Mannlicher-Carcano Clip

[Greg Doudna]

7 hours ago, Richard Booth said:

Definitely not. Very easy to flip a revolver open and dump the casings in your hand. You would actually have to go out of your way to open your revolver and dump the casings onto the ground.

Reloading a revolver is cake: flip it open, grab your shells, and drop your rounds into it without any effort at all. Even if you're in a hurry you don't butterfingers the rounds all over the ground.

Maybe if a person were having an epileptic seizure while trying to reload a revolver ...  

Could it be the casings were too hot to hold and that was the reason the shooter purposely let them drop to the ground when reloading in a hurry moments after the shooting? From a firearms site:

After you have fired the revolver, you will need to remove the spent shell casings from the cylinder. This works just like unloading the gun but with one little difference. Open the cylinder, transfer it to your non-dominant hand, and turn it upside down, but don’t try to catch the casings with your other hand. They’re going to be hot if you have just fired the gun, so simply let them fall to the ground. Some of the casings might fall out on their own, but probably not all of them. So use the palm of your dominant hand and strike the ejector rod once. Don’t be timid, but you don’t have to hit it with a lot of force, either. The ejector rod will force the remaining casings to fall to the ground. Now the cylinder is empty and you can point the muzzle back at the ground and load it up again if you want to keep shooting. (https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/how-to-use-a-revolver/)

[Richard Booth]

7 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Could it be the casings were too hot to hold and that was the reason the shooter purposely let them drop to the ground when reloading in a hurry moments after the shooting? From a firearms site:

After you have fired the revolver, you will need to remove the spent shell casings from the cylinder. This works just like unloading the gun but with one little difference. Open the cylinder, transfer it to your non-dominant hand, and turn it upside down, but don’t try to catch the casings with your other hand. They’re going to be hot if you have just fired the gun, so simply let them fall to the ground. Some of the casings might fall out on their own, but probably not all of them. So use the palm of your dominant hand and strike the ejector rod once. Don’t be timid, but you don’t have to hit it with a lot of force, either. The ejector rod will force the remaining casings to fall to the ground. Now the cylinder is empty and you can point the muzzle back at the ground and load it up again if you want to keep shooting. (https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/how-to-use-a-revolver/)

The casings would be hot if you tried to reload the pistol immediately after firing it -- I don't believe that happened though. I don't think any of the witnesses said they saw that happen. 

To my mind the shell casings and the wallet were obviously dumped at the scene like the MC rifle was a drop gun left on the 6th floor. If this were just the ordinary murder of a Dallas cop I might view the crime scene a little different. However, when you take into account all of the variables and analyze this situation knowing full well it's a conspiracy, things begin to look a bit different.

How this is looked at is probably tainted a great deal by whether or not a person believes a conspiracy or a LN account. 

 

[Larry Hancock]

Richard, do you or anyone else have any further comments on this...it seems particularly significant to me - part of the entire issue of why in the world Oswald would only have four rounds and where were the rest....and I've not seen it get that much attention. 

I'd be interested in more pro and con comments on this - seems to me it goes along with Alyea's point about the hulls being picked up and tossed back down...as if both the clip and hulls were indeed just planted. 

[David Josephs]

On 9/5/2020 at 10:05 PM, Richard Booth said:

The McAdams LN site has a page that derisively says writers have "huffed and puffed" about the Mannlicher-Carcano's clip being missing. The page includes a photo which shows the clip is inside the rifle when it's being carried by Lt. Day.

What McAdams' page fails to cover is this:

The clip holds six rounds. The rifle was found with one round inside of it, and 3 shell casings on the floor.

This indicates that the rifle's clip only had four rounds put into it.

Quote

Who fills an ammunition clip with only four rounds?

In addition, how come zero 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle ammunition was ever found by the FBI?  

John Armstrong writes:

"the ammunition clip had been loaded with only four cartridges instead of six .... but why load only 4 bullets into a rifle if you are going to kill the President? No other 6.5 mm cartridges were found in the Book Depository, nor on Oswald's person, nor among his possessions, nor at his rooming house, nor in Ruth Paine's garage, nor anywhere. Neither the Dallas Police nor FBI ever located an ammunition box or a receipt for the purchase of 6.5 mm ammunition."

This shows that some aspects of this plot were not well thought out. 

Had this been well thought out, that clip would have had two bullets still in it. Had this been well thought out, a box of ammo would have been recovered from Ruth Paine's garage.

This entire thing was a sloppy mess, starting with the murder weapon.

 

Going back to the original post's question.... which I highlighted above...

the answer remains "No One does.  That rifle and those bullet/hulls were props...  Evidence used to incriminate Oswald and only Oswald.  There were 3 shells on the floor and one in the rifle as there would be 3 shots and only 3 shots hitting JFK, then JC, then JFK again as the FBI virtually immediately concluded...  Then along came Tague.

The photo of DAY taking the rifle from the building shows it's not the same rifle in WCR evidence..
An literally nothing else supports the official story of his "weapons".    The WCR on the right with the rifle DAY takes on the left...  those "CAL.XXXX" letters should be easily seen on the image at left.  the photo on the right is the only one in all of existence which shows the caliber

Comparing to a 7.35mm FC - an almost identical rifle - That CAL mark does not appear to be "6.5"..

FWIW

As Ruth repeatedly insisted, there was no rifle loaded into her car or unloaded with Marina in Irving... she says 11 times NO RIFLE WAS SEEN or even hinted at.  Michael Paine draws it up as a shovel.  

If you accept he has a rifle when Marina and Ruth leave, there is nothing to suggest he was able to transport this rifle from Magazine St in two fairly small suitcases on a bus to and from Mexico? I've already proven that to be wrong...  So did he take it on his trip winding up at the Dallas YMCA on Oct 3rd?  No.

So before you keep associating that rifle with Oswald or why he would do this or that, I think it important to accept and understand that rifle and those bullets had nothing at all to do with the killing of JFK beyond acting as incriminating props.  

Thru my research it appears that Century International Arms (CIA) in Montreal had the June 1962 shipment of FC rifles, one with seriel # 2766...  in fact 6 or 7 rifles had the same numbers in the 700 rifle Century shipment as where in the 100 rifle Klein's shipment of Feb 63.   The FBI had concluded the night of the 22nd and 23rd that the records did NOT show a C2766 rifle shipped to Klein's but a N2766 in June 1962 and C2746 in March 63...

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-evidence-is-the-conspiracy-the-carbine-on-the-6th-floor  is in much greater detail as to the steps the FBI took to insure C2766 was associated with Klein's regardless of the fact the evidence strongly suggested otherwise.

There was no cartridge found on the 6th floor as the loading of the final bullet releases the clip... if a clip was even used when the hulls were fired from this rifle as evidence...  No clip and no paper bag in the SE corner of the TSBD... yet both turn up between the sixth floor and the ground floor 

 

Nothing connects the clip to the rifle except this note from DAY.

 

And no, there is no clip in the rifle, nor was there one jammed into the rifle after the fact...  much like Westbrook and the dual pistols, 4 shells in a clip of a rifle that was supposedly disassembled at some point and reassembled that day.  No clip was ever purchased when the only place to get 6.5mm Carcano supplies was at Thomas Masen's gun shop...  hmmmmm...

 

Boxes of Ammo were found: FBI D-79, and they also found the 4 lots of 6.5mm ammo... the CIA ordered the 4 production runs (Lots 6000-6004) yet as the memo (12/2/63 JEVONS to CONRAD) states, they do not fit any USMC weapons... FBI speculates it was a CIA order under cover of USMC.  These are the WESTERN shells.

There remains so many red herrings in every area of the case... the rifle and everything related is just such a red herring.

At least those are the conclusions to which my research has led me...

Take care
DJ

[Larry Hancock]

Thank you David,  I share exactly the same conclusions, just good to see you lay it out in your usual level of detail...and sourcing some FMJ Carcano ammo that Masen had not yet reloaded to soft points, a clip and even an rifle would not be that difficult I imagine. 

[David Josephs]

22 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Thank you David,  I share exactly the same conclusions, just good to see you lay it out in your usual level of detail...and sourcing some FMJ Carcano ammo that Masen had not yet reloaded to soft points, a clip and even an rifle would not be that difficult I imagine. 

My pleasure, will be reading your new book on my plane trip coming up...  can't hardly wait.

Here's that memo from Hoover to Rankin on Masen's hollow-point...  interesting how they have to explain around the C399 intact versus the headshot bullet which acts much like a hollow-point bullet....  so like the pistol, the rifle now is supposed to have had 2 types of rounds loaded?  Kinda doubt they'd mention that.  

 

 

[Richard Booth]

9 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Going back to the original post's question.... which I highlighted above...

the answer remains "No One does.  That rifle and those bullet/hulls were props... 

 

Amen. You raise excellent points here and provide ample material supporting your positions.

I was not aware of D-79 or the 4 boxes of ammo that were recovered. That was quite the surprise.

[Richard Booth]

On 9/14/2021 at 5:34 PM, Larry Hancock said:

Richard, do you or anyone else have any further comments on this...it seems particularly significant to me - part of the entire issue of why in the world Oswald would only have four rounds and where were the rest....and I've not seen it get that much attention. 

I'd be interested in more pro and con comments on this - seems to me it goes along with Alyea's point about the hulls being picked up and tossed back down...as if both the clip and hulls were indeed just planted. 

I just think it was incredibly sloppy. Three casings found on the floor, one bullet inside the rifle, makes four bullets. So this means we are to believe Oswald brought four bullets with him. 

Meanwhile anyone who uses firearms knows full well you fill a magazine.

My observations are simple ones. I'll leave the details to others, DJ did a good post concerning those details above. I remain fixated on the absurdity of finding "evidence" of four bullets and I can only fixate on what is missing from that equation: a full magazine.

The idea of Oswald frantically trying to put together a rifle using a dime, then loading four bullets into a MC magazine and trying to load that into the rifle ... it's comical.  If you watch Craig Roberts' video you will see why 4 bullets loaded into a MC magazine won't work, the way it's designed you need a full mag to even load it right. 

One thing that DJ did bring up that was new to me was D-79 (sounds like an FBI 302 number there), a documentary record of 4 boxes of ammo found. That surprised me, I was always under the impression Oswald did not have any ammo at all.

Meanwhile, the MSM productions on this case not only insist Oswald did it, but we're treated to fantasy stories from the likes of Patricia Johnson Macmillan -- stories about Oswald firing his rifle (see "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?") in the park at leaves or dry firing it on the porch. About as absurd and ridiculous as the idea of someone trying to put together a rifle with a dime and load that MC using only 4 bullets for the mag... Just outrageously absurd and preposterous. Did not happen. 

[Stu Wexler]

Given the topic, I wonder why more footnote in Meagher's book.

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

10 hours ago, David Josephs said:

My pleasure, will be reading your new book on my plane trip coming up...  can't hardly wait.

Here's that memo from Hoover to Rankin on Masen's hollow-point...  interesting how they have to explain around the C399 intact versus the headshot bullet which acts much like a hollow-point bullet....  so like the pistol, the rifle now is supposed to have had 2 types of rounds loaded?  Kinda doubt they'd mention that.  

 

 

David, since you inadvertently brought the subject up regarding "Oswald's" pistol (revolver), not to detract from "his" (Not) rifle . . .

I know you've discussed this in detail but for the benefit of others and to refresh my memory did his revolver come from:

a.  Seaport Traders - with no proof of delivery/evidence of being picked up.

b.  A pawn shop in Fort Worth as he allegedly said once during interrogation, if I remember right.

c.  Westbrook or one of the other arresting officers at the Texas Theater.  Which would mean he didn't have a revolver until after Tippit was shot.

Then was it a .38 or a .38 special.

But wait, the first reports were of "automatic" shells.  A witness saw him unloading the gun and throwing the shells down.  A semi automatic pistol uses a clip and ejects the shells after each shot.  One empties the shells from a revolver's cylinder to reload it.  Why didn't the WC say, huh?  Which was it?

Enjoy your flight, and Tipping Point.  I read it disjointedly over time and should re read it more focused, maybe take a few notes.  It's worth such, I do remember That much. 

 

[David Josephs]

17 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

David, since you inadvertently brought the subject up regarding "Oswald's" pistol (revolver), not to detract from "his" (Not) rifle . . .

I know you've discussed this in detail but for the benefit of others and to refresh my memory did his revolver come from:   The revolver ultimately placed into evidence was traced back to SEAPORT which traces back to Century Int'l Arms.  It was standard police issue .38 with special .38 rounds.  The revolver which makes it way thru Westbrook's office appears to be the one used to incriminate Oswald and relate back to Seaport, which was actually part of George Rose's businesses.   As others point out, if Oswald actually had a gun in hand pointed at a policeman in the theater, the charge of attempted murder of a police office was conveniently forgotten.  (iow, he probably did not have a gun with him at the theater.

a.  Seaport Traders - with no proof of delivery/evidence of being picked up.

b.  A pawn shop in Fort Worth as he allegedly said once during interrogation, if I remember right.  Hadn't heard this one - again, I don't see Oswald with a pistol - ever.  The BYP are not of Oswald's lower body.

c.  Westbrook or one of the other arresting officers at the Texas Theater.  Which would mean he didn't have a revolver until after Tippit was shot.  One of the most interesting that day... Westbrook and Croy.  My paper on the subject dives into how there were 2 distinct paths for the pistol with different sets of people  https://www.kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsPistol.pdf 

Then was it a .38 or a .38 special.

But wait, the first reports were of "automatic" shells. Lt Hill I believe makes that call - I am willing to accept given they were thrown from the spot of the shooting that he assumed they were ejected, ergo an automatic..  the shells are also different shapes from what I remember.   A witness saw him unloading the gun and throwing the shells down.  A semi automatic pistol uses a clip and ejects the shells after each shot.  One empties the shells from a revolver's cylinder to reload it.  Why didn't the WC say, huh?  Which was it?

Enjoy your flight, and Tipping Point.  I read it disjointedly over time and should re read it more focused, maybe take a few notes.  It's worth such, I do remember That much. 

Thanks for the well wishes Ron.  I'm able to add even more meat to the Mexico City bones of the fabricated buses et al...  should be in the garrison with a follow up article on getting back and how the FBI confirmed he was not there...

Kinda fun getting back into the swing of it.  I just still have so much from Malcom's collection I haven't gotten to yet....  Be working harder in retirement than at work.... 

Take care and talk soon

DJ.

 

 

[David Josephs]

20 hours ago, Richard Booth said:

One thing that DJ did bring up that was new to me was D-79 (sounds like an FBI 302 number there), a documentary record of 4 boxes of ammo found. That surprised me, I was always under the impression Oswald did not have any ammo at all.

The 4 lots: 6000-6003 with a 5th very small lot represented the order from the USMC (CIA) for ammo which did not fit any USMC weapons.  Total order was 4 million rounds w/20 cartridges to a box.

Below that is where D-79 mentions 2 Empty boxes of "6.5 Italian Ammunition".  I think this is to prove he was practicing... but then one wonders where the picked up shells are, as the Oswald at Sports Drome never left his shells.

FWIW

DJ