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Traversing Station C - the "Axle Gap"


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DJ

Both of the photos above are very helpful. Please note the following;

1. Directly behind Betzner can be seen the grass line straightening in a north/south direction.

You can refer to the picture in my original post to see the north/south grass line on the plat.

This grass line, if extended north from Betzner, would approximate with Mother Towner's position.

Therefore, Betzner's photo of the JFK limo is in approximately the same position as the JFK limo in my original post.

2. Note Mr. Towner's shadow in both the Betzner photo and the Dorman frame above.

You can see that his shadow approximately represents his height, maybe even longer.

Lets say Mr. Towner is off the kerb by 2 feet, add the shadow, and we can work out the tip of his shadow head would extend at least 8 feet in a north north/east direction. It could be as much as 10 feet.

If you refer to the Betzner photo, you can see that his shadow points directly to the JFK limo rear wheel, and if extended, would point towards the north west corner of the Dal-Tex building. You can at least double the above distances to the JFK limo's rear wheel.

3. Note that front steering wheel of the JFK limo in Betzner is not at full lock.

4. With all the above info, bring up google maps, find Mr. Towner's position off the kerb, place your google measure tool on his position and extend it towards the Dal-Tex building.

That line will intersect the JFK limo's rear wheel as seen in Betzner. Looking at the Betzner photo, my guess is around 18 to 20 feet to the JFK rear wheel from the kerb.

Without full lock, the JFK limo appears destined to match Truly's testimony.

We can now see why the Towner splice is where it is. As Truly said, the limo "perceptively slowed" as closed in on the abutment. The splice allowed the perception of constant speed around the Elm/Houston corner.

 

 

Edited by Tony Krome
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Below is a Dorman collage with an overlay from the SS re-enactment.

This angle gives you an idea on the distance from the Towners to the motorcade as described in the previous post. A good 20 feet or even more.

Also shows how wide they took that corner. I placed the overlay there to depict the Queen Mary with axle gap as it traversed Station C, so you need to place the JFK limo 5 feet in front of that.

 

axle gap wide turn elm houston with ss overlay.png

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 8/9/2020 at 12:02 AM, Tony Krome said:

Note below how Mr. Tyler manages to position the JFK limo into the Elm St centre lane in his impressive Motorcade 63 work.

If we overlay a vehicle, in this case the JFK limo with exposed rear axle, over the top of Mr. Tyler's Queen Mary, we find that the "axle gap" would not have been visible in the Hughes film frame.

The left side of the picture below shows the angle needed to expose the gap.

We know the Queen Mary tracked the JFK limo approximately 5 feet off the rear bumper, so it follows the JFK limo would have strayed into the Elm St RH lane as Truly described.

 

motorcade 63 angle compare 1.png

Tony,

How does this path compare with the axle gap?

The path being closely representative of Robert West's plotting of JFK's position within the limo every 25ft, along with where the Towner film has the limo crossing the first lane marker on Elm St and Bell's LOS aligning the drivers side limo front corner with the TSBD corner.

 

Tony.gif

 

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On 8/7/2020 at 10:50 AM, David Josephs said:

The other side of the turn is betrayed by POSITION A which they claim the limo passed thru but was not on the Zfilm...  what bothers me most though is Truly mentions it as an after thought.... not as an answer to a direct question...  And he's the only one who says this....  Even without prompting you'd think a few others - like Brennan -would mention this.... ?????

David,

Is there a document or documents somewhere that list the various stations such as position A and any others such as station 7 or position 7 or whatever they are numbered.  

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8 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Tony,

How does this path compare with the axle gap?

The path being closely representative of Robert West's plotting of JFK's position within the limo every 25ft, along with where the Towner film has the limo crossing the first lane marker on Elm St and Bell's LOS aligning the drivers side limo front corner with the TSBD corner.

 

Tony.gif

 

In Dorman, it looks like the cycle cops start their turns between the last two lane dividers on Houston St.

Dorman.gif

 

 

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The first frame in this gif is when Betzner snaps his photo. To sync, look at the position of Jim and Tina's feet in Betzner.

Refer to the previous gif which shows Jim sliding his feet back together after taking his photo, which occurs before Betzner's photo.

About the time of Betzner's photo, Tina begins rotating her body as she pans the limo moving past her.

TownerLeg.gif

 

 

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On 8/7/2020 at 2:24 PM, Tony Krome said:

Position A is the key to understanding Elm st. Remarkable effort went into obliterating what happened at the Elm/Houston corner as you are well aware. We are left with scraps.

 

On 8/7/2020 at 5:26 PM, Richard Price said:

i wonder how many witnesses were shown their statements and told - here is the statement you made to us earlier, no need to read it,  just sign here  -"x"?

 

On 8/7/2020 at 6:19 PM, David Josephs said:

I actually think more just said no, they didn't need to sign it, "I trust you guys... heck, you're the government"

The single greatest cover up involving the motorcade is the turn onto Elm Street from Houston Street and what happened in front of the TSBD.  If what happened there was truly known then it would crumble the Warren Commission Conspiracy into dust.  Micro-dust.  Atomized.

Thanks to Marky Tyler I now have 92 witnesses who said that shooting occurred in front of the TSBD, at the intersection of Elm and Houston, and with a small number saying shooting occurred on Main Street and at the Main and Houston Street intersection.

There are 8 (if my memory is correct) films that become distorted or skip the area of the Court Records Building/intersection of Elm and Houston.  There is the well known Zapruder Gap that covers the p. limo in that area and was not turned off according to Zapruder.  Josephs does a fine job of explaining that.  There is the Towner film, an unbelievable sham.  Many of the photos in this area show signs of alteration such as Altgens 6.  The Towner film does not show the same thing as Altgens 6 blatantly.  Some films like Muchmore and Hughes do not show the crowds in the eastern crosswalk and northern crosswalk of the intersection of Elm and Houston Street that others do.  Jack White once compared Altgens 5 and the Zapruder film's versions of the eastern crosswalk and declared not a single person was the same. 

92 witnesses say something happened there.  There are many more that say the same thing except they have "immediately past" and "just after" the p. limo went by the TSBD and shots were heard.

IMO, you guys are on to something.  Keep up the good work.

Edited by John Butler
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13 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Tony,

How does this path compare with the axle gap?

The path being closely representative of Robert West's plotting of JFK's position within the limo every 25ft, along with where the Towner film has the limo crossing the first lane marker on Elm St and Bell's LOS aligning the drivers side limo front corner with the TSBD corner.

 

Tony.gif

 

Towner background stabilized.    

I stop the clip at the approx location where it ends in the above gif.

Towner-Stabilized2.gif

 

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6 hours ago, John Butler said:

David,

Is there a document or documents somewhere that list the various stations such as position A and any others such as station 7 or position 7 or whatever they are numbered.  

 

John,    the Exh you want is CE875 which photos a vehicle with the rear bumper over these station callouts...  but that original doc or even a copy is not in the records but from the personal records of Robert West via Tom Purvis.   At least that's how i remember it.

I don't think Robert West's plat was entered into evidence during the WC... the 20:1 scale version.  What they don't specifically mention is that each "station" is 25 feet from the previous... 0+00, 0+25....4+75, 5+00, etc.... they also do not mention this as being the path of the limo as described to WEST with these stations related to the REAR BUMPER (meaning the front bumper is almost 22 feet forward and JFK about 7 feet forward the rear bumper.

The only "Station" with a letter is the approximation as to where the limo turned at "C".... but then they add in measurements to POSITION A which in itself is a contradiction...   Why he says "would have turned" when you have a variety of images and photos showing exactly where they turned.... is a bit strange.

The station numbers should not be confused with the Elevation markers.... which are shown every 9.15 feet.  2 lines = 18.3 feet = 1 foot vertical from in Elm

So 2+75 is in line with Position A....  you can also see the "428" and "429" bracketing 2+75 and is at a point which looks like 428.75' above sea level
the math should work like this.  25 feet from 2+75 = 3+00...  25/18.3 = 1.37 vertical feet.   428.75 - 1.37 = 427.38... above the white writing "T-160" and under the black line representing the length of the limo (which is following the RED path high and to the right versus the green path which Shaneyfelt created and immortalized in CE884)
is the 3+00. 

The "+" is supposed to represent the rear bumper yet we can see this to be above the 427.5 line in the street as opposed to 427.38 (below the line) using the calcs.

The plats and diagrams the WCR used were crap... CE585 for example.   Here are some things Chris helped me understand...  the different elevations and locations on the limo for measurements PLUS the calc needed to get to the top of JFK's head....

CE878 and 879 show what was done to the Gauthier FBI model with strings and the shot down by the steps.... SOP FBI.

I was able to reduce the WEST plat down to a reasonable size for you to work with....  I'll leave it up here for download until a need more image space.... (bottom image)

Hope this helps
DJ

5a8726695dcd9_CE585showsshots2and3withz313inbetweenandthedisappearnceofshot3.thumb.jpg.bbbdf3b104880f13c9f23b148625ae54.jpg5abe55d11e595_Shot1ince58510.2feetdownElmcomparedwithce884-smaller.thumb.jpg.efed25dd4c0df28faf1173f77ba003da.jpg

1272596097_PositionoflimoinBELLshouldbePOSITIONAbutitisnot.thumb.jpg.4a4046b4c5f8e3290f70675673322421.jpg

 

492635091_TheturnintoPositionAthentoz133-singlelayer.thumb.jpg.1bf59405de8c772001ce8570eb8d1059.jpg

 

img_1134_897_300.png98420117_CLEANWESTPLAT-smaller.thumb.jpg.b284f32e3e155a6044a075862f8ca0e4.jpg

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On 8/11/2020 at 7:34 PM, Tony Krome said:

Below is a Dorman collage with an overlay from the SS re-enactment.

This angle gives you an idea on the distance from the Towners to the motorcade as described in the previous post. A good 20 feet or even more.

Also shows how wide they took that corner. I placed the overlay there to depict the Queen Mary with axle gap as it traversed Station C, so you need to place the JFK limo 5 feet in front of that.

 

axle gap wide turn elm houston with ss overlay.png

The relationship of the cycle cops to the limo front end(flashing red lines) at least at this point in the Dorman film. Matches the plotting laid out by Robert West fairly well. imo

Items to keep in mind:

1. What did West use to plot JFK's position in the limo around the Elm St turn. 

I vote for the missing part of the original Z film since "bulls--t" the Towner film was undiscovered at that time.

See Mack below for Towner comments. Obviously someone did some splicing early on, without the Towners knowledge.  

2. A splice doesn't necessarily mean the limo was redirected through Position A, it could indicate a longer period of time expired between the splices than we are led to believe.

3. If Truly was lying, his wide turn scenario could be a cover for the extended time lost between the splices.

4. After the first splice, JFK's head is aligned with the TSBD corner. Syncing purposes.

5. Information from Gary Mack:
In reply to your questions, the camera original Towner film has one splice about 2/3 of the way through the limo turn onto Elm Street. Since the film was never examined by government investigators, the splice was first noticed by Robert Groden, who served as a consultant to the HSCA photo panel in 1978.
From what Tina and Jim Towner told me over the years, they had no knowledge of how or when that splice was made. What is known is that the film was developed for them by The Dallas Morning News within a few days of the assassination; available records suggest the film was never seen by investigators until the HSCA. The only other time the film was out of the Towner’s possession was when LIFE magazine borrowed it from them in 1967 for publication in their November issue about Kennedy assassination photographers.

6.Sounds like the old Kodak/Jamieson shenanigans.

Cycle-Cops-Limo.gif

 

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Chris,

The gif directly above would have Hughes standing more towards the centre of Houston than I believe he was. If you look at the frame I posted in the original post, you will also see that the axle gap is very obvious, and that I have been conservative in my angle calculations, in other words, I believe the swing may be wider.

One can squeeze the limo into the Elm St centre lane and ignore Truly's comments, disregard the repeated re-enactments whereby the limo stand in vehicle originates from Position A, and determine alternate reasons why we don't see the Zapruder turn onto Elm. Then there's the Towner splice and the bizarre jerky Dorman film, which I don't believe for a minute that it was actually the way she filmed it. You mentioned shenanigans. What I believe they did with Dorman is the same thing they did with Zapruder. What we see, in certain sections of film, is the zoomed in version, which effectively blanks out the broader view. The evidence for this, is in the Zapruder testimony ... if you read it very closely.

As for Truly lying about the wide turn as a coverup? As DJ pointed out, it was an impromptu comment. Truly may have been coerced into falling in line with the Baker story, but that comment about the Elm St turn was legit. 

 

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6 hours ago, David Josephs said:

John,    the Exh you want is CE875 which photos a vehicle with the rear bumper over these station callouts...  but that original doc or even a copy is not in the records but from the personal records of Robert West via Tom Purvis.   At least that's how i remember it.

Thanks David,

CE875 is a reconstruction based on the Zapruder film?  What was it based on?  And, was done by the FBI?  What actual photo material did they use to make their determinations?  CE875 looks like a reconstruction based upon he assumptions of the makers.  How accurate is it?  This has been debated before I would assume several times?

From 2015 Robert Prudhomme says:

Posted February 14, 2015 (edited)

Hi Brad

…I believe, for the last 50 years, a lot of researchers have relied upon the WC for ballistics information in this case, instead of doing the work and figuring things out for themselves, and have only succeeded in pushing the original lies from the FBI.

J. Edgar and the boys appear to be the main cover up agency for the WC. 

1909127185_hughes6floor1.thumb.jpg.12947a7a0f7de7b09d47ef666b1c8a78.jpg

This Hughes frame appears to have the p. limo headed directly to Roy Truly.  The wide turn is probably the only true thing Roy Truly said, truly.  It's here that Toni Glover said she saw the president's head explode.  Tina Turner's film says different.  Tina said the p. limo rounded the corner and she heard a sound.  Rosemary Willis said she heard a shot when the p. limo was making the turn onto Elm.  It's the battle of the 3 pre-teen girls and the Towner film.  

 

 

 

Edited by John Butler
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8 hours ago, John Butler said:

CE875 is a reconstruction based on the Zapruder film?  What was it based on?  And, was done by the FBI?  What actual photo material did they use to make their determinations?  CE875 looks like a reconstruction based upon he assumptions of the makers.  How accurate is it?  This has been debated before I would assume several times?

https://kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsFBIZ313.pdf
 

Did this a while back, yet some is out of date now... but I do look into where the info comes from....

Enjoy...  then read the Math Rules thread.

 

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On 8/27/2020 at 6:39 PM, Tony Krome said:

Chris,

The gif directly above would have Hughes standing more towards the centre of Houston than I believe he was. If you look at the frame I posted in the original post, you will also see that the axle gap is very obvious, and that I have been conservative in my angle calculations, in other words, I believe the swing may be wider.

One can squeeze the limo into the Elm St centre lane and ignore Truly's comments, disregard the repeated re-enactments whereby the limo stand in vehicle originates from Position A, and determine alternate reasons why we don't see the Zapruder turn onto Elm. Then there's the Towner splice and the bizarre jerky Dorman film, which I don't believe for a minute that it was actually the way she filmed it. You mentioned shenanigans. What I believe they did with Dorman is the same thing they did with Zapruder. What we see, in certain sections of film, is the zoomed in version, which effectively blanks out the broader view. The evidence for this, is in the Zapruder testimony ... if you read it very closely.

As for Truly lying about the wide turn as a coverup? As DJ pointed out, it was an impromptu comment. Truly may have been coerced into falling in line with the Baker story, but that comment about the Elm St turn was legit. 

 

Tony,

How do you take the axle gap path, continue it towards the Truly abutment (ending up approx 1 inch away according to Truly) then have the limo front end in the orientation/angle with regards to the first lane divider on Elm St that we see in Towner?

Can you show us the rest of the axle gap path and have it continue on to that first lane divider?

I mentioned previously about the after splice which aligns JFK's head with the corner of the TSBD.

Now extend a LOS from the tree through PositionA and back to Towner's filming location or closely thereto.

TownerTurn.gif  TownerLane-Stripe.png

 

 

 

 

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On 8/27/2020 at 3:01 PM, David Josephs said:

 

 

The "+" is supposed to represent the rear bumper yet we can see this to be above the 427.5 line in the street as opposed to 427.38 (below the line) using the calc

 

 


img_1134_897_300.png

 

David,

This might be a bit confusing for others so just to clarify, during the re-enactment(don't know how many times) shenanigans  the limo rear end was used as a place marker for JFK's position(Station#) on Elm St. The wiseman Robert West implemented the little "plus" signs so there would be an accurate way for plotting JFK. He knew the WC was up to no good. 

Screen-Shot-2020-08-29-at-8.37.37-AM.png

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