Mannlicher-Carcano Clip

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Richard Booth said:

So, perhaps instead of saying "show me this" or "produce evidence" on something I am far from certain about, lay out your reasons why you believe there wasn't a pistol and I'll be happy to look at that. 

I honestly thought I had done that Richard.  In posts on this thread and articles posted/linked at K&K. 

Here is mine again with John's as well.
http://harveyandlee.net/Guns/Pistol.html  is a short piece by Armstrong, a mentor and friend who has spent countless hours discussing these topics
https://kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsPistol.pdf  this is mine and takes things a bit further...

Richard,

It is not my intention to argue with you... trying to determine if there is something I was not aware of that led you to conclude he had a pistol on him when he entered the theater.

DPD statements saying he did are, IMO, not enough.  Their credibility is dodgy at best with regards to items that incriminate Oswald - I'd think we agree on that. 

You see I do know about the pistol...  I do know what happened in Westbrook's office and did trace the travels of 2 pistols that day... and I agree with you on most of the points related to the Tippit murder and the staged reloading of the pistol in order to leave evidence...

We agree it was not Oswald killing Tippit.  So there would be little reason to go against all the evidence showing he never got a pistol, to put one in his hands now as he enters the theater.

I am saying that the DPD planted "A" pistol on the man that surfaces during this scuffle which becomes "THE" pistol back at DPD in Westbrook's office.  Everybody agrees on the "click" (like Baker claiming he climbed the stairs with Truly... ) so it must have happened.

I am also saying that WESTBROOK planted a wallet at the Tippit crime scene to add the name HIDELL to the evidence which connects Oswald to the rifle and pistol orders...  

I am saying there is no evidence that Oswald had a pistol at any point in time after his return in June 1962.
(Note: June 1962 is the month 700 Carcano FC rifles including 2766 arrive at Century Arms / Empire Wholesale and is the month on FELDSOTT's affidavit as to when that rifle was sold to Klein's - the connections are pervasive)

On a previous post I discuss the Postcard that never existed, a shipment that never happened and the existence of a pistol that isn't here, there or anywhere to be found prior to 11/22.

So that is why I see it highly unlikely that Oswald entered the Texas Theater with any pistol...

It has even been postulated that the pistol is given to the DPD in the balcony of the theater (where the DPD was first directed and where a number of reports still place the arrest).. and then becomes part of the main floor scuffle...  a pistol that supposedly just fired off 4 rounds killing a man - that now doesn't work.  How convenient for the DPD is that?

And finally the large number of loose bullets....  he shoots 4 times, reloads with 4-6 shells and still has 5 more shells in his pants pocket at the DPD.... he's walking around with 9 to 11 live shells and a pistol with 4-6 shells...  Another thing to find "odd" considering he was searched 2 or 3 times before these bullets were found.... oh and the magic bus transfer but that's another article for another day....

Mr. BELIN. How many did you find?
Mr. HILL. There were six in the chambers of the gun

No offense intended at all Richard.... I'm sorry it came off that way.  I learn new things about old subjects all the time... the main reason I come here...  it's just that some things taken for granted, like honest police reports, can't be in this case...  the pistol is no different than the paper bag or the rifle or the tramps...  all props, at least as I see it.

Take care
DJ

[Richard Booth]

1 minute ago, David Josephs said:

trying to determine

Asked and answered about four times

[Richard Booth]

@David 

What I know about the pistol comes from officer McDonald.

I have seen enough examples already to know that DPD had zero integrity and constantly either lied or behaved in ways that were wildly inappropriate so the notion that he is lying here is not the least bit controversial to me, rather it fits with the DPD officers' behavior at the time:

 

[Richard Booth]

18 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

I honestly thought I had done that Richard.  In posts on this thread and articles posted/linked at K&K. 

Here is mine again with John's as well.
http://harveyandlee.net/Guns/Pistol.html  is a short piece by Armstrong, a mentor and friend who has spent countless hours discussing these topics
https://kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsPistol.pdf  this is mine and takes things a bit further...

Richard,

It is not my intention to argue with you... trying to determine if there is something I was not aware of that led you to conclude he had a pistol on him when he entered the theater.

DPD statements saying he did are, IMO, not enough.  Their credibility is dodgy at best with regards to items that incriminate Oswald - I'd think we agree on that. 

You see I do know about the pistol...  I do know what happened in Westbrook's office and did trace the travels of 2 pistols that day... and I agree with you on most of the points related to the Tippit murder and the staged reloading of the pistol in order to leave evidence...

We agree it was not Oswald killing Tippit.  So there would be little reason to go against all the evidence showing he never got a pistol, to put one in his hands now as he enters the theater.

I am saying that the DPD planted "A" pistol on the man that surfaces during this scuffle which becomes "THE" pistol back at DPD in Westbrook's office.  Everybody agrees on the "click" (like Baker claiming he climbed the stairs with Truly... ) so it must have happened.

I am also saying that WESTBROOK planted a wallet at the Tippit crime scene to add the name HIDELL to the evidence which connects Oswald to the rifle and pistol orders...  

I am saying there is no evidence that Oswald had a pistol at any point in time after his return in June 1962.
(Note: June 1962 is the month 700 Carcano FC rifles including 2766 arrive at Century Arms / Empire Wholesale and is the month on FELDSOTT's affidavit as to when that rifle was sold to Klein's - the connections are pervasive)

On a previous post I discuss the Postcard that never existed, a shipment that never happened and the existence of a pistol that isn't here, there or anywhere to be found prior to 11/22.

So that is why I see it highly unlikely that Oswald entered the Texas Theater with any pistol...

It has even been postulated that the pistol is given to the DPD in the balcony of the theater (where the DPD was first directed and where a number of reports still place the arrest).. and then becomes part of the main floor scuffle...  a pistol that supposedly just fired off 4 rounds killing a man - that now doesn't work.  How convenient for the DPD is that?

And finally the large number of loose bullets....  he shoots 4 times, reloads with 4-6 shells and still has 5 more shells in his pants pocket at the DPD.... he's walking around with 9 to 11 live shells and a pistol with 4-6 shells...  Another thing to find "odd" considering he was searched 2 or 3 times before these bullets were found.... oh and the magic bus transfer but that's another article for another day....

Mr. BELIN. How many did you find?
Mr. HILL. There were six in the chambers of the gun

No offense intended at all Richard.... I'm sorry it came off that way.  I learn new things about old subjects all the time... the main reason I come here...  it's just that some things taken for granted, like honest police reports, can't be in this case...  the pistol is no different than the paper bag or the rifle or the tramps...  all props, at least as I see it.

Take care
DJ

Another thing that lends to this notion is that while Oswald was still alive he was never accused to attempting to murder someone inside the Texas theater. 

I believe that if you tried to fire a pistol at a police officer in front of a bunch of other cops you'd catch attempted murder charges immediately.

That this was NEVER done while Oswald was alive and this story didn't come about until he was no longer around to contest it is highly suspect to me

[David Josephs]

1 minute ago, Richard Booth said:

Another thing that lends to this notion is that while Oswald was still alive he was never accused to attempting to murder someone inside the Texas theater. 

I believe that if you tried to fire a pistol at a police officer in front of a bunch of other cops you'd catch attempted murder charges immediately.

That this was NEVER done while Oswald was alive and this story didn't come about until he was no longer around to contest it is highly suspect to me

Hadn't even considered that Richard... great point.  {applause}  

Now that you mention it, McD and the others seem pretty casual after supposedly having a murder suspect with a gun try to shoot one of them...

Amazing the things that can be overlooked.... that I can overlook

thanks for this Richard...

DJ

[Tony Krome]

Mr. FRITZ.  The only thing he said he had done wrong, "The only law I violated was in the show; I hit the officer in the show; he hit me in the eye and I guess I deserved it." He said, "That is the only law I violated." He said, "That is the only thing I have done wrong." 

 

At that point, you'd expect the Homicide Captain to explain to the suspect that attempting to shoot a police officer was also in violation of the law

[James DiEugenio]

Nice one Tony.

[Ron Bulman]

Richard, I have to say I don't think DJ's being snarky, he's being factual.  He's been investigating the subject several years, you really should read his articles at https://kennedysandking.com/.  If you've not.  They are eye opening, if your open minded to the Truth. 

[Greg Doudna]

On 9/11/2020 at 12:09 PM, Richard Booth said:

The only thing about that revolver which I am absolutely certain about is that it didn't kill Tippit, and here is why I say that: Shell casings were recovered from the crime scene. This means that had the so-called Oswald revolver killed Tippit, then the person who used it would have had to open the revolver, pull out empty shell casings, them throw them at the crime scene. I know that the odds that Oswald, or anyone else, would do that are non-existant. Who removes spent rounds from a revolver and drops the casings at the scene? No one, no one does that. It's absurd: "I need to make sure I leave evidence at the crime scene, let me open this revolver and drop my shell casings here..." 

Not disagreeing with you here, only asking a question: in explanation for why the killer of Tippit would pull out empty shell casings and throw them down while running away, could that not be for the purpose of rapidly reloading--while running--in order to be able to have ability to use the pistol lethally again quickly if necessary?  

Edited September 13, 2020 by Greg Doudna

[David Josephs]

10 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Not disagreeing with you here, only asking a question: in explanation for why the killer of Tippit would pull out empty shell casings and throw them down while running away, could that not be for the purpose of rapidly reloading--while running--in order to be able to have ability to use the pistol lethally again quickly if necessary?  

This is supposedly the same guy who picks up all the Carcano shells from the Shooting range each and every time...

what puzzles me are the different makes of bullets... I mean if this is a setup then why confuse the issue?  1 box of ammo does the job... as opposed to a dozen loose bullets of different make.

Any thoughts on that inconsistency?

[David Josephs]

On 9/11/2020 at 9:56 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Richard, I have to say I don't think DJ's being snarky, he's being factual.  He's been investigating the subject several years, you really should read his articles at https://kennedysandking.com/.  If you've not.  They are eye opening, if your open minded to the Truth. 

Thanks Ron.

[Richard Booth]

On 9/11/2020 at 6:13 PM, Tony Krome said:

Mr. FRITZ.  The only thing he said he had done wrong, "The only law I violated was in the show; I hit the officer in the show; he hit me in the eye and I guess I deserved it." He said, "That is the only law I violated." He said, "That is the only thing I have done wrong." 

 

At that point, you'd expect the Homicide Captain to explain to the suspect that attempting to shoot a police officer was also in violation of the law

I agree -- anyone who tried to murder a cop in front of other cops would catch an attempted murder charge real quick. If he actually had tried to murder a cop upon arrest I think that DPD would have leveraged that against him more than once: it would appear in his charges as attempted murder (and that didn't appear) and it would have surfaced during the interrogation multiple times. The evidence tends to indicate that this "tried to shoot a cop" was an after-the-fact fabrication.  

On 9/11/2020 at 9:56 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Richard, I have to say I don't think DJ's being snarky, he's being factual.  He's been investigating the subject several years, you really should read his articles at https://kennedysandking.com/.  If you've not.  They are eye opening, if your open minded to the Truth. 

I don't take any issue with who David is, and I have in fact read his articles as I wrote in this very thread in the very first post when I wrote "I am persuaded by ... David Josephs' postings"

What I took issue with is unnecessary language such as "if you could help me understand what non-DPD evidence suggests to you" after I had said (more than once) that there is no non-DPD evidence.  

So right there he was asking me for something which he knows full well doesn't exist, and he followed that up with "I sure would appreciate it" which is condescending. To me that is absolutely snarky, and it's the kind of thing a person says when they are more interested in quarreling than anything else 

In spite of folks' inclination to draw lines in the sand and delve into a quarrelsome mentality I believe that we have been able to find common ground on this subject with a minimum of the sort of argumentative posturing that I have zero tolerance for

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Richard Booth

[Richard Booth]

On 9/13/2020 at 7:36 AM, David Josephs said:

This is supposedly the same guy who picks up all the Carcano shells from the Shooting range each and every time...

what puzzles me are the different makes of bullets... I mean if this is a setup then why confuse the issue?  1 box of ammo does the job... as opposed to a dozen loose bullets of different make.

Any thoughts on that inconsistency?

David --

I think what this suggests is that two different guns fired by two different people killed officer Tippit. 

There are major problems with that crime scene, both with the different types of ammo and the fact that shell casings were found at all. Had Oswald been the killer he wouldn't dump shell casings on the ground from his revolver, and had he wanted to reload his revolver he would have pocketed the shell casings. You don't murder a cop and dump casings at the crime scene

The casings and wallet found point to a sloppy job of trying to incriminate Oswald and the different makes of bullets point to two different weapons firing upon the officer and causing his death.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Richard Booth

[Richard Booth]

On 9/12/2020 at 8:52 PM, Greg Doudna said:

Not disagreeing with you here, only asking a question: in explanation for why the killer of Tippit would pull out empty shell casings and throw them down while running away, could that not be for the purpose of rapidly reloading--while running--in order to be able to have ability to use the pistol lethally again quickly if necessary?  

Definitely not. Very easy to flip a revolver open and dump the casings in your hand. You would actually have to go out of your way to open your revolver and dump the casings onto the ground.

Reloading a revolver is cake: flip it open, grab your shells, and drop your rounds into it without any effort at all. Even if you're in a hurry you don't butterfingers the rounds all over the ground.

Maybe if a person were having an epileptic seizure while trying to reload a revolver ...  

 

[Tony Krome]

I think what this suggests is that two different guns fired by two different people killed officer Tippit. 

Correct.

The 10th Street shooter with the revolver fired Western Cartridges. That revolver ended up in the hands of McDonald for the "struggle" to relieve Oswald of a weapon he didn't possess.

The blunder was the later incorrect mix of cartridges.