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Tippit Motive and Rifle Chain of Evidence, looking for some guidance.


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Tommy...

3 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

Just so I'm not falling behind in this line of enquiry...

Was that in Oswald's pocket at the time of his arrest or the pocket of the discarded jacket where they reckon this useful clue was found?

Actually said to be in his newly changed into shirt pocket, and after 3 searches starting with him at the theater and in the car when they found a wallet....  Tommy... this is a new shirt, not the work shirt with button down collar.  
 

So in an interrogation room waiting for the 215 lineup I believe... 5 bullets in the Pants pocket, bus transfer in the shirt pocket.

The jacket was a prop.... added defense of the escape route....

FWIW
 

2145434580_5bulletsfromOswaldcompartedtobulletsinammobelt.jpg.501205107821a313f1d4e49286fc6189.jpg

The bus transfer is easy enough to find... but has a host of evidentiary problems...

59b2c8077dbac_Oswaldshirtwaschanged-allIDofthisshirtpriortocapturewasprovidedbyDPD.thumb.jpg.dcf006a821480e36c333d78f7f814831.jpg

Edited by David Josephs
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How many weeks was Oswald at the address?

He needed to remind himself of it?

If Steve is correct in his hypothesis that it did not exist, then I think Weston's suspicions about the TSBD may be correct e.g. Truly and Shelly.

Is that not how the police got onto Oswald in the first place?

 

PS Hill said they did a fast frisk of Oswald at the theater, no bullets.

Edited by James DiEugenio
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39 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

Do you remember who was supposed to have said this?

Steve Thomas

Fritz wrote it ... last line of note   And Bookout as well as Kelley mention it it their reports...

They are listed as having been found in the bottom drawer as well...  and here is CE151.. pants may be ce157...

img_1133_539_200.jpg

 

59c1974796843_FritznoteaboutOswaldoutfrontwithShelley.thumb.jpg.237d03c6fa2efc3f0162a78f8125856b.jpgfritz2-5.thumb.jpg.471d0e8e0ed51ff95f57e485a271e8d5.jpg
 

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23 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Fritz wrote it ... last line of note   And Bookout as well as Kelley mention it it their reports...

They are listed as having been found in the bottom drawer as well...  and here is CE151.. pants may be ce157...

David,

Thank you, but I was referring to the note supposedly found in his shirt pocket.

The bus transfer was, but no note listing 1026 N. Beckley that I am aware of.

Steve Thomas

Edited by Steve Thomas
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39 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

Thank you, but I was referring to the note supposedly found in his shirt pocket.

The bus transfer was, but no note listing 1026 N. Beckley that I am aware of.

Steve Thomas

Yeah, pretty sure Beckley’s been put to bed....  thanks to u and others...

Dont know if they checked the shirt before he changed it....

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19 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

How many weeks was Oswald at the address?

He needed to remind himself of it?

If Steve is correct in his hypothesis that it did not exist, then I think Weston's suspicions about the TSBD may be correct e.g. Truly and Shelly.

Is that not how the police got onto Oswald in the first place?

 

PS Hill said they did a fast frisk of Oswald at the theater, no bullets.

Let me be sure I understand this...

It was DPD's assertion that Oswald put on a clean shirt, and in the pocket he placed a "note" that simply, (and conveniently,) contained only his address?

And no one has ever seen it since 11/22/63?

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5 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

Let me be sure I understand this...

It was DPD's assertion that Oswald put on a clean shirt, and in the pocket he placed a "note" that simply, (and conveniently,) contained only his address?

And no one has ever seen it since 11/22/63?

Tommy,

No policeman that I am aware of ever made this assertion about a "note".

I once wrote an essay asking the question, "How did the police first learn that Oswald lived at 1026 N. Beckley?"

You can read it here if you'd like:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/2331-how-did-the-police-first-learn-of-1026-n-beckley/

Steve Thomas

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1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Tommy,

No policeman that I am aware of ever made this assertion about a "note".

I once wrote an essay asking the question, "How did the police first learn that Oswald lived at 1026 N. Beckley?"

You can read it here if you'd like:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/2331-how-did-the-police-first-learn-of-1026-n-beckley/

Steve Thomas

Thank you Steve, I'll get right into that.

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Right, having read through that I need to check that, again, I'm not missing something obvious...

1. DPD found Oswald because of a report from a woman who said he matched a description of the Kennedy shooter given out over public radio, a description she hadn't heard until she phoned the DPD to report his matching the description... and was in no real position to compare as she had barely caught a fleeting glimpse of Oswald on his way in to the theatre. That was enough to send the 7th Cavalry down to the movie theatre to arrest the suspect, who matched the Dealey Plaza description, for the murder of J D Tippit... Not only that, but DPD can't identify the source of the initial description of the suspect when asked about it by the WC/HSCA, promised to look into it... and never did.

2. DPD located Oswald's address before they had been told where he lived, and by way of explanation various confused police officers passed around the idea that someone who they couldn't remember had probably told them, and eventually everyone seemed to believe that it must have come from Oswald's wallet/pocket because how else could they have located his address before they went in to his official residence in Irving where they would have been able to track his address by reverse tracking the phone number. Again when questioned DPD were unable to positively explain how they came by this crucial piece of information, promised to look into it... and never did.

And that's not including the other part of my original question over their handling of the rifle forensics...

I understand that people would say, "It's far more complex than that" but at it's core... is it? Really?

The more I read about DPD in 1963 and the immediate aftermath of the assassination, the more I find it hard to believe that they could have been trusted as part of any greater conspiracy. I believe that there were just enough corrupt and incompetent cops for the whole department to have been played like a drum. And in a bid to cover their own ineptitude and levels of corruption they made what should have been the most intensive and focused police investigation in American history into an object lesson of obfuscation and misinformation.

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On 8/10/2020 at 1:13 PM, Joseph McBride said:

Armstrong proves in exhaustive detail that

Oswald didn't own the rifle or handgun submitted

into what Oswald aptly called the "so-called evidence."

I just came across the interview of Joseph McBride's on the Night Fright radio show from 2017 I believe.

As Jim Di suggested this is where I heard the account of Dallas PD Detective Jim Leavelle comparing JFK's killing to that of a South Side ni##er killin' as far as Leavelle's level of concern for it, relative to his much greater concern for the killing of a fellow Dallas policeman J. D. Tippit.

If this statement attributed to Leavelle is true, it quite obviously depicts him to be a JFK hater imo, and puts him in a much darker and more suspicious light in the whole affair.

I always got a sense of Leavelle that was much darker, racist and JFK hating than the quaint, wise and gentle ole grand daddy image presented in his many later age interviews.

Edited by Joe Bauer
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Enjoying Tommy's thread here.  I too have questions that the experts could clear for me, in relation to the zipper jacket.

Beckley housekeeper Roberts stated that Oswald left the rooming house with jacket.  If I recall correctly she did not i.d. the same colour jacket to the Warren Commission.

If the Tippit killer was seen by witnesses down Patton stuffing said gun in jacket pocket, was any forensics done?  Was this possible in '63?  & did DPD present this jacket during any interrogation?

Also, am I correct in thinking it was dear Marina who testified to Lee owning that item?

On the 50th anniversary of the assassination they had a press photography exhibition on JFK along the Mall in D.C. & in a display case was the purported light grey Eisenhower jacket.

 

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12 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

I just came across the interview of Joseph McBride's on the Night Fright radio show from 2017 I believe.

As Jim Di suggested this is where I heard the account of Dallas PD Detective Jim Leavelle comparing JFK's killing to that of a South Side ni##er killin' as far as Leavelle's level of concern for it, relative to his much greater concern for the killing of a fellow Dallas policeman J. D. Tippit.

If this statement attributed to Leavelle is true, it quite obviously depicts him to be a JFK hater imo, and puts him in a much darker and more suspicious light in the whole affair.

I always got a sense of Leavelle that was much darker, racist and JFK hating than the quaint, wise and gentle ole grand daddy image presented in his many later age interviews.

I just watched one of the Sixth Floor Museum's online video discussions, about the day Oswald was shot.
One of the reporters talked about how he was keen to get into DPD to get footage of Oswald because, "It was the last chance any of us would get to see him alive..." he corrects himself, "I, mean LIVE... as in when he was gone we'd never get another chance an it would all be in stills..." it gets a chuckle... (also turns out that the fixer the network guys used to communicate with the 3rd floor was... Jack Ruby...)
The conversation continues, and just as the moderator moves to another subject Jim Leavelle interrupts and says something along the lines of, "Just cutting back to before... it WAS the last time anyone got to see him walking around alive!" which gets a less enthusiastic chuckle but Jim thinks it's hilarious.

If I'd had any doubts about the character of JL, they were removed in that instant.

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1 hour ago, Pete Mellor said:

If the Tippit killer was seen by witnesses down Patton stuffing said gun in jacket pocket, was any forensics done?  Was this possible in '63?  & did DPD present this jacket during any interrogation?

 

Pete,

You asked an interesting question.

The last anybody saw of Oswald, he was running down the street with the gun in his hand. Nobody saw him put the gun in his jacket pocket.

Callaway’s affidavit:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339021/m1/1/?q=Callaway

Said he saw the gun in the hand of a running man he later identified as Oswald. He did not say he saw Oswald put it in his pocket.

 

Sam Guinyard’s statement to the police:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340305/m1/1/?q=Guinyard:

Said he saw a man running down the street with a gun in his hand. He did not say he saw the man put the gun in his pocket.

 

I got curious to know if the witnesses were shown the actual jacket the day of Tippit's killing.

In their WC testimony, neither Ted Callaway nor Sam Guinyard speak of being taken up to the fourth floor and being shown the actual jacket. Detective Jim Leavelle said they were.

 

Ted Callway’s WC testimony”

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/callaway1.htm

Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothes on in the lineup--did the man have the same clothes?
Mr. CALLAWAY. He had the same trousers and shirt, but he didn't have his jacket on. He had ditched his jacket.
Mr. BALL. What kind--when you talked to the police officers before you saw this man, did you give them a description of the clothing he had on?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell them you saw?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I told them he had some dark trousers and a light tannish gray windbreaker jacket, and I told him that he was fair complexion, dark hair.

Mr. BALL. I have a jacket here Commission's Exhibit No. 162. Does this look anything like the jacket that the man had on that you saw across the street with a gun?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes; it sure does. Yes, that is the same type jacket. Actually, I thought it had a little more tan to it.

 

How would Ted Callaway know Oswald had ditched his jacket unless someone had told him so?

Callaway described the jacket to police, but doesn’t say anything about being taken up to the fourth floor to identify the jacket itself.

 

Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothes on in the lineup--did the man have the same clothes?
Mr. CALLAWAY. He had the same trousers and shirt, but he didn't have his jacket on. He had ditched his jacket.
Mr. BALL. What kind--when you talked to the police officers before you saw this man, did you give them a description of the clothing he had on?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them you saw?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I told them he had some dark trousers and a light tannish gray windbreaker jacket, and I told him that he was fair complexion, dark hair.

 

Sam Guinyard’s WC testimony:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/guinyard1.htm

Guinyard said he saw a brown shirt in Oak Cliff and again down  at the courthouse, (presumably the shirt he was wearing during the lineup), but doesn’t say anything about being shown a jacket.

 

Jim Leavelle’s WC testimony:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/leave_j1.htm

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I--Mr. Graves and I took Helen back home and after we dropped her off we stopped by this carlot, 501 East Jefferson, and talked with the manager or owner of that and found out that he was the one that had seen the man running. He had heard the shots and seen the man running, from the scene of the shooting and the colored porter there also had heard it, and they had gone to the scene and they said, each of them said, that they thought they might be able to identify the man that they saw running; they heard the shots and they ran outside and saw him running down the sidewalk across the street from the lot with the gun in his hand.

Mr. BALL. Did you also show them a jacket?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I took them to the fourth floor and asked them to look at a jacket which--
--
Mr. BALL. I show you Commission Exhibit 162. Does that look anything like the jacket?
Mr. LEAVELLE. It looks like the jacket that I showed them; yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what Callaway said when he saw the jacket?
Mr. LEAVELLE. He said this was definitely the jacket or one exactly like it.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what Guinyard said?
Mr. LEAVELLE. He said it was also the same type jacket.

 

Just as aside, I liked this part of Sam Guinyard's WC testimony:

Mr. GUINYARD. Yes--four men--handcuffed together.
Mr. BALL. What did you say?
Mr. GUINYARD. They was handcuffed together.
Mr. BALL. They was handcuffed?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; all four of them.
Mr. BALL. Were they of different sizes?
Mr. GUINYARD. Well, they was pretty close together--there wasn't much difference in size.
Mr. BALL. In height--they were about the same?
Mr. GUINYARD. About the same.
Mr. BALL. Were they all about the same color?
Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; they wasn't all about the same color.
Mr. BALL. All about the same color?
Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; they wasn't all about the same color.

 

(You said you saw a white guy running down the street. Here's a brown guy and a white guy. Which is the one you saw?)

Steve Thomas

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40 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Pete,

You asked an interesting question.

Steve Thomas

OK Callaway & Guinyard got to see the jacket, but I don't recall Oswald being shown & asked about it in the scrappy notes of the interrogations written by Fritz, Bookhout or Hosty.

Surely someone must have!

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