Richard Booth Posted September 8, 2020 Author Share Posted September 8, 2020 (edited) Obviously the "script" called for Oswald to shoot and kill the President and then to kill a police officer. The shenanigans when it comes to the paperwork for the rifle and for the pistol put a spotlight on both of them. The only explanation for fabricated or suspect anomalies with the paperwork is that somehow both items are connected to the conspiracy. So the pistol was there for a good reason, the script must have called for the pistol. Now, how do we figure Oswald into the whole thing? Many people will argue that he didn't even have a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, they illustrate problems with the paperwork, problems with the advertisement, problems with the money order allegedly used to buy the rifle (never cashed), and they conclude that Oswald never had that rifle. Okay, so let's operate on that assumption. How about the pistol? We know for sure he had that pistol, and we know he went and got it right after the assassination and he took it with him to the Texas Theater. How do we reconcile the notion that he didn't have the rifle, but he definitely did have the pistol? The two things are mutually exclusive but I tend to link the two in my mind: if he had one, then he had the other. Which leads me to conclude he had the rifle. Even then, if you conclude that he had the rifle, you run into problems: how was the rifle delivered, under the name of Alek Hidell when the P.O. box had the name Oswald on it? Postal regulations would require Oswald to have put the Hidell name on the box in order for mail to be delivered there. How about the fact Oswald's mail was being monitored and he was on the HT/LINGUAL mail opening list? If he was on that list, how do we explain the delivery of a very long package that is in a different name? If he did have the rifle, and the paperwork for obtaining it and tracing it's origin is somehow fabricated, we have to ask then "well how did he get the rifle?" I am persuaded by John Armstrong's work on the rifle, and David Josephs' postings here about that rifle, which show that there is a problem: Oswald had a 40 inch MC rifle with a scope on it but Kleins only sold 36" rifles with scopes. So, what gives? The script originally called for Oswald to have the scope mounted on the rifle after he purchased it: we have the witnesses throughout November at 1) Furniture Mar 2) Dial Ryder's gun shop 3) Sports Drome Rifle range, all three of which show a man looking for and then obtaining a scope. We have highly suspicious "anonymous tips" being made to DPD And FBI saying that Oswald had a scope mounted on his rifle--aren't these anonymous tips quite obviously clues to what the "script" illustrated? However, on November 29th the "script" appears to be modified: Dial Ryder denies to CBS News and other reporters that he ever mounted any scope for Oswald. After that, and going forward, FBI claims that the scope came with the rifle. Which is a problematic thing given that Klein's sold 36" MC rifles with scopes, but did not sell 40" with scopes. Another thing about the scope which Craig Roberts observed: that scope was mounted incorrectly. The two knobs (top and side) that you use to adjust the scope were oriented in the wrong fashion, essentially that the scope was put on the weapon sideways. Had Klein's OR Dial Ryder mounted the scope they would have mounted it properly. So you see here we have all sorts of questions and problems with these weapons, whether or not you believe they were sent to Oswald or not. Edited September 8, 2020 by Richard Booth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 On 9/7/2020 at 6:59 PM, Richard Booth said: Obviously the "script" On 9/7/2020 at 5:36 PM, Jeff Royle said: What's your take on the pistol You've hit upon topics near and dear to my heart... and years of work. https://kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsPistol.pdf You'll be amazed at the 2 different and provable paths that pistol took... As to the rifle.... thanks Richard, John's work set the foundation as well as a good part of that structure... we just took it a little further.... On 9/7/2020 at 6:59 PM, Richard Booth said: I am persuaded by John Armstrong's work on the rifle, and David Josephs' postings here about that rifle, which show that there is a problem: Oswald had a 40 inch MC rifle with a scope on it but Kleins only sold 36" rifles with scopes. So, what gives? We must remember that originally the rifle was a 7.65mm Mauser-type (Roger Craig said it was stamped on the top as shown below - top left) other stamp ID's included 7.35 and the 6.5 mm.... there is only 1 photo of what is said to be CE-137's caliber stamp, and it appears to have a "3" not "5" the story I had heard was that a Mauser uses a Stripper clip which does not go into the rifle when loading.. a missing clip would make the Carcano hand-loaded or give the Mauser even more credibility .... so a clip was invented/found for the Carcano which must have used one to shoot that quickly. Of note: SA ODUM of the FBI is the man who drives DAY back to his office with the rifle, shells, and "clip" Day's note seems to add the clip as an after thought and the CLIP would have fallen out when that bolt was opened.. Doesn't look like 6.5 to moi... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Booth Posted September 10, 2020 Author Share Posted September 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, David Josephs said: You've hit upon topics near and dear to my heart... and years of work. https://kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsPistol.pdf You'll be amazed at the 2 different and provable paths that pistol took... As to the rifle.... thanks Richard, John's work set the foundation as well as a good part of that structure... we just took it a little further.... We must remember that originally the rifle was a 7.65mm Mauser-type (Roger Craig said it was stamped on the top as shown below - top left) other stamp ID's included 7.35 and the 6.5 mm.... there is only 1 photo of what is said to be CE-137's caliber stamp, and it appears to have a "3" not "5" the story I had heard was that a Mauser uses a Stripper clip which does not go into the rifle when loading.. a missing clip would make the Carcano hand-loaded or give the Mauser even more credibility .... so a clip was invented/found for the Carcano which must have used one to shoot that quickly. Of note: SA ODUM of the FBI is the man who drives DAY back to his office with the rifle, shells, and "clip" Day's note seems to add the clip as an after thought and the CLIP would have fallen out when that bolt was opened.. Doesn't look like 6.5 to moi... Huge problems with that clip being inside the rifle in those photos of Lt. Day - as you mentioned and as anyone who has ever handled a MC knows, the clip falls out of the rifle when the last round is chambered. The biggest issue to me is how these idiots didn't load an entire 6 round clip into the MC and leave it on the 6th floor with the clip inside and two rounds left. The way it was found we must assume that "Oswald" loaded 4 bullets into the clip and that's just improbable. No one who has ever used firearms has put a handful of rounds in a clip. You always fill it to capacity. So that's a glaring error. Perhaps it does relate to the reports of the Mauser being found, I don't know. What I do know is that no one used that MC to fire at the President because if they had they would have had 6 bullets in it, not four. It's improbable to load just a few bullets. We're also to believe that Oswald purchased four bullets, not a box of bullets? How come no ammo was found anywhere? Had this been planned better the conspirators would have left a box of ammo in Paine's garage. They would have left that MC with a clip w/ two rounds still in it inside the rifle. But then, I suspect the conspirators never thought that we'd have people looking at this in depth. Hell they didn't expect anyone would even read the WC report. The arrogance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 On 9/7/2020 at 6:59 PM, Richard Booth said: How do we reconcile the notion that he didn't have the rifle, but he definitely did have the pistol? Definitely? Other than that afternoon, can you name one other time any pistol is connected to Oswald? or how that pistol gets from Magazine Street to Irving then to Beckley... let alone from SEAPORT to REA for pick-up. All I can think of are the Backyard Photos which I feel helps my case more than hurts it... 1 minute ago, Richard Booth said: The biggest issue to me is how these idiots didn't load an entire 6 round clip into the MC and leave it on the 6th floor with the clip inside and two rounds left. With tongue in cheek Richard (and from my 1st ever article) Oswald needs to retrieve the bag with a disassembled rifle, bullets and clip rattling around; get to the 6th floor; assemble the rifle with a dime(?), hope the sight is still aligned, load in a partially filled clip and be at that window by a time he THINKS the motorcade would come by... 12:10-12:20 for a 12:30 luncheon. The only people on the 6th floor at this time - we know for sure - were Williams, a man seen in a jacket and glasses, and the person caught in Dillard at the far WEST end of the 6th floor.... The props dropped - IMO - were the props needed.... I've said it before - There is no way to underestimate the Hubris of Authority at the time. Just look how quickly the info from the DPD press conference was squashed by the FBI... Take care and always good chatting with you DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Booth Posted September 10, 2020 Author Share Posted September 10, 2020 (edited) 45 minutes ago, David Josephs said: Definitely? Other than that afternoon, can you name one other time any pistol is connected to Oswald? or how that pistol gets from Magazine Street to Irving then to Beckley... let alone from SEAPORT to REA for pick-up. All I can think of are the Backyard Photos which I feel helps my case more than hurts it... With tongue in cheek Richard (and from my 1st ever article) Oswald needs to retrieve the bag with a disassembled rifle, bullets and clip rattling around; get to the 6th floor; assemble the rifle with a dime(?), hope the sight is still aligned, load in a partially filled clip and be at that window by a time he THINKS the motorcade would come by... 12:10-12:20 for a 12:30 luncheon. The only people on the 6th floor at this time - we know for sure - were Williams, a man seen in a jacket and glasses, and the person caught in Dillard at the far WEST end of the 6th floor.... The props dropped - IMO - were the props needed.... I've said it before - There is no way to underestimate the Hubris of Authority at the time. Just look how quickly the info from the DPD press conference was squashed by the FBI... Take care and always good chatting with you DJ I'm saying he definitely had a pistol because he was arrested carrying that pistol, he had it on him. Just that afternoon. That's about all I know about the pistol. About the ONLY other example I can think of about that pistol is a thing that is highly controversial: the KGB officers stationed at Mexico City claim that not only was the man who visited them the real LHO, but that he pulled out a pistol and set it on the counter. Of course, this doesn't make it the same pistol. And of course it's a legitimate question as to whether or not Oswald was actually ever in Mexico City. So this example is problematic. I pretty agree with everything else you said in your post. Edited September 10, 2020 by Richard Booth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Iacoletti Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 On 9/7/2020 at 5:06 PM, Richard Booth said: As it is, we're expected to believe that Oswald loaded four bullets into the clip, fired three bullets, chambered the final round, which would then make the clip empty and cause it to fall out of the rifle. Well supposedly this clip had a tendency to get jammed in the rifle. Mr. Edgar. The cartridge clip was removed from CE-139 by Lieutenant Day of the Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963 at the crime laboratory for the police department. Shouldn't a clip automatically fall out once the last cartridge has fed into the chamber? Mr. Lutz. This rifle is designed to incorporate that feature so that the last cartridge is stripped out of the clip, then that allows the clip itself to fall or to drop from the opening that you see in the bottom of the box magazine. However, in many cases, and in this particular case, where we functioned the rifle, fed cartridges through it, we found this clip to stay in the rifle after the last round had been stripped and fed into the chamber. Because the lips or the edges of the clip many times will open up, they will spring against the walls on the inside of the box magazine and it will hang up in that area, and even though it is supposed to drop out, many times it will hang up in the box area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 15 minutes ago, Richard Booth said: I'm saying he definitely had a pistol because he was arrested carrying that pistol, he had it on him. Just that afternoon. That's about all I know about the pistol. And I am, without sarcasm stating there is no definitive way to show he had a pistol on him when entering that theater. The subsequent finding of a holster supposedly hanging on a doorknob is absurd, and as many have shown, our Oswald didn't actually live at Beckley (some great thread here on that) The only reports placing a gun in his possession are those of the DPD, of course. Yet the pistol in evidence as well as the shells and extra ammo are all standard issue for police forces... this was no ordinary pistol with ordinary ammo.... What we do know is at some point Carroll gives a pistol to Hill... all of the identification markings for that pistol are engraved AFTER they all meet in WESTBROOK's office.... At the linked article in a previous post I trace the two different paths of the "pistol".... After all I've read and seen with DPD/FBI reports that are simply lies, there is no reason they would not report "Oswald with a pistol trying to kill a cop".... If you could help me understand what non-DPD evidence suggests to you he had a pistol of that type EVER in his possession, I sure would appreciate it. (I mean you got Bentley claiming he sees Oswald pull the pistol just as he entered the theater and 3-6 men are fighting with Oswald - Bentley had been in the BALCONY where most every DPD report places the location of the suspect - "as they were told" "we heard he was in the balcony".... etc. We've all seen STRINGFELLOW's report about the suspect being captured in the Balcony..... along with the boy taken out the back.... So, no... I do not believe the reports he had a pistol on him at any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Iacoletti Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 1 minute ago, David Josephs said: The only reports placing a gun in his possession are those of the DPD, of course. And then only McDonald's. Everything else is hearsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 30 minutes ago, John Iacoletti said: Well supposedly this clip had a tendency to get jammed in the rifle. Mr. Edgar. The cartridge clip was removed from CE-139 by Lieutenant Day of the Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963 at the crime laboratory for the police department. Shouldn't a clip automatically fall out once the last cartridge has fed into the chamber? Mr. Lutz. This rifle is designed to incorporate that feature so that the last cartridge is stripped out of the clip, then that allows the clip itself to fall or to drop from the opening that you see in the bottom of the box magazine. However, in many cases, and in this particular case, where we functioned the rifle, fed cartridges through it, we found this clip to stay in the rifle after the last round had been stripped and fed into the chamber. Because the lips or the edges of the clip many times will open up, they will spring against the walls on the inside of the box magazine and it will hang up in that area, and even though it is supposed to drop out, many times it will hang up in the box area. Welcome to the forum John.... seems you've been here enough to chime in... hope you're enjoying your stay here.... What gets me about the whole jam thing.... far right image and others showed nothing protruding from the bottom and as you can see, the bolt is opened already The other 2 images show that protrusion... Below that is an overlay I just did showing the diagram of the clip system and a better image of the clip area of the rifle... Sure looks like it's in the right place.... but when does it go from not being there - as in this image to being there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 27 minutes ago, John Iacoletti said: And then only McDonald's. Everything else is hearsay. I wouldn't go that far... I think the white cap is McDonald yet there were plenty of other DPD on the scene... I thought I had read an account or two which said the pistol attributed to Oswald appears from somewhere else... I'll go check the reports... I'd suggest reading the Arrest reports of the men listed in this photo... DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Booth Posted September 11, 2020 Author Share Posted September 11, 2020 3 hours ago, John Iacoletti said: Well supposedly this clip had a tendency to get jammed in the rifle. Mr. Edgar. The cartridge clip was removed from CE-139 by Lieutenant Day of the Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963 at the crime laboratory for the police department. Shouldn't a clip automatically fall out once the last cartridge has fed into the chamber? Mr. Lutz. This rifle is designed to incorporate that feature so that the last cartridge is stripped out of the clip, then that allows the clip itself to fall or to drop from the opening that you see in the bottom of the box magazine. However, in many cases, and in this particular case, where we functioned the rifle, fed cartridges through it, we found this clip to stay in the rifle after the last round had been stripped and fed into the chamber. Because the lips or the edges of the clip many times will open up, they will spring against the walls on the inside of the box magazine and it will hang up in that area, and even though it is supposed to drop out, many times it will hang up in the box area. So these people say. Get yourself a MC rifle and a clip and see for yourself. It falls out every time. See Craig Roberts' MC mechanics video and you can see the only way the clip could be jammed in the rifle is if it's bent outward and in that case, it would't function. So I don't believe Mr. Lutz in this case because I've seen a MC rifle operated and see how the clip falls right out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Booth Posted September 11, 2020 Author Share Posted September 11, 2020 "f you could help me understand what non-DPD evidence suggests to you he had a pistol of that type EVER in his possession, I sure would appreciate it." This is argumentative and stupid. There isn't any "non-DPD evidence" which I've already said. I "sure would appreciate" you not being a snarky xxxxx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 11, 2020 Share Posted September 11, 2020 13 hours ago, Richard Booth said: "f you could help me understand what non-DPD evidence suggests to you he had a pistol of that type EVER in his possession, I sure would appreciate it." This is argumentative and stupid. There isn't any "non-DPD evidence" which I've already said. I "sure would appreciate" you not being a snarky xxxxx. Richard... sorry if it came across as "snarky" - If the only evidence comes from the DPD - and the pistol could not possibly have come to Oswald via REA... Why do you accept he entered the theater with it on him? ======= I am sincerely asking as I know the provenance of that pistol... it came from SEAPORT who got if from Century International Arms (CIA)/Empire Wholesale both owned at the time by William Sucher of Canada. Sucher had also received in June 1962 a rifle with serial No. "2766". All 700 rifles were listed without a leading letter, and there were 5 more rifles in his shipment that had the same serial "numbers" as Klein's 100 rifle order. Anyway, from what I can tell no one ever got an REA postcard, and there's no record of anyone ever picking up that pistol. and finally, bottom image, the COD charges were never paid to REA who I do believe was in the business to charge for shipping... not ship things free... So once again without the assumptions and attitude - when he walked into the Theater, what proves to you he had a weapon? Fritz saying he says he did? "y'know, like how boys do".... Or maybe look into explaining why every shell casing in evidence looks as if they were recently pulled from a police belt that holds bullets... and the pistol itself is the exact same as used by the DPD.... The conspiracy to implicate Oswald extends to every item of evidence, if it didn't implicate, it wasn't important. and then there's that nasty BALCONY business.... I'm simply looking for the sources that lead you to your conclusion.... when the preponderance of Authentic evidence shows Oswald and that pistol never came in contact.... DJ ps... we have no records from REA showing a deposit, no postcard like those shown below, and nothing to document the journey it needs to take to wind up - supposedly - at 1026 Beckley... Mr. JENNER - You didn't see any kind of weapon? Mrs. PAINE - No. Mr. JENNER - Firearm, rifle, pistol, or otherwise? Mrs. PAINE - No; I saw nothing of that nature. Mr. JENNER - Did you drive them to your home? Mrs. PAINE - Yes. Mr. JENNER - Were the materials and things in your station wagon unpacked and placed in your home? Mrs. PAINE - Yes; immediately. Mr. JENNER - Did you see that being done, were you present? Mrs. PAINE - I helped do it; yes. Mr. JENNER - Did you see any weapon on that occasion? Mrs. PAINE - No. Mr. JENNER - Whether a rifle, pistol or-- Mrs. PAINE - No. Mr. JENNER - Or any covering, any package, that looked as though it might have a weapon, pistol, or firearm? Mrs. PAINE - No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Booth Posted September 11, 2020 Author Share Posted September 11, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, David Josephs said: Richard... sorry if it came across as "snarky" - If the only evidence comes from the DPD - and the pistol could not possibly have come to Oswald via REA... Why do you accept he entered the theater with it on him? ======= I am sincerely asking as I know the provenance of that pistol... it came from SEAPORT who got if from Century International Arms (CIA)/Empire Wholesale both owned at the time by William Sucher of Canada. Sucher had also received in June 1962 a rifle with serial No. "2766". All 700 rifles were listed without a leading letter, and there were 5 more rifles in his shipment that had the same serial "numbers" as Klein's 100 rifle order. Anyway, from what I can tell no one ever got an REA postcard, and there's no record of anyone ever picking up that pistol. and finally, bottom image, the COD charges were never paid to REA who I do believe was in the business to charge for shipping... not ship things free... So once again without the assumptions and attitude - when he walked into the Theater, what proves to you he had a weapon? Fritz saying he says he did? "y'know, like how boys do".... Or maybe look into explaining why every shell casing in evidence looks as if they were recently pulled from a police belt that holds bullets... and the pistol itself is the exact same as used by the DPD.... The conspiracy to implicate Oswald extends to every item of evidence, if it didn't implicate, it wasn't important. and then there's that nasty BALCONY business.... I'm simply looking for the sources that lead you to your conclusion.... when the preponderance of Authentic evidence shows Oswald and that pistol never came in contact.... DJ ps... we have no records from REA showing a deposit, no postcard like those shown below, and nothing to document the journey it needs to take to wind up - supposedly - at 1026 Beckley... Mr. JENNER - You didn't see any kind of weapon? Mrs. PAINE - No. Mr. JENNER - Firearm, rifle, pistol, or otherwise? Mrs. PAINE - No; I saw nothing of that nature. Mr. JENNER - Did you drive them to your home? Mrs. PAINE - Yes. Mr. JENNER - Were the materials and things in your station wagon unpacked and placed in your home? Mrs. PAINE - Yes; immediately. Mr. JENNER - Did you see that being done, were you present? Mrs. PAINE - I helped do it; yes. Mr. JENNER - Did you see any weapon on that occasion? Mrs. PAINE - No. Mr. JENNER - Whether a rifle, pistol or-- Mrs. PAINE - No. Mr. JENNER - Or any covering, any package, that looked as though it might have a weapon, pistol, or firearm? Mrs. PAINE - No. I have already said these things: (1) I don't know much about the pistol (2) What I do know tells me that pistol wasn't used to kill Tippit. No one would open their revolver and drop spent cartridges at the scene (3) The only evidence I've seen about the revolver comes from when Oswald was arrested I think it's important for a person to be open, not be "wedded" to any one scenario, and especially important to acknowledge when you might be wrong and it's for these reasons that I make it very clear I know little about the revolver and what I do know I could be wrong about. You seem to think I believe it is a "constant" that Oswald owned the revolver and that this is etched in stone when in reality this is merely a "variable" that I don't know much about. Put simply, the revolver like many other things in this case is not something I have an inflexible position on. In fact I've been real clear in saying I don't know much about it. The only thing about that revolver which I am absolutely certain about is that it didn't kill Tippit, and here is why I say that: Shell casings were recovered from the crime scene. This means that had the so-called Oswald revolver killed Tippit, then the person who used it would have had to open the revolver, pull out empty shell casings, them throw them at the crime scene. I know that the odds that Oswald, or anyone else, would do that are non-existant. Who removes spent rounds from a revolver and drops the casings at the scene? No one, no one does that. It's absurd: "I need to make sure I leave evidence at the crime scene, let me open this revolver and drop my shell casings here..." Edited September 11, 2020 by Richard Booth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Booth Posted September 11, 2020 Author Share Posted September 11, 2020 (edited) "I'm simply looking for the sources that lead you to your conclusion" No you're not, you're looking to argue. I've already said several times "I don't know much about the revolver." "About all I know on that revolver is that Oswald had it when he was arrested" You just want to argue here and that is quite obvious. Me on the other hand, I'm not viewing anything about that pistol as a "constant" nor as some sort of ideological position that I must defend until death. In fact, I view it as a "variable" and my position on it will change as more information comes in. If you do want to argue you're not going to get that from me, I am not interested in arguing anything, only in learning. So, perhaps instead of saying "show me this" or "produce evidence" on something I am far from certain about, lay out your reasons why you believe there wasn't a pistol and I'll be happy to look at that. A persuasive and compelling argument for your position is far better than argumentative questions about something I don't have any firm position on. There is about one thing that I would argue with someone about relating to that pistol and it's the shell casings found at the crime scene. I would probably argue with anyone who tried to say those came from Oswald's pistol and that he fired them, for all the reasons I've outlined here: no one kills a cop then flips open the chamber on their revolver, pulls out the shells, and drops them at the scene. In fact, the fact that shell casings were found at the scene tends to indicate the weapon used to kill Tippit was an automatic and not a revolver. Edited September 11, 2020 by Richard Booth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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