for his really appreciated scrutiny. Of course, if there's anything Jim disagrees with, we'll look forward to seeing him join Greg's forum to debate him there.

[Sandy Larsen]

On 7/30/2020 at 8:15 PM, Tony Krome said:

So if we overlay Voebel's 18 month timeframe, it happens to coincide with the Piano Incident all the way through to Oswald's CAP days.

You have confirmed that Voebel knew both Oswalds in your quoted text.

Therefore, Voebel knew of Harvey Oswald in the 54 spring semester, and according to Sandy, he became acquainted with Lee Oswald later in the 54 fall semester.

 

Right. Ed Voebel was buddies with Harvey Oswald from February to June 1954. He was buddies with Lee Oswald from October 1954 to August 1955, when Harvey was no longer attending the school.

The fact that Voebel became acquainted with Oswald on two different dates, February 1954 and October 1954, under completely different circumstances each time, tells us that there were two Oswalds. Unfortunately, these dates rely on the memories of only one person each, teacher Myra DaRouse and student Johnny Neumeyer.

However, if we compare the natures of the two friendships (Ed/Harvey and Ed/Lee) we see that they were completely different. Which again points to two Oswalds.

1. According to Ed Voebel, he didn't spend time with (Lee) Oswald at school or during school events, and would go straight home after school every day. He did, however, meet up with Oswald when he was downtown and shot pool and played darts with him.* (Lee Oswald lived above a pool hall at the time.)
2. Yet according to Myra DaRouse, Voebel and (Harvey) Oswald were best friends at school and would pal around together there. (Recall that the piano at school fell on Oswald because he and Voebel were horsing around.) And she would often see Voebel and Oswald riding bicycles together after school.*

 

*SOURCES

Ed Voebel Describing His Friendship with (Lee) Oswald:

Mr. JENNER. Did some other boys pal around with you and Lee?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I can remember. You see, the only relationship we had after this fight I told you about, was when I would be downtown and stop in, and we would play pool or play darts, but I don't remember participating in any events with Lee at school. For example, I don't remember having played ball or anything with Lee, so probably our gym periods were different.
I used to go straight home after school, and I think he did too, so there was no buddying around on either of our parts at school. I had a lot of friends and many acquaintances, but I don't think Lee did.

Myra DaRouse Describing Ed Voebel's Friendship with (Lee) Oswald:

John Armstrong's Interview with Myra DaRouse, Part1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Sandy Larsen

[Jonathan Cohen]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

However, if we compare the natures of the two friendships (Ed/Harvey and Ed/Lee) we see that they were completely different. Which again points to two Oswalds.

 

So are you telling us that Ed Voebel had no idea he had befriended two different people?

[Sandy Larsen]

57 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

However, if we compare the natures of the two friendships (Ed/Harvey and Ed/Lee) we see that they were completely different. Which again points to two Oswalds.

So are you telling us that Ed Voebel had no idea he had befriended two different people?

 

Well of course Voebel knew he had befriended two different people. Because they WERE two different people. The first one went by the name Harvey Oswald and the second by the name Lee Oswald.

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Sandy Larsen

[Jonathan Cohen]

17 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Well of course Voebel knew he had befriended two different people. Because they WERE two different people. The first one went by the name Harvey Oswald and the second by the name Lee Oswald.

 

That's what YOU say. That isn't what Voebel says. Please show me specific evidence from Voebel's testimony where he clearly articulates that he was friends with TWO different and distinct boys both with the last name of Oswald during this time period.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Jonathan Cohen

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

That's what YOU say. That isn't what Voebel says. Please show me specific evidence from Voebel's testimony where he clearly articulates that he was friends with TWO different and distinct boys both with the last name of Oswald during this time period.

 

I gave the proof above.

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Sandy Larsen

[David Josephs]

19 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Well of course Voebel knew he had befriended two different people. Because they WERE two different people. The first one went by the name Harvey Oswald and the second by the name Lee Oswald.

 

When you strip away 50+ years and one's inability to think as if it were 1963... this post is fantastically pure and simple...

Oswald was a fairly common name along with its variations...  and the two "Boys" Ed sees couldn't have been more different in size, shape or demeanor...

The time frame is early 1954 versus late 1954.... the little 14-year old boy Ed knows in Feb '54 who had a piano fall on him, is not the much later almost 15 year old Lee he meets 10 months later...

The FBI reports are a mess as usual... mixing 54-55 with 55-56 as they never can seem to understand the difference between a school year and a calendar year.

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

That isn't what Voebel says

Yeah, "what Voebel said"....   no he didn't say those words but did mention the differences in the two boys.. he didn't have to... they were obvious and Jenner was avoiding the subject...

H&L p121:   The person Albert Jenner had in mind when questioning Voebel was the accused assassin,
Harvey Oswald. The pattern of conduct for Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was
very different from that of Lee Oswald. Harvey continuously criticized the US government,
continuously discussed and promoted communism, continuously supported Russia
and Cuba, and threatened the life of US Presidents. Harvey Oswald carried Marxist
pamphlets in his back pocket at age 13 in North Dakota, allegedly read communist
books at age 14, ·wrote to The Worker at age 15, discussed communism with high school
classmates in Fort Worth at age 16, promoted communism and tried to join a communist
cell in New Orleans at age 17, supported Cuba and read Russian literature while
in the Marines in California at age 18, defected to Russia at age 19, worked in Russia
at age 20, married a Russian woman at age 21, passed out Fair Play for Cuba literature
at age 23, and was accused of assassinating President Kennedy at age 24. Russianspeaking
Harvey Oswald had a life-long interest in communism, and was was very different
from New Orleans born Lee Oswald.

Jon, were ever aware that there are a couple hundred of Armstrong's notebooks at the Baylor archives... The recent reorg there tho makes them virtually impossible to search, sadly.   Before that happened I downloaded a large number of these notebooks as there are documents contained within that are not available anywhere else... John and Malcolm spent years copying everything they could from the archives...  - what was it YOU have done to forward your understanding other than denounce that which you fail to understand?

There really is so much you simply have not even looked at let alone dig into and understand...  

In these notebooks we find the FBI repeatedly writing "55-56" when they meant "54-55"...  not a huge deal but the different between New Orleans and Ft Worth in his life...

 Memorandum
TO SAC (89-69) DATE: 11/25/63
FROM SA NATHAN 0. BROWN
SUBJECT: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT
JOHN F. KENNEDY, 11/22/63,
DALLAS, TEXAS
EDWARD VOEBEL, who resides at 4916 Canal (location
of Quality Florist Company) advised he knew OSWALD at Beauregard
Junior High School during 1955 and 1956

Having graduated in June 1955... Oswald got a job at TUJAGUES 

H&L p.120

Voebel, who was Oswald's best friend in New Orleans and visited his home on
many occasions, knew these stories were not true. Voebel told the Commission, "I have
read things about Lee having developed ideas as to Marxism and communism way back
when he was a child, but I believe that's a lot of baloney ..... .! am sure he had no interest
in those things at that time." Commission attorney Jenner asked, "You heard the
rumor, or read about them at any rate, that Lee Oswald was studying communism when
he was 14 years of age, did you not? ... Did you see any evidence of that when you were
going around and associating with Lee Oswald?" Voebel replied, "No; none whatever.
As far as I know, I was the only one who would enter his home, around that age, so I
would be the only one to know􀁇 and I can say for certain that the only things Lee would
be reading when I would be at his home would be comic books and the normal things
that kids read."24

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Please show me specific evidence from Voebel's testimony where he clearly articulates that he was friends with TWO different and distinct boys both with the last name of Oswald during this time period.

 

You would expect a witness to pipe up about other people he knew just because they share the same last name?