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Tippit Motive and Rifle Chain of Evidence, looking for some guidance.


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2 minutes ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

Wait... the description that went out over the radio was for KENNEDY'S shooter?

Damn, I've had it wrong for ages. I thought he was arrested based on a description given by the eye witnesses at Tippit's shooting??? 

Then... who gave that description to the police? 

I believe it was Brennan to Insp Sawyer.... as I remember it.... but after reading this thread it was probably the other way around...

Sawyer was, IMO, one of the bad cops....   read his testimony as to what he did between 12:30 and 12:35... Amazing

As to the 2nd important call... Julia Postal:

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I told Johnny this, don't tell him, because he is an excitable person, and just have him, you know, go with you and examine the exits and check real good, so, he came back and said he hadn't seen anything although, he had heard a seat pop up like somebody getting out, but there was nobody around that area, so, I told Johnny about the fact that the President had been assassinated. "I don't know if this is the man they want," I said, "in there, but he is running from them for some reason," and I said "I am going to call the police, and you and Butch go get on each of the exit doors and stay there."
So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it was their man, and I said, "Well, I didn't know," and he said, "Well, it fits the description," and I have not---I said I hadn't heard the description. All I know is, "This man is running from them for some reason." And he wanted to know why, and told him because everytime the sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know----well, if he fits the description is what he says. I said, "Let me tell you what he looks like and you take it from there." And explained that he had on this brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "Thank you," and I called the operator and asked him to look through the little hole and see if he could see anything and told him I had called the police, and what was happening, and he wanted to know if I wanted him to cut the picture off, and I says, "No, let's wait until they get here." So, seemed like I hung up the intercom phone when here all of a sudden, police cars, policemen, plainclothesmen, I never saw so many people in my life. And they raced in, and the next thing I knew, they were carrying----well, that is when I first heard Officer Tippit had been shot because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said, "I think we have got our man on both accounts." "What two accounts?" And said, "Well, Officer Tippit's," shocked me, because Officer Tippit used to work part time for us years ago. I didn't know him personally.
Mr. BALL. You mean he guarded the theatre?
Mrs. POSTAL. On Friday nights and Saturdays
, canvass the theatre, you know, and that----then they were bringing Oswald out the door over there and ----

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

Then... who gave that description to the police? 

Someone in military intelligence.

Potentially James W. Powell of the 4th Army's 112th Military Intelligence Group.

The Director of the U.S. Strike Command Joint Test and Evaluation Task Force General William Bradford Rosson may have been the man who transmitted the identification of Oswald over continuity of government communication networks run by 488th Military Intelligence Detachment commander Col. John “Jack” Alston Crichton, who ran the Dallas Civil Defense, Office Of Emergency Planning communications.

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19 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

I believe it was Brennan to Insp Sawyer.... as I remember it.... but after reading this thread it was probably the other way around...

Sawyer was, IMO, one of the bad cops....   read his testimony as to what he did between 12:30 and 12:35... Amazing

As to the 2nd important call... Julia Postal:

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I told Johnny this, don't tell him, because he is an excitable person, and just have him, you know, go with you and examine the exits and check real good, so, he came back and said he hadn't seen anything although, he had heard a seat pop up like somebody getting out, but there was nobody around that area, so, I told Johnny about the fact that the President had been assassinated. "I don't know if this is the man they want," I said, "in there, but he is running from them for some reason," and I said "I am going to call the police, and you and Butch go get on each of the exit doors and stay there."
So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it was their man, and I said, "Well, I didn't know," and he said, "Well, it fits the description," and I have not---I said I hadn't heard the description. All I know is, "This man is running from them for some reason." And he wanted to know why, and told him because everytime the sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know----well, if he fits the description is what he says. I said, "Let me tell you what he looks like and you take it from there." And explained that he had on this brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "Thank you," and I called the operator and asked him to look through the little hole and see if he could see anything and told him I had called the police, and what was happening, and he wanted to know if I wanted him to cut the picture off, and I says, "No, let's wait until they get here." So, seemed like I hung up the intercom phone when here all of a sudden, police cars, policemen, plainclothesmen, I never saw so many people in my life. And they raced in, and the next thing I knew, they were carrying----well, that is when I first heard Officer Tippit had been shot because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said, "I think we have got our man on both accounts." "What two accounts?" And said, "Well, Officer Tippit's," shocked me, because Officer Tippit used to work part time for us years ago. I didn't know him personally.
Mr. BALL. You mean he guarded the theatre?
Mrs. POSTAL. On Friday nights and Saturdays
, canvass the theatre, you know, and that----then they were bringing Oswald out the door over there and ----

 

 

 

 

I'm assuming that Mrs Postal was the name of the lady who worked as cashier at the movie theatre...

I thought she never saw Oswald enter? I thought Johnny Brewer told her that he had seen the "suspicious looking" man sneak in without paying while she was out in the street with the rest of Dallas trying to find out what was happening, and he told her to call the cops? Or is that me confusing the facts with the movie.

You see it had always struck me as odd that someone who (as far as I had thought) had never even seen the suspect was able to give a good enough description to warrant the response it got. 

In fact this line of enquiry was going to be my next post after I'd learned more about the Tippit shooting, believing that it was the description of THAT incident that had led to Oswald's arrest.

Thank you again David, I can't believe I had that wrong for so long.

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11 minutes ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

Thank you again David, I can't believe I had that wrong for so long

My pleasure... and as the story goes

When they confronted Postal and asked about this man and whether he paid, she just started crying... every time...
Butch Burroughs working with Julia but inside also claimed he served Oswald at the snack stand between 1 and 1:15...

And a Jack Davis describes how Oswald moved from seat to seat in the theater....

25419473_JuliaPostalinherboothatthetexastheater-smaller.jpg.164d4211d83fbaf3ab416d05346d2639.jpg

 

Thanks to the great work of John Armstrong yet again....  http://harveyandlee.net/November/November_22.htm   
While I don't agree with 100% offered... this write-up is very detailed and addresses most all the activities including the strange behavior of WESTBROOK, CROY, BREWER and many others...   Whether you agree with the H&L premise or not, this article is surely a must read to get a handle of the breadth of activity designed to GET OSWALD that day.

Enjoy....  (in fact, Armstrong and Malcolm Blunt would visit the National Archives daily for weeks making copies in the early and mid 90's.
Thanks to the great work of Bart Kemp, we are now starting to see the 10,000 or so docs Malcolm copied.

DJ

Texas%20Theater%20Int.jpg

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2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

My pleasure... and as the story goes

When they confronted Postal and asked about this man and whether he paid, she just started crying... every time...
Butch Burroughs working with Julia but inside also claimed he served Oswald at the snack stand between 1 and 1:15...

And a Jack Davis describes how Oswald moved from seat to seat in the theater....

25419473_JuliaPostalinherboothatthetexastheater-smaller.jpg.164d4211d83fbaf3ab416d05346d2639.jpg

 

Thanks to the great work of John Armstrong yet again....  http://harveyandlee.net/November/November_22.htm   
While I don't agree with 100% offered... this write-up is very detailed and addresses most all the activities including the strange behavior of WESTBROOK, CROY, BREWER and many others...   Whether you agree with the H&L premise or not, this article is surely a must read to get a handle of the breadth of activity designed to GET OSWALD that day.

Enjoy....  (in fact, Armstrong and Malcolm Blunt would visit the National Archives daily for weeks making copies in the early and mid 90's.
Thanks to the great work of Bart Kemp, we are now starting to see the 10,000 or so docs Malcolm copied.

DJ

Texas%20Theater%20Int.jpg

I've visited that website a number of times and need to give it some more attention as I usually end up a little bit confused over why such a project would exist in the first place, (but if even 1% of the MK Ultra stuff was real, nothing the US Gov was doing round that time would surprise me...) and if I can find a quick capsule explanation I'll give it a more in depth probe. It's hard to just drop in on a page without having the full history and context of the theory, so I will make time to sit down with a pad and pen and give it the attention that the work that has clearly gone into it deserves.

That's actually a really good map.

Do we know if Brewer's store is the one attached to the movie theatre or further to the right? (East)

He was very helpful, wasn't he...

 

 

Edited by Tommy Tomlinson
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It was Liebeler who said that we know Oswald could have done that feat since he did.

No one knows where that description came from.  If you look at the Brennan thread, it does not seem possible for Brennan to have given it at 12:44.  The FBI eventually rejected Brennan as the source. David's supposition about Sawyer might be the case.

 

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30 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

It was Liebeler who said that we know Oswald could have done that feat since he did.

No one knows where that description came from.  If you look at the Brennan thread, it does not seem possible for Brennan to have given it at 12:44.  The FBI eventually rejected Brennan as the source. David's supposition about Sawyer might be the case.

 

It's odd that the WC never managed (did they even try) to establish where the description came from that just happened to (partially anyway) match Oswald. I'm assuming that his name was never mentioned as a suspect in any official capacity in the hour or so prior to his arrest, of course? But this ethereal description leads to a tenuous cross reference, and that lands them slap-bang on their assassin??? 

Did anyone ever follow up on what, if any, other fields of enquiry were being chased up during that part of the 22nd? Or was DPD just sitting waiting for someone to phone in a report of a 165 lb white man in his 30's with a rifle, so they could spring into action? And why so much detail on the rifle but so little on the man? They had a fair idea of the gauge of the weapon, but not this guy's hair colour? Like anyone was going to see someone walking round the centre of Dallas with a rifle and NOT report it that day. It's crazy!

And it does seem like an awful lot of police officers to turn up to check the report of a man "mostly" matching the description, (sans rifle) when you would have thought that at THAT time, on THAT day, you know... the day the President AND a cop were shot... the DPD would have been fairly busy?  Surely there was some intellectual level of scepticism somewhere within the Warren Commission?

Edited by Tommy Tomlinson
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Tommy:

There was a lead at The  Abundant Life Temple in the first hour.  To my knowledge, that turned up dry.

There were others picked up that day.  All let go for one reason or another.

In my opinion, you are correct.  There were something like six cruiser cars at the Texas Theater.  Because of what exactly?   And two of the most suspicious cops were there, Hill and Westbrook.

As Sylvia Meagher wrote 53 years ago, the Tippit case was dealt with by the WC with a careless back of the hand treatment. Its like about 21 pages.  And, as she also said, Tippit remained a cipher and the circumstances surrounding his death were incredibly murky.  For example, its kind of unbelievable, but Carl Mather's name is not in the index to the WR. If you know anything about this case, that in itself is enough to impugn whatever credibility anyone wants to give the WR.  A long time ago, I had to inform John Armstrong about what Collins Radio was doing in Vietnam and with the Cuban exiles.  But recall,  DeMohrenschildt had taken Marina Oswald to Admiral Bruton's estate very early in the relationship. 

 The question was: what was Tippit doing in Oak Cliff when seemingly everyone in the DPD was headed to Dealey Plaza? There was no order for him to do so on the transcript and no officer recalled such an order. Like the print, it became a problem for the DPD.  Therefore, it suddenly appeared on the SECOND transcript. As Meagher said, why would that order go out at 12:45 when all bedlam had been set loose in Dealey Plaza?    The order allegedly went to two men, Tippit and R. C. Nelson.  Neither man acknowledged the order.  And Nelson did not go to Oak Cliff.  His next message was from Dealey Plaza. (Henry Hurt, Reasonable Doubt, pp. 161-63) And again, neither Nelson, nor the dispatcher Murray Jackson, are mentioned in the WR.

But as Joe McBride points out in his valuable book on the Tippit case, there already was an officer in Oak Cliff. His name was William Mentzel. (McBride, p. 428)  And guess what? His name is not in the WR. In fact, Mentzel's district was Oak Cliff. So they had to know he was there. 

Was Tippit looking for Oswald?  The evidence would seem to indicate such was the case, except you will not find it in the WR. Tippit looking over the viaduct which connects with Dealey Plaza (McBride p. 441-42). Tippit frantically pulling over the car and looking in the back seat. (Ibid, p. 448) And finally going into the record shop for the phone call. (ibid pp 450-53) And in fact, this is what Tippit's father told McBride: Tippit was looking for Oswald. (ibid, p. 427)

 

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18 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Tommy:

There was a lead at The  Abundant Life Temple in the first hour.  To my knowledge, that turned up dry.

There were others picked up that day.  All let go for one reason or another.

In my opinion, you are correct.  There were something like six cruiser cars at the Texas Theater.  Because of what exactly?   And two of the most suspicious cops were there, Hill and Westbrook.

As Sylvia Meagher wrote 53 years ago, the Tippit case was dealt with by the WC with a careless back of the hand treatment. Its like about 21 pages.  And, as she also said, Tippit remained a cipher and the circumstances surrounding his death were incredibly murky.  For example, its kind of unbelievable, but Carl Mather's name is not in the index to the WR. If you know anything about this case, that in itself is enough to impugn whatever credibility anyone wants to give the WR.  A long time ago, I had to inform John Armstrong about what Collins Radio was doing in Vietnam and with the Cuban exiles.  But recall,  DeMohrenschildt had taken Marina Oswald to Admiral Bruton's estate very early in the relationship. 

 The question was: what was Tippit doing in Oak Cliff when seemingly everyone in the DPD was headed to Dealey Plaza? There was no order for him to do so on the transcript and no officer recalled such an order. Like the print, it became a problem for the DPD.  Therefore, it suddenly appeared on the SECOND transcript. As Meagher said, why would that order go out at 12:45 when all bedlam had been set loose in Dealey Plaza?    The order allegedly went to two men, Tippit and R. C. Nelson.  Neither man acknowledged the order.  And Nelson did not go to Oak Cliff.  His next message was from Dealey Plaza. (Henry Hurt, Reasonable Doubt, pp. 161-63) And again, neither Nelson, nor the dispatcher Murray Jackson, are mentioned in the WR.

But as Joe McBride points out in his valuable book on the Tippit case, there already was an officer in Oak Cliff. His name was William Mentzel. (McBride, p. 428)  And guess what? His name is not in the WR. In fact, Mentzel's district was Oak Cliff. So they had to know he was there. 

Was Tippit looking for Oswald?  The evidence would seem to indicate such was the case, except you will not find it in the WR. Tippit looking over the viaduct which connects with Dealey Plaza (McBride p. 441-42). Tippit frantically pulling over the car and looking in the back seat. (Ibid, p. 448) And finally going into the record shop for the phone call. (ibid pp 450-53) And in fact, this is what Tippit's father told McBride: Tippit was looking for Oswald. (ibid, p. 427)

 

Thanks James, it amazes me how you guys do it. I'm pretty good at holding information in my head, but the way you guys are able to not only remember the details, but know which book to look for to find the reference to be able to give page numbers just staggers me. 

I know a lot of people are adamant that Oswald did not shoot Tippit. In my mind there is a scenario where Tippit was indeed looking for Oswald, and Oswald was expecting either a message or an escape route and the drive by horn-sounding was the signal to get ready for that contact. Perhaps Tippit was sent to act that role, and either kill Oswald or take him to somewhere where he would be killed and staged as a suicide. Oswald was an experienced CIA operative (IMHO) who had spent time in Russia, and would have dealt with KGB and Russian Military Intelligence operatives a lot, where I imagine that he developed pretty good instincts for his own self preservation, and perhaps he figured out that getting in the car with Tippit was not going to end well... etc...

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50 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

There was a lead at The  Abundant Life Temple in the first hour.  To my knowledge, that turned up dry.

Hang on a mo' Jim....   From Garrison...   Abundant Life Church is associated with CRISMAN... of Maury Island fame  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maury_Island_incident

The Library turned up dry.... but I don't think much was "investigated" at that church....

115286780_GarrisonaboutBeckhamandCrisman-AbundantLifeChurch.thumb.jpg.7c38d777d8f258599e6641e6b6e45c94.jpg

 

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That is probably correct Dave.  Not much of an inquiry.

Tommy, if you read McBride on the ballistics evidence, or Jim Garrison, that evidence is unconvincing. (Garrison, On the Trail of the Assassins, pp 198-201; McBride pp. 252-59)

But for me the capper is this: There is no evidence that Oswald ever picked up that handgun.  And beyond that, there is no evidence that the FBI ever visited Railway Express, the place where it had been allegedly delivered to. (John Armstrong, Harvey and Lee, pp. 481-84).

And let us never forget what happened to the handgun reportedly taken from Oswald.  This is from my article, "The Tippit Case in the New Millenium:" The reader should remember this key fact:Westbrook was not involved in criminal investigations, he was chief of the personnel office.

"When Hill arrived at the station, he placed the gun in Westbrook’s office while he wrote a report. This was so odd that Westbrook himself admitted to the Commission that the gun should not have been there. (WC 7, p. 118) Concerning this point, Hill testified that he had tried to turn over the gun to Lt. T. L. Baker, but for some reason Baker did not accept it at that time. (WC 7, p. 51) It would have been nice if the Commission had asked Baker about the matter and why he did not accept the weapon, but when Baker did testify, he was only asked eight questions, none about this episode. (WC 4, p. 248)"

 

Edited by James DiEugenio
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8 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

In my mind there is a scenario where Tippit was indeed looking for Oswald, and Oswald was expecting either a message or an escape route and the drive by horn-sounding was the signal to get ready for that contact.

Tommy,

In my personal opinion, the horn tipping was not a signal to Oswald. Have you ever pulled up to a stop light and the light in front of you turns green and the guy in front of you doesn't pull out right away because he is distracted or daydreaming or something, and you tap your horn a couple of times to get him to pull out? That's what I think it was.

Oswald's landlady said that the last time she saw Oswald, he was standing at the bus stop. He wasn't getting into a police car. Maybe the cop car pulled around the corner and stopped and waited until Oswald came out of the house, but Zangs was a pretty busy road.

What's more interesting to me are the actions of Patrolman, Ray Hawkins.

Ray Hawkins and T.A. Hutson both participated in the apprehension of Lee Oswald.

Ray Hawkins call sign was 211

T.A. Hutson call sign was 284

 

J.D. Tippit is shot.

Multiple units respond.

A search of the houses in the vicinity is undertaken.

The search of the houses proves fruitless.

A suspect is spotted at the Library.

Multiple units respond.

 

Sometime between the search of the houses and the sighting of a suspect at the Library, Hawkins and Hutson make a stop at a Mobile Gas Station at 10th and Beckley to make a phone call, supposedly in response from a request from Dispatch to call in.

I do not find any reference to this phone call in the Dispatch tapes.

 

Is it odd that Tippit and Hawkins are making phone calls on a landline telephone right around this same time period?

And what was Hutson doing that he burned out the clutch on his motorcycle? Either the motorcycles in the DPD were poorly maintained, or Hutson was doing some pretty wild riding.

 

(Hawkins) “We had just finished the accident at this time and I was driving an officer, Baggett, and I proceeded to Oak Cliff to the general vicinity of the call after checking out with the dispatcher, stating that we were proceeding in that direction.”

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hawkins.htm

 

From the Dispatch tapes - Between 1:16 and 1:19 PM:

DIS 211:

211.

DIS: 211.

211: We're clear, Industrial and Stemmons. We'll go out there.

DIS: 10-4, 211

 

We arrived in Oak Cliff and there were several squads in the general vicinity of where the shooting had occurred---different stories had come out that the person was--the suspect had been seen in the immediate vicinity.
Mr. BALL. Did you go to 10th and Patton?
Mr. HAWKINS. We drove by 10th and Patton--we didn't stop at the location.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?
Mr. HAWKINS. We circled the vicinity around Jefferson and Marsalis
and in that area, talking to several people on the street, asking if they had seen anyone running up the alley or running down the street, and then they received a call, or I believe Officer Walker put out a call that he had just seen a white man running to the Oak Cliff Library, at which time we proceeded to this location. Officer Hutson had gotten into the car with us when we arrived in Oak Cliff, and there were three of us in the squad car--Officer Baggett, Officer Hutson, and myself.
Mr. BALL Hutson is also a patrolman?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. A uniformed patrolman?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; he is a three-wheel officer.

(Hutson) http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hutson.htm

Mr. HUTSON. As I was being released, (From Elm and Houston) I heard the radio dispatcher come on the radio and give a Signal 19, and that a shooting involving a police officer in the 500 block of East Jefferson...

Mr. BELIN. When you heard this news about this shooting in Oak Cliff----by the way, where was your regular station ordinarily?
Mr. HUTSON. I worked west of Vernon on Jefferson.
Mr. BELIN. Is that Oak Cliff?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes; that is West Jefferson Boulevard.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you heard about the shooting?
Mr. HUTSON. I got on my motorcycle and I proceeded down through the triple underpass and up onto R. L. Thornton Freeway to Oak Cliff.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?
Mr. HUTSON. I exited off Jefferson and went to the 400 block of East Jefferson Boulevard and began a search of the two-story house behind 10th Street where the officer had been shot.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HUTSON. And after we searched this area, I got in the squad car with Officer Ray Hawkins, who was driving, and Officer Baggett was riding in the back seat.
Mr. BELIN. Why did you get inside the squad car?
Mr. HUTSON.
The clutch on my motorcycle was burned out and I couldn't get any speed and I just barely made it over there, and I didn't know whether I would be able to start and go or not.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

 

Mr. HUTSON. We proceeded west on 10th Street to Beckley, and we pulled into the Mobil gas station at Beckley and 10th Street.
Mr. BELIN. That is a Mobil gas station?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HUTSON. And Officer Ray Hawkins and Officer Baggett went inside of the Mobil gas station. And I am not positive, but I think they used the telephone to call in.
I am not positive, but I believe they gave us a call for us to call. I mean their number to call in.
At the time they were in the service station, I heard the dispatcher give a call that the suspect was just seen running across the lawn at the Oak Cliff Branch Library at Marsalis and Jefferson.
I reached over and blew the siren on the squad car to attract the officers' attention, Officers Baggett and Hawkins, and they came running out of the service station and jumped in the car, and I told them to report to, I can't remember, Marsalis and Jefferson, the suspect was seen running across the lawn at the library.

From the Dispatch tapes - 1:34 PM

22: They've got him holed up, it looks like, in this building over here at the corner.

22: (?) ...were you be?

85: 85, library.

DIS: 10-4.

211: 211 out at that location.

DIS: 10-4.

 

Hawkins is circling the area around Jefferson and Marsalis (where the Library is). (which is about six blocks east of where Tippit has been shot)

He heads west and picks up Hutson in the neighborhood of 10th and Patton. They continue west on 10th till they get to Beckley and 10th, where they make a phone call at a Mobil Gas Station. While they're in there on a phone call, Dispatch announces that a suspect has been seen at the Library, so they head back east again.

 

  1. Why didn't Hawkins mention this phone call when he testified before the Warren Commission on April 3, 1964? http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hawkins.htm

     

  2. Why did he and Baggett fail to mention this phone call in their after-action reports in the DPD JFK Archives? The first six lines of E.R. Baggett's and Ray Hawkins' Reports on the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald in the DPD Archives read word for word. Neither mention the stop at the Mobil Gas Station.
    Baggett: Box 1, Folder# 4, Item# 13
    http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm


    Hawkins: Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 18
    http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

     

  3. Why didn't Hawkins call in to Dispatch that he was “out of service”?

  4. Why did it take both Hawkins and Baggett to make this phone call? E.R. Baggett is a patrolman temporarily assigned to the DPD Special Service Bureau.
    http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

     

  5. Why did neither Hutson or Hawkins call in to headquarters notifying them that Hutson is now with Hawkins?

  6. If Hawkins is on the phone to headquarters, why does Hutson need to turn on the siren alerting Hawkins and Baggett that the suspect has been seen at the Library? Who are Hawkins and Baggett talking to?

  7. Why is there no record in the Dispatch tapes of this call to Hawkins to call in to Headquarters?

  8. Why didn't Hutson call in to Dispatch that his motorcycle was disabled and needed a tow truck?

  9. Why hasn't Hawkins' telephone call from the Mobil Gas Station received the same attention as Tippit's phone call from the Top Ten Record Store?

 

What do you think of the idea that Tippit's call at the Top Ten Record Store and Hawkins' call at the Mobil Gas Station are related; as in

"I can't find him.", or "He's not here.", meaning Oswald?

 

From the account's I've read, Tippit was behaving erratically, and the stop at Top Ten was a rushed affair.

 

A fellow officer has been shot. There is an armed and dangerous suspect on the loose. Hawkins responds to the Tippit shooting, but doesn't stop at 10th and Patton. He goes to the Library neighborhood at Jefferson and Marsalis and starts circling the neighborhood. He drives back to 10th and Patton, picks up Hutson, and then he and Baggett stop and make a phone call from a Mobil Gas Station at 10th and Beckley, leaving Hutson in the car. When Hutson blows the siren to let them know that a suspect has been seen at the Library, they go rushing back over there.

 

Is it possible that Tippit and Hawkins were calling the same people?

 

When Kenneth Croy testified to the Warren Commission on March 26, 1964, he said,

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/croy.htm

 

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?
Mr. CROY. 1658 Glenfield Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. CROY. I have several.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's have them in order.
Mr. CROY. I am in the real estate business. I have a Mobil service station...”

 

1658 Glenfield is roughly a mile southwest of the Texas Theater

 

posting by an unknown author in the ReopenKennedyCase Forum 1/29/2014

Croy’s home by the way was 1658 Glenfield. This was the same street that J. D. Tippit lived on until 1961. Glenfield was also the same street that Carl Amos Mather used to live on a few blocks from Tippit’s house when they first became friends. For those unfamiliar with Mather he is connected to proceedings because a license plate number was taken down by garage mechanic T. F. White close to the Texas Theater immediately after Oswald’s arrest that was traced back to Carl Amos Mather’s car. The occupant of the car seen by White bore an uncanny resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald and Carl Mather, when interviewed, told of his friendship with J. D. Tippit. Tippit's old house of 1919 Glenfield, even though he and his family no longer lived there in 1963, was still in his possession and the property was rented out As far as I'm aware it was never investigated who it was rented out to. Croy’s house was three blocks from the house Tippit owned. During his Warren Commission testimony it is interesting to note that Croy was not asked if he knew Officer Tippit”.

 

T.A. Hutson worked Traffic Division Traffic Control Second Platoon 10:00 AM to 6:00 PM

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

 

Ray Hawkins worked Traffic Division Accident Prevention Bureau 7:00 AM to 3:00 PM

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

.Steve Thomas

 

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31 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Tommy,

In my personal opinion, the horn tipping was not a signal to Oswald. Have you ever pulled up to a stop light and the light in front of you turns green and the guy in front of you doesn't pull out right away because he is distracted or daydreaming or something, and you tap your horn a couple of times to get him to pull out? That's what I think it was.

Oswald's landlady said that the last time she saw Oswald, he was standing at the bus stop. He wasn't getting into a police car. Maybe the cop car pulled around the corner and stopped and waited until Oswald came out of the house, but Zangs was a pretty busy road.

What's more interesting to me are the actions of Patrolman, Ray Hawkins.

Ray Hawkins and T.A. Hutson both participated in the apprehension of Lee Oswald.

Ray Hawkins call sign was 211

T.A. Hutson call sign was 284

 

J.D. Tippit is shot.

Multiple units respond.

A search of the houses in the vicinity is undertaken.

The search of the houses proves fruitless.

A suspect is spotted at the Library.

Multiple units respond.

 

Sometime between the search of the houses and the sighting of a suspect at the Library, Hawkins and Hutson make a stop at a Mobile Gas Station at 10th and Beckley to make a phone call, supposedly in response from a request from Dispatch to call in.

I do not find any reference to this phone call in the Dispatch tapes.

 

Is it odd that Tippit and Hawkins are making phone calls on a landline telephone right around this same time period?

And what was Hutson doing that he burned out the clutch on his motorcycle? Either the motorcycles in the DPD were poorly maintained, or Hutson was doing some pretty wild riding.

 

(Hawkins) “We had just finished the accident at this time and I was driving an officer, Baggett, and I proceeded to Oak Cliff to the general vicinity of the call after checking out with the dispatcher, stating that we were proceeding in that direction.”

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hawkins.htm

 

From the Dispatch tapes - Between 1:16 and 1:19 PM:

DIS 211:

211.

DIS: 211.

211: We're clear, Industrial and Stemmons. We'll go out there.

DIS: 10-4, 211

 

We arrived in Oak Cliff and there were several squads in the general vicinity of where the shooting had occurred---different stories had come out that the person was--the suspect had been seen in the immediate vicinity.
Mr. BALL. Did you go to 10th and Patton?
Mr. HAWKINS. We drove by 10th and Patton--we didn't stop at the location.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?
Mr. HAWKINS. We circled the vicinity around Jefferson and Marsalis
and in that area, talking to several people on the street, asking if they had seen anyone running up the alley or running down the street, and then they received a call, or I believe Officer Walker put out a call that he had just seen a white man running to the Oak Cliff Library, at which time we proceeded to this location. Officer Hutson had gotten into the car with us when we arrived in Oak Cliff, and there were three of us in the squad car--Officer Baggett, Officer Hutson, and myself.
Mr. BALL Hutson is also a patrolman?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. A uniformed patrolman?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; he is a three-wheel officer.

(Hutson) http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hutson.htm

Mr. HUTSON. As I was being released, (From Elm and Houston) I heard the radio dispatcher come on the radio and give a Signal 19, and that a shooting involving a police officer in the 500 block of East Jefferson...

Mr. BELIN. When you heard this news about this shooting in Oak Cliff----by the way, where was your regular station ordinarily?
Mr. HUTSON. I worked west of Vernon on Jefferson.
Mr. BELIN. Is that Oak Cliff?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes; that is West Jefferson Boulevard.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you heard about the shooting?
Mr. HUTSON. I got on my motorcycle and I proceeded down through the triple underpass and up onto R. L. Thornton Freeway to Oak Cliff.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?
Mr. HUTSON. I exited off Jefferson and went to the 400 block of East Jefferson Boulevard and began a search of the two-story house behind 10th Street where the officer had been shot.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HUTSON. And after we searched this area, I got in the squad car with Officer Ray Hawkins, who was driving, and Officer Baggett was riding in the back seat.
Mr. BELIN. Why did you get inside the squad car?
Mr. HUTSON.
The clutch on my motorcycle was burned out and I couldn't get any speed and I just barely made it over there, and I didn't know whether I would be able to start and go or not.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

 

Mr. HUTSON. We proceeded west on 10th Street to Beckley, and we pulled into the Mobil gas station at Beckley and 10th Street.
Mr. BELIN. That is a Mobil gas station?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HUTSON. And Officer Ray Hawkins and Officer Baggett went inside of the Mobil gas station. And I am not positive, but I think they used the telephone to call in.
I am not positive, but I believe they gave us a call for us to call. I mean their number to call in.
At the time they were in the service station, I heard the dispatcher give a call that the suspect was just seen running across the lawn at the Oak Cliff Branch Library at Marsalis and Jefferson.
I reached over and blew the siren on the squad car to attract the officers' attention, Officers Baggett and Hawkins, and they came running out of the service station and jumped in the car, and I told them to report to, I can't remember, Marsalis and Jefferson, the suspect was seen running across the lawn at the library.

From the Dispatch tapes - 1:34 PM

22: They've got him holed up, it looks like, in this building over here at the corner.

22: (?) ...were you be?

85: 85, library.

DIS: 10-4.

211: 211 out at that location.

DIS: 10-4.

 

Hawkins is circling the area around Jefferson and Marsalis (where the Library is). (which is about six blocks east of where Tippit has been shot)

He heads west and picks up Hutson in the neighborhood of 10th and Patton. They continue west on 10th till they get to Beckley and 10th, where they make a phone call at a Mobil Gas Station. While they're in there on a phone call, Dispatch announces that a suspect has been seen at the Library, so they head back east again.

 

  1. Why didn't Hawkins mention this phone call when he testified before the Warren Commission on April 3, 1964? http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hawkins.htm

     

  2. Why did he and Baggett fail to mention this phone call in their after-action reports in the DPD JFK Archives? The first six lines of E.R. Baggett's and Ray Hawkins' Reports on the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald in the DPD Archives read word for word. Neither mention the stop at the Mobil Gas Station.
    Baggett: Box 1, Folder# 4, Item# 13
    http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm


    Hawkins: Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 18
    http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

     

  3. Why didn't Hawkins call in to Dispatch that he was “out of service”?

  4. Why did it take both Hawkins and Baggett to make this phone call? E.R. Baggett is a patrolman temporarily assigned to the DPD Special Service Bureau.
    http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

     

  5. Why did neither Hutson or Hawkins call in to headquarters notifying them that Hutson is now with Hawkins?

  6. If Hawkins is on the phone to headquarters, why does Hutson need to turn on the siren alerting Hawkins and Baggett that the suspect has been seen at the Library? Who are Hawkins and Baggett talking to?

  7. Why is there no record in the Dispatch tapes of this call to Hawkins to call in to Headquarters?

  8. Why didn't Hutson call in to Dispatch that his motorcycle was disabled and needed a tow truck?

  9. Why hasn't Hawkins' telephone call from the Mobil Gas Station received the same attention as Tippit's phone call from the Top Ten Record Store?

 

What do you think of the idea that Tippit's call at the Top Ten Record Store and Hawkins' call at the Mobil Gas Station are related; as in

"I can't find him.", or "He's not here.", meaning Oswald?

 

From the account's I've read, Tippit was behaving erratically, and the stop at Top Ten was a rushed affair.

 

A fellow officer has been shot. There is an armed and dangerous suspect on the loose. Hawkins responds to the Tippit shooting, but doesn't stop at 10th and Patton. He goes to the Library neighborhood at Jefferson and Marsalis and starts circling the neighborhood. He drives back to 10th and Patton, picks up Hutson, and then he and Baggett stop and make a phone call from a Mobil Gas Station at 10th and Beckley, leaving Hutson in the car. When Hutson blows the siren to let them know that a suspect has been seen at the Library, they go rushing back over there.

 

Is it possible that Tippit and Hawkins were calling the same people?

 

When Kenneth Croy testified to the Warren Commission on March 26, 1964, he said,

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/croy.htm

 

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?
Mr. CROY. 1658 Glenfield Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. CROY. I have several.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's have them in order.
Mr. CROY. I am in the real estate business. I have a Mobil service station...”

 

1658 Glenfield is roughly a mile southwest of the Texas Theater

 

posting by an unknown author in the ReopenKennedyCase Forum 1/29/2014

Croy’s home by the way was 1658 Glenfield. This was the same street that J. D. Tippit lived on until 1961. Glenfield was also the same street that Carl Amos Mather used to live on a few blocks from Tippit’s house when they first became friends. For those unfamiliar with Mather he is connected to proceedings because a license plate number was taken down by garage mechanic T. F. White close to the Texas Theater immediately after Oswald’s arrest that was traced back to Carl Amos Mather’s car. The occupant of the car seen by White bore an uncanny resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald and Carl Mather, when interviewed, told of his friendship with J. D. Tippit. Tippit's old house of 1919 Glenfield, even though he and his family no longer lived there in 1963, was still in his possession and the property was rented out As far as I'm aware it was never investigated who it was rented out to. Croy’s house was three blocks from the house Tippit owned. During his Warren Commission testimony it is interesting to note that Croy was not asked if he knew Officer Tippit”.

 

T.A. Hutson worked Traffic Division Traffic Control Second Platoon 10:00 AM to 6:00 PM

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

 

Ray Hawkins worked Traffic Division Accident Prevention Bureau 7:00 AM to 3:00 PM

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

.Steve Thomas

 

Steve, that's brilliant. Thank you very much. 

Do we know; was the procedure of putting a call out over the radio for an officer to phone in, rather than communicate over the open dispatch system, a common thing? In other words, is it something they would normally recount in an investigative report, or might skip over as a typical event in the day to day routine/

I need to get me a map of that whole area so I can get my head round the distances and an idea of where things were happening in relation to each other.

The more I learn about this part of the whole picture, the more I begin to see Tippit as a common vector in a lot of, seemingly, otherwise unconnected threads. Of course that may be the simple "Seeing patterns where none exist" principle, but I don't think so.

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