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Traversing Station C - the "Axle Gap"


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The picture collage below includes the last frame of the Houston St section of the Hughes film.

The orientation of the Queen Mary as it traverses the Houston St north/south kerb line which intersects Station C, is forever fixed by the "Axle Gap".

The distance between the QM and the Elm St south kerb corner must accomodate the two motorcycles plus the spectators that can be seen stepping off the kerb in Dorman frames.

In the diagram below, I have used rolling chassis with wheels to demonstrate the QM's traversing angle while maintaining the "Axle Gap"

I believe the picture below validates Truly's claim that the Limo slowed and almost hit the island in front of the TSBD

 

axle gap wide turn houston elm.png

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4 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

In the diagram below, I have used rolling chassis with wheels to demonstrate the QM's traversing angle while maintaining the "Axle Gap"

I believe the picture below validates Truly's claim that the Limo slowed and almost hit the island in front of the TSBD

And this is why I come here...  

Can you do the same with the limo rear wheel?

1701732341_Hughesrearwheelsoflimo.jpg.ab7293ce4b48178a3c870b0174d5415a.jpg

 

The other side of the turn is betrayed by POSITION A which they claim the limo passed thru but was not on the Zfilm...  what bothers me most though is Truly mentions it as an after thought.... not as an answer to a direct question...  And he's the only one who says this....  Even without prompting you'd think a few others - like Brennan -would mention this.... ?????

I'd also like your opinion on something in the next post....

Great thinking outside the box ....  
DJ

I did an analysis on that motorcycle which disappears and takes the widest of the Elm turns...  He's lost behind the trees for over 80 frames before he emerges in the exact spot of the limo in Position A - I superimposed him onto the WCR image of Position A....

Unless the SS car cuts the corner more sharply, Z133 (whether real or not) but z133 shows the SS followup car right on the tail of the limo and in a straight line back up Elm...

Seems to me the SS car is about where the limo would have taken the wide turn... your thoughts on this are appreciated...

DJ

5a9d8a6e28b27_z001-133-135stopstartanalysis.thumb.jpg.6cf629656f6e07391740e06f92c07934.jpg

 

563780541_1964_FBI_REENACTMENT_PositionAsmaller.thumb.jpg.e39f9ce2c9444693a87ed982e2004f1d.jpg

 

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4 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

I believe the picture below validates Truly's claim that the Limo slowed and almost hit the island in front of the TSBD

Tony, part of the problem with that turn is the Towner Film and of course any photos from that corner...

If you have the video or a gif of the frames it's even more pronounced but hard to post...  So I use frames instead here...

Here's a Towner frame in relation to the curb Truly mentions...

5a469d3e5f345_WeigmanshowsTrulycurbandTownershowsthempassingrightby.jpg.9185c92d159beddc88b94aac3b7919bb.jpg

 

As the limo passes I noticed a very strange event occurring , as the limo pulls away it appears to be moving sideways
The rear tire gets smaller as the distance from Towner increases.... yet the size of the column and background gets BIGGER...

the top image on the left is a sec or so after the image below it... with the column inset from the frame above....  even more examples on the left

Tony.... how dat?

1008958217_Townershowslimogettingsmallerwhilebackgroundgetsbigger.thumb.jpg.96a8a19e86cfeacb23c2a3e4bc201b76.jpg1794964653_TownerSizeanomolie.thumb.jpg.91fd6cad9655b82f3238624d0f70710e.jpg

 

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Has anyone on the forum ever tried the math out on the radius of the limo turn.  My math skills have eroded through non-use and I know there are at least a couple of people on here who could work this out (assuming they haven't already).  I looked up a standard Lincoln Continental spec's and found out the tightest circle it could turn was a diameter of 47.9 feet.  I'm sure the limo would be somewhat similar even though it was stretched.  I don't know if the actual spec's for the Presidential limo would be available.  Combining the lock to lock steering circle and the circumference of the turn onto Elm might be interesting.  The hard part is trying to determine a point of entry/exit for the turn in order to get to position "A".

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Thanks, David.  I will try that.  I knew Chris had went through quite a bit of stuff, but wasn't sure he had done the limo turning radius.  I should have known he did.  Excellent (if I can hang on through his calculations).  As I said my math skills have deteriorated badly and I hate/won't try to get members to rehash things they've covered extensively just for my benefit.  Thanks again.  I'll see if I can start at the beginning of his topic and manage to follow all the way through.

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DJ,

Position A is the key to understanding Elm st. Remarkable effort went into obliterating what happened at the Elm/Houston corner as you are well aware. We are left with scraps. Greer was a professional driver who would have studied the motorcade route. So then you ask what was the effect of pushing your nose into the abutment?

Search terms for collaboration witnesses for Truly's claim include "wide turn". Towner's limo? Well, that film is in my entertainment folder, but it does give you an idea to what they were capable of.

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26 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Search terms for collaboration witnesses for Truly's claim include "wide turn". Towner's limo? Well, that film is in my entertainment folder, but it does give you an idea to what they were capable of.

I think it was Dino at NPIC who said they - Hawkeyeworks Rochester - could do anything and everything that's doable to film...

David Healy wrote a great piece on the machinery of the time... I can only think what tweaks might have been made....

I am 99% sure this is an exerpt from his article... if I mistakenly credited the wrong person... my bad...  but I remember that photo

36 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Position A is the key to understanding Elm st.

I'm really glad you said that Tony....   Position A is one of those things, like the SS describing a shot +/- 4 feet from 5+00, that's in the record, glaring us in the face practically, and negates so much of the evidence offered by the WCR and beyond.

You think it's as simple as "nobody asked" as to why we do not have a single witness saying what Truly did?  

.... and why in the world would they include Position A and that Truly statement in the first place?   

===========

Not like they didn't change testimony before.....

We have proof that Dulles just crossed out what CADIGAN said about the evidence at the FBI lab and rewrote his testimony at that point... why wouldn't they just remove that part from Truly?   (from the John Armstrong collection)

DELETE and rewrite...  y'know, to get the the truth of the matter....

Cadigan_Altered.jpg 

THE ALTERATION OF THE ZAPRUDER FILM - HAWKEYE WORKS.docx

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DJ

Brehm was in a very good position to view Elm/Houston;

He and his son stood right at the curb on the grass and saw the President's car take a wide swing as it turned left from Houston Street into Elm Street.[FBI statement 24th Nov 63]

As for why they left Truly's statement in the record, was he one of the few to sign off on his testimony? 

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37 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

DJ

Brehm was in a very good position to view Elm/Houston;

He and his son stood right at the curb on the grass and saw the President's car take a wide swing as it turned left from Houston Street into Elm Street.[FBI statement 24th Nov 63]

As for why they left Truly's statement in the record, was he one of the few to sign off on his testimony? 

He wasn't asked if he wanted to sign it... he signed his affidavit about the closing mechanism on the 2nd floor lunchroom. 

How would we know if he did or not without a copy of his signed deposition...  and I haven't been able to find anything yet to suggest he did sign it....

we usually get that 

Signed by:
/ROY TRULY/

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29 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

He wasn't asked if he wanted to sign it... he signed his affidavit about the closing mechanism on the 2nd floor lunchroom. 

How would we know if he did or not without a copy of his signed deposition...  and I haven't been able to find anything yet to suggest he did sign it....

we usually get that 

Signed by:
/ROY TRULY/

i wonder how many witnesses were shown their statements and told - here is the statement you made to us earlier, no need to read it,  just sign here  -"x"?

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45 minutes ago, Richard Price said:

i wonder how many witnesses were shown their statements and told - here is the statement you made to us earlier, no need to read it,  just sign here  -"x"?

Or they signed it at the time and then was changed afterward....  doubt there'd be too many buying the 26 volumes to check it word for word....

I actually think more just said no, they didn't need to sign it, "I trust you guys... heck, you're the government"

 

 

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Note below how Mr. Tyler manages to position the JFK limo into the Elm St centre lane in his impressive Motorcade 63 work.

If we overlay a vehicle, in this case the JFK limo with exposed rear axle, over the top of Mr. Tyler's Queen Mary, we find that the "axle gap" would not have been visible in the Hughes film frame.

The left side of the picture below shows the angle needed to expose the gap.

We know the Queen Mary tracked the JFK limo approximately 5 feet off the rear bumper, so it follows the JFK limo would have strayed into the Elm St RH lane as Truly described.

 

motorcade 63 angle compare 1.png

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On 8/9/2020 at 12:02 AM, Tony Krome said:

The left side of the picture below shows the angle needed to expose the gap.

We know the Queen Mary tracked the JFK limo approximately 5 feet off the rear bumper, so it follows the JFK limo would have strayed into the Elm St RH lane as Truly described

Mr. SPECTER. And what position is station C?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Station C is on a line drawn along the west curb line of Houston Street in a direct line, and station C is at a point along that line that is in line with where the car would have turned coming around that corner. It is on a line which is an extension of the west curb line of Houston Street.

And this image of Betzner's with Towner in the foreground isn't where that extension of the west Houston curb is crossed?

With them in the street... that limo does seem far from them....

Does this image help at all?

947180447_Betzner2atElmbehindTowners.thumb.jpg.23c9237ff08400fc10915415112266f9.jpg

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