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Tippit Motive and Rifle Chain of Evidence, looking for some guidance.


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I'm trying and not succeeding to find some clear and concise data on two subjects related to the assassination.

1. I'm trying to find the clearest case for Oswald's motive in Tippit's shooting. I have found a few speculative theories, but does anyone know where I can find why the police thought HE did it? I've read a few things that cover the shooting itself and varying opinions on the validity of the witnesses. But I can't find any decent essays or reports on the lead up to the shooting and what sparked it all off. Was Tippit looking for LHO? Did he know Oswald worked at the TSBD, and realised he wasn't where he should be and made the greatest deductive leap in criminal history? Did Oswald just panic and shoot a cop? (I'm not looking for theories on whether LHO did the shooting. But the reasons why, those who believe he did it, think he did it...)

2. In trying to close off an argument between me and a pal, I am trying to get the most definitive timeline and chain of evidence for the Rifle focusing on the elusive palm print. In particular how the FBI missed it, yet the DPD claimed it was visible before they sent it to Washington. Did the officer who found the print wipe it clean before sending it? Did the FBI not disassemble the rifle? That sort of stuff. I'm hitting a lot of "For some undisclosed reason, the rifle was returned to Dallas o the 27th..." type stuff, and would love to find the full tale of the rifles journey, or as close as we can get to it.

I'm trying to be as objective as I can, so I'm open to any and all ideas and sources. You guys are, collectively, the smartest people I've encountered on the subject (even those I mostly disagree with) so I'm hoping you can help me out.

Thanks

(If running 2 query topics on one thread violates any forum rules or protocols, I apologise. Let me know and I will split the post.)

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2 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

2. In trying to close off an argument between me and a pal, I am trying to get the most definitive timeline and chain of evidence for the Rifle focusing on the elusive palm print. In particular how the FBI missed it, yet the DPD claimed it was visible before they sent it to Washington. Did the officer who found the print wipe it clean before sending it? Did the FBI not disassemble the rifle? That sort of stuff. I'm hitting a lot of "For some undisclosed reason, the rifle was returned to Dallas o the 27th..." type stuff, and would love to find the full tale of the rifles journey, or as close as we can get to it.

The below link is to a very detailed presentation I gave in Dallas last Nov...  the fingerprints discussion begins on slide 47...
https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-evidence-is-the-conspiracy-the-carbine-on-the-6th-floor

I was able to find a video of the dismantling and reassembly of the Carcano... as well as an Italian site with everything you'd ever want to know about Carcano...

Many, many images as well showing where that palm print was found according to Day...  I hope this helps...  There are a couple other articles I've written about the rifle and the timelines involved...  among other things...  you can find my full list of articles once you're there...

I'd also recommend harveyandlee.net as John Armstrong did an amazing job tracking down the information related to that rifle...  I took his work even further.
http://harveyandlee.net/Guns/Guns.html     We don't see eye to eye on everything rifle related or all the ancillary activities... but the skeleton and muscle is there...

Take care and welcome to the Forum!

DJ

 

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Hi Tommy, welcome to the forum.

You might want to check out Mark Lane's book "Rush To Judgement" and Chapter 5 "Why Oswald Was Wanted" for a more thorough explanation.

The short version is that there was no roll call at the TSBD just after 12:30 PM, and Oswald was not the only employee missing out of those who were working on the sixth floor.

The description that fit Oswald but didn't contain Oswald's name went out on the police radio at 12:45 PM. According to the Warren Report, Oswald wasn't noted missing until at least 1:00 PM, and probably not before 1:22 PM (when the rifle was discovered.) Warren Report, pg. 156

Quote

Although Oswald probably left the building at about 12:33 p.m., his absence was not noticed until at least. one-half hour later. Truly, who had returned with Patrolman Baker from the roof, saw the police questioning the warehouse employees. Approximately 15 men worked in the warehouse 413 and Truly noticed that Oswald was not among those being questioned. 414 Satisfying himself that Oswald was missing, Truly obtained Oswald's address, phone number, and description from his employment application card. The address listed was for the Paine home in Irving. Truly gave this information to Captain Fritz who was on the sixth floor at the time. 415 Truly estimated that he gave this information to Fritz about 15 or 20 minutes after the shots,416 but it was probably no earlier than 1:22 p.m., the time when the rifle was found. Fritz believed that he learned of Oswald's absence after the rifle was found.417 The fact that Truly found Fritz in the northwest corner of the floor, near the point where the rifle was found, supports Fritz' recollection.

Testimony of Roy Truly, Superintendent/Director of the TSBD

Quote

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did you see?
Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.
Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.
There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.
So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not.

Oswald was not the only 6th floor employee missing. Charles Givens was also not present. Testimony of Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer.

Quote

Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made sometime before 12:45 p.m., and after the 12:43 p.m., call, "Attention all squads, description was broadcast and no further information at this time."
Does that mean the description you made was rebroadcast?
Mr. SAWYER. I rebroadcast that description. That is what that means.
Mr. BELIN. I then notice on this radio log---I don't see anything more under 9, at least until after the, well, it is down until we have gone as far as 1:30 p.m., I don't see anything else, do you, sir?
Mr. SAWYER. No. There is another broadcast in there somewhere, though. I put out another description on the colored boy that worked in that department.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean the colored boy that worked in that depository?
Mr. SAWYER. He is one that had a previous record in the narcotics, and he was supposed to have been a witness to the man being on that floor. He was supposed to have been a witness to Oswald being there.
Mr. BELIN. Would Charles Givens have been that boy?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, I think that is the name, and I put out a description on him.
Mr. BELIN. How do you know he was supposed to be a witness on that?
Mr. SAWYER. Somebody told me that. Somebody came to me with the information. And again, that particular party, whoever it was, I don't know. I remember that a deputy sheriff came up to me who had been over taking these affidavits, that I sent them over there, and he came over from the sheriff's office with a picture and a description of this colored boy and he said that he was supposed to have worked at the Texas Book Depository, and he was the one employee who was missing, or he was missing from the building.
He wasn't accounted for, and that he was suppose to have some information about the man that did the shooting.

Testimony of Charles Givens

Quote

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. GIVENS. Three.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you heard them?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, we broke and ran down that way, and by the time we got to the corner down there of Houston and Elm, everybody was running, going toward the underpass over there by the railroad tracks. And we asked--I asked someone some white fellow there, 'What happened ?" And he said, "Somebody shot the President." Like that. So I stood there for a while, and I went over to try to get to the building after they found out the shots came from there, and when I went over to try to get back in the officer at the door wouldn't let me in.
Mr. BELIN. Did you tell him you worked there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; but he still wouldn't let me in. He told me he wouldn't let no one in.
Mr. BELIN. This was the front of Elm Street?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes. So I goes back over to the parking lot and I wait until I seen Junior.
Mr. BELIN. Is that Jarman?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes. They were on their way home, and they told me that they let them all go home for the evening, and I said, "I'd better go back and get my hat and coat."
So I started over there to pick up my hat and coat, and Officer Dawson saw me and he called me and asked me was my name Charles Givens, and I said," yes."
And he said, "We want you to go downtown and make a statement."
And he puts me in the car and takes me down to the city hall and I made a statement to Will Fritz down there.

 

Edited by Denny Zartman
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Truly also had to wait until 1pm when Fritz returned... 

Truly was telling Lumpkin who was telling him to wait, then finally they went up to the 6th floor...  it seemed all along Truly had Oswald in Mind...


Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing? 
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. 
Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees? 
Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was missing. 
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you got that information? 
Mr. TRULY. Chief Lumpkin of the Dallas Police Department was standing a few feet from me. I told Chief Lumpkin that I had a boy missing over here "I don't know whether it amounts to anything or not." And I gave him his description. And he says, "Just a moment. We will go tell Captain Fritz." 
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened? 
Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some nature I didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we will go upstairs".
So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to the sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor. And he was over in the northwest corner of the building. 
Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there? 
Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs. 
Mr. BELIN. All right. 
Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted to tell him. 
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened 
Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that effect.
And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr. Truly. We will take care of it.

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9 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Truly also had to wait until 1pm when Fritz returned... 

Truly was telling Lumpkin who was telling him to wait, then finally they went up to the 6th floor...  it seemed all along Truly had Oswald in Mind...


Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing? 
Mr. TRULY. No, sir. 
Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees? 
Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was missing. 
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you got that information? 
Mr. TRULY. Chief Lumpkin of the Dallas Police Department was standing a few feet from me. I told Chief Lumpkin that I had a boy missing over here "I don't know whether it amounts to anything or not." And I gave him his description. And he says, "Just a moment. We will go tell Captain Fritz." 
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened? 
Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some nature I didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we will go upstairs".
So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to the sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor. And he was over in the northwest corner of the building. 
Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there? 
Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs. 
Mr. BELIN. All right. 
Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted to tell him. 
Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened 
Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that effect.
And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr. Truly. We will take care of it.

"it seemed all along Truly had Oswald in Mind".  Maybe even before?

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Regarding the rifle palm print, I would suggest checking out Sylvia Meagher's book "Accessories After The Fact" pgs 120-127 and see if any of that information answers your questions.

5 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

I'm trying to find the clearest case for Oswald's motive in Tippit's shooting. I have found a few speculative theories, but does anyone know where I can find why the police thought HE did it? I've read a few things that cover the shooting itself and varying opinions on the validity of the witnesses. But I can't find any decent essays or reports on the lead up to the shooting and what sparked it all off. Was Tippit looking for LHO? Did he know Oswald worked at the TSBD, and realised he wasn't where he should be and made the greatest deductive leap in criminal history? Did Oswald just panic and shoot a cop? (I'm not looking for theories on whether LHO did the shooting. But the reasons why, those who believe he did it, think he did it...)

I'm not 100% convinced it was Oswald that shot Tippit, but I'll try to go along with the theoretical.

To me, the Tippit shooting is very suspicious even if Oswald was the killer. It was this aspect of the case that first began to pique my interest, because the official version doesn't pass the smell test, in my opinion.

While Oswald was in his rooming house getting a jacket and a handgun, a police car pulled up front and honked its horn lightly twice before driving away. Were there really two cops (or men dressed as cops) in the car? Or is it possible that it was one cop in the driver's seat and a cop's uniform hung near the window, as was the case with J.D. Tippit? Either way, I believe the occupant or occupants of the police car outside Oswald's rooming house were conspirators that were signaling Oswald. If so, that seems to me would explain why Oswald would be able to walk calmly up to Tippit's police car instead of running in the opposite way, the way one might expect an assassin to do when attempting to escape the authorities after committing the crime of the century.

Could Tippit reasonably be a conspirator? If I'm correct, he was out of his jurisdiction at the time of his death. Additionally, there was a report of him making a mysterious short phone call at a record store just prior to his shooting.

Tippit wasn't there to drive Oswald to a safe house or Redbird airport, like Oswald might have believed. That would have become clear to Oswald during their conversation through the car window. What ever was said or seen during that conversation, as a result Oswald might thought his life was in immediate danger. Reasonably so, in my opinion, since Officer Tippit had ignored two crucial opportunities to call for backup and apparently was drawing his gun at the time he was shot. If mere apprehension and arrest were Oswald's true fear, wouldn't he have made better getaway plans? This is a man who had the ability, according to the official story, to leave and re-enter the country at a moment's notice using nothing but public transportation. Yet he makes a clean getaway from two crimes, boarding at least two motor vehicles during that time, and for some mysterious reason he couldn't get any farther away than a movie theater.

It seems to me that if Oswald did indeed shoot Tippit, it was because Tippit was intending to kill Oswald. I also believe that Oswald was meant to be shot in the Texas Theater as plan B. Heck, I believe it is possible that it was a policeman's gun that misfired in the arrest scuffle, not Oswald's. That might just be speculation on my part, though.

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This was my long essay on the updates in the tippit case.  I do not think Oswald shot TIppit:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-tippit-case-in-the-new-millennium

Go to McBride's Into the Nightmare for the long version. The Warren Commission screwed up the Tippit case as much as they did the JFK case.

As per the palm print, this was dealt with pretty well by Henry Hurt in Reasonable Doubt.   Drain's testimony against Day is pretty compelling. (pp. 106-09)

Because of this, PBS and Gus Russo tried to revive this print evidence in 1993.  With Rusty Livingstone.  Pat Speer did a nice job showing how this was, to put it mildly, not what it seemed to be.  Scroll down at this link for Speer's state of the art work on this element. God the late Mike Sullivan, the producer of that Frontline show, "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald?" was a real ringer.

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter4c%3Athefingerprintsofmyth

The bottom line is this: LaTona did not find anything, and he did use highlighting and a photographer. And PBS even did a number on that. LaTona was  the best there was. He wrote the booklet that almost every police department in the country used as a guide. Bob Tanenbaum told me that you felt lucky to get LaTona as a witness, since every DA in the country wanted him.

Edited by James DiEugenio
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Full disclosure guys, I don't think Oswald shot Tippit, Though I'm not as convinced about that as I am about Kennedy. And certainly not convinced enough to say so for sure. For instance there could be M,M,O if Oswald was expecting a get away driver, but quickly realised that Tippit was going to kill/abduct him. 

But for me to be able to fathom it out in my head I want to know where I need to aim the gun to shoot my own holes in the theory, (if's that's an acceptable analogy, given the subject matter...).

Thank you very much for the information provided, and the links and book suggestions. I'll get stuck into that. 

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16 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

the elusive palm print

Hey there Tommy...  Oswald wasn't on the 6th floor shooting either... but there are enough threads here alone to fill up years of reading...

Here are some of the slides I had referred to 

 

 

CAPA_51.png

 

CAPA_52.png

 

 

CAPA_50.png

CAPA_49.png

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That's fantastic David, thank you. I've just been reading the Pat Speer essay James linked, and that ties in nicely. That link you posted is next up, (just need to find the good whisky and pack the kids off somewhere quiet).

It really reads like one of those situations when you start to question whether the continued escalation in incompetence is due to people being bad at their job, or something more deliberate. 

When I was younger, I would have questioned how such bare faced untruths could sit so easily with not only the public, but respected journalists. I'm from the UK but am well aware of Frontline, and had always thought it to be up there with Spotlight and Woodward & Bernstein as American guardians of good faith reporting. Like an American equivalent of the BBC's Panorama. Rather than being surprised, I'm just a little bit saddened by it.

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32 minutes ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

That's fantastic David, thank you. I've just been reading the Pat Speer essay James linked, and that ties in nicely. That link you posted is next up, (just need to find the good whisky and pack the kids off somewhere quiet).

It really reads like one of those situations when you start to question whether the continued escalation in incompetence is due to people being bad at their job, or something more deliberate. 

When I was younger, I would have questioned how such bare faced untruths could sit so easily with not only the public, but respected journalists. I'm from the UK but am well aware of Frontline, and had always thought it to be up there with Spotlight and Woodward & Bernstein as American guardians of good faith reporting. Like an American equivalent of the BBC's Panorama. Rather than being surprised, I'm just a little bit saddened by it.

Nice to see another Brit here. Some of the more shocking revelations for me as I’ve researched the case have been about the media stifling discussions on this manner as well as their inability to ask the most basic questions. Unfortunately our country isn’t much better.

Hope you’re enjoying the forum. I’m fairly new and the wealth of knowledge the posters have here is incredible. Best place to be if you want to learn more about the case.

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Can't you just hear the surprise in Belin's voice when he says, "You removed the wood, and then underneath the wood is where you found the print?"

Just to keep this orderly, the alleged palm print was on the trigger guard and the alleged fingerprint was under the wood on the barrel, is that correct?

 

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1 minute ago, Kishan Dandiker said:

Nice to see another Brit here. Some of the more shocking revelations for me as I’ve researched the case have been about the media stifling discussions on this manner as well as their inability to ask the most basic questions. Unfortunately our country isn’t much better.

Hope you’re enjoying the forum. I’m fairly new and the wealth of knowledge the posters have here is incredible. Best place to be if you want to learn more about the case.

Thanks Kishan, I agree... these guys are a bit good...
Yeah, the partisan divides in our media usually lies in the press rather than the Broadcast media. It often makes me smile when the BBC do a news piece on a political issue... lets say a controversial national referendum... and both sides of the divide complain about how biased the reporting was against them.

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