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Anyone care to disprove this throat shot scientific theory from the South Knoll?


Chris Barnard
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On 10/28/2020 at 11:04 PM, Chris Davidson said:

Triple-Overpass-2.png

This may help what Chris is pointing out.

Dealey-Plaza-From-The-Air-1967-TU-measur

This mapping of mine differs from what Adam Johnson says in this quote.

On 10/28/2020 at 9:51 PM, Adam Johnson said:

Taken Nov 25th 1963. Tell me again how someone standing 3,4 or 5 feet back from the overpass wall above right side of main or left side of commerce couldnt see the start of the overpass wall south knoll end.

Tell me how none of the 15 people on the overpass including 2 cops would not see someone with a rifle running back across the tracks towards the trinity river to get away. The trees were babys back then, the parking lot was open and visible, only parked cars provided cover....zoom in , please take a good close up look.

10001310.jpg

Contrary to Bell and Altgens there is other media that says that Foster and the railroad men were not above Elm Street and others above Main Street.  From another thread:

Altgens 7 and Bell show Officer J. W. Foster and about 10 railroad men on the bridge when the p. limo approaches and is about to go under the bridge.  These are fraudulent photos and frames.  Why?  Preponderance of the Evidence.  There are 8 other films and photos that show no one was on the bridge during the time of the assassination.  These are:

1.     The Jim Towner Photo

2.     The Weigman Film 

3.     The Bell Film- At the time the p. limo approaches the bridge an early Bell frame shows no one on the bridge, a few frames later shows 4 or perhaps 5 people there, and then a few frames later the same personnel as the Altgens 7 Photo.

4.     The Martin Film

5.     A Wilma Bond Photo

6.     The Couch Film

7.     The Paschall Film

8.     The Hughes film

With this information in mind the only person who could see if whether a person was crouched behind the angled railing on the south side of the bridge would be Officer J. C. White.  He said there was a long, slow freight train on the track going towards to railroad yards.  He would not have been able to see what went on there.  No one could.  

The McIntyre photos (one of 3 photos) show this train in the railroad yards as the p. limo speeds toward the Stemmons exit.  I will post this information in another thread shortly in a day or two.

From the evidence I will provide in the other thread there is good reason to suspect a train was on the Triple Underpass with it's last boxcars directly behind the South Knoll.  This freight train cleared the bridge by the time the p. limo was at the small exit sign for the Stemmons Freeway.  As it was slowly moving as described by Officer White it would not have taken long to reach a higher speed and be off the bridge and in the railroad yards as shown in McIntyre.

Then again one has to consider how slow was the slow freight train that Officer White described.  Was it a slow of 5mph or 20 mph?      

Edited by John Butler
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On 12/1/2020 at 2:44 AM, Matt Allison said:

This is a section enlargement from a photo that included the south knoll near the underpass corner, taken immediately after the shooting.

under tree.png

Is that a figure in a rimmed hat or am I seeing something else? Camo? 

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I am updating a previous post, it should be less confusing and makes a new point.
   The shooter possible locations for a 313 shot would have been limited by Greer and the window behind him. The red lines show the window of opportunity for a 313 shot from the South knoll. The shooter would have to be located where the yellow bar is between the red lines.  The shooter is further limited by the Franzens and the couple to their left because the bullet would be less than five feet off the ground when it passed them. The blue lines and bar represent the location at which the shooters line of sight would be blocked by the witnesses. So the shooter in the parking lot would have to be where the yellow bar is.
  But that position makes it impossible for the shooter to take both the 223 and 313 shots. From the position marked by the yellow bar the angle to the limo at 223 is over 20 degrees, closer to 25 degrees(Purple line). But the angle from the apparent bullet hole in the windshield to JFK's neck is only 15 degrees. A 22 degree angle would miss JFK and hit Connally's right side. It looks like a single shooter could never have taken both shots

 

Edited by Chris Bristow
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On 9/17/2020 at 7:41 AM, Chris Barnard said:

Indeed - both the vids are worth a watch if you have time. They cover both with the theory that one South Knoll shooter fired twice inflicting two wounds, one through the windshield and another through a gap that opened up. Its interesting when you consider the angle of the car, the cars position and where JFK is positioned/facing. Its like the Zapruder film plays a mind trick on you.  

I cannot get my head around the fact that a Hunter or trained assassin would purposely fire through an angled piece of toughened glass and still hope to maintain the accuracy required?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Ian Kingsbury said:

I cannot get my head around the fact that a Hunter or trained assassin would purposely fire through an angled piece of toughened glass and still hope to maintain the accuracy required?

Hi Ian.

The question is, can that be practiced and replicated, yielding a similar result each time (allowing for the curvature)?

I am not in any doubt that there is a front to back hole in the windscreen, which there have been a load of threads on here about, that does line up with the South Knoll concerning the throat shot. Should that shot have been a kill shot? As opposed to a throat wound that subdues JFK?

If you're wanting a relatively close shot (100m) and a very easy getaway undetected, it's a great venue, with cover. Was a lesser calibre bullet used because it would pass through and make less of a mess of the windscreen? 

Cheers

Chris

PS. I would assume snipers must have practiced assassinations through windows as some world leaders and targets would have only been accessible through vehicle windows and glass. If the weather hadn't cleared up, we may well have had the bubble-top on. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F117891934%40N07%2F35981138031&psig=AOvVaw1vjdF3muWpijJ7Tbfir6YE&ust=1623154588754000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCOjJu5fAhfECFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI
 

Edited by Chris Barnard
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Plots, angles and windshield crack aside, my two cents (FWIW) is that the fatal head shot originated from south of the Triple Underpass, most likely somewhere within the confines of the Terminal Annex building's parking lot. 

An ideal sniper location would be the south end atop the overpass, which affords the best pan angle on the limousine as it proceeded down Elm, with the greatest elevation over the limo's obstructions. It's a challenging shot, but is an excellent sniper location with favorable ingress/egress.  The ingress/egress aspect is what most convinces me, as that is a primary consideration by experts for this type of operation.  As I posted back in October 2018, making the shot is only half the objective, the other is escaping either undetected or without being molested. The military practice to overcome this obstacle is termed “Canyon Shoot”. This practice utilizes multiple snipers from locations suited to draw attention to those origins where they cannot be accessed, or by allowing the terrain to confuse the shot origin to the enemy present.

In addition to ideal egress, there are several other aspects that convince me of this shot location:

  1. The Umbrella and/or DCM (signal man) is facing towards those locations. The triangulated and simultaneous military-style ambush seems to be somehow coordinated by these two suspicious individuals.
  2. There were multiple shooting teams - and simultaneity was part of the plan - hence the use of timing techniques (i.e. hand signals)
  3. The brightness of the noonday sun above the South Knoll renders anyone looking in that direction (from the street or limousine) essentially blind to the whole area ... a classic sniper tactic
  4. A shooter firing from the TSBD would initially fire and the other shooters in the plaza would cue off the Depository shooter by startle reaction and fire a round immediately on top of the shot fired by the Depository shooter. By utilizing startle reaction to cue simultaneous fire from three locations, three shots could easily sound like one.
  5. A TSBD shooter would have initially been facing the President from the sixth floor when the presidential limousine rounded the corner ... yet he allegedly waited, and took the more difficult shot from behind (which on face makes no sense). That delay and longer shot range from the rear was obviously part of a triangulated ambush, with shooters on the Knolls (North and South) able to use the overpass railroad tracks for escape routes. 
  6. Such a positioning of the President's limousine for the kill shot would appear to be associated with Abraham Zapruder's camera POV, as well the expected echo distortion.  

Gene

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On 11/17/2020 at 6:54 AM, John Butler said:

This may help what Chris is pointing out.

Dealey-Plaza-From-The-Air-1967-TU-measur

This mapping of mine differs from what Adam Johnson says in this quote.

Contrary to Bell and Altgens there is other media that says that Foster and the railroad men were not above Elm Street and others above Main Street.  From another thread:

Altgens 7 and Bell show Officer J. W. Foster and about 10 railroad men on the bridge when the p. limo approaches and is about to go under the bridge.  These are fraudulent photos and frames.  Why?  Preponderance of the Evidence.  There are 8 other films and photos that show no one was on the bridge during the time of the assassination.  These are:

1.     The Jim Towner Photo

2.     The Weigman Film 

3.     The Bell Film- At the time the p. limo approaches the bridge an early Bell frame shows no one on the bridge, a few frames later shows 4 or perhaps 5 people there, and then a few frames later the same personnel as the Altgens 7 Photo.

4.     The Martin Film

5.     A Wilma Bond Photo

6.     The Couch Film

7.     The Paschall Film

8.     The Hughes film

With this information in mind the only person who could see if whether a person was crouched behind the angled railing on the south side of the bridge would be Officer J. C. White.  He said there was a long, slow freight train on the track going towards to railroad yards.  He would not have been able to see what went on there.  No one could.  

The McIntyre photos (one of 3 photos) show this train in the railroad yards as the p. limo speeds toward the Stemmons exit.  I will post this information in another thread shortly in a day or two.

From the evidence I will provide in the other thread there is good reason to suspect a train was on the Triple Underpass with it's last boxcars directly behind the South Knoll.  This freight train cleared the bridge by the time the p. limo was at the small exit sign for the Stemmons Freeway.  As it was slowly moving as described by Officer White it would not have taken long to reach a higher speed and be off the bridge and in the railroad yards as shown in McIntyre.

Then again one has to consider how slow was the slow freight train that Officer White described.  Was it a slow of 5mph or 20 mph?      

Were Atari in on this? :-) 

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12 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Plots, angles and windshield crack aside, my two cents (FWIW) is that the fatal head shot originated from south of the Triple Underpass, most likely somewhere within the confines of the Terminal Annex building's parking lot. 

An ideal sniper location would be the south end atop the overpass, which affords the best pan angle on the limousine as it proceeded down Elm, with the greatest elevation over the limo's obstructions. It's a challenging shot, but is an excellent sniper location with favorable ingress/egress.  The ingress/egress aspect is what most convinces me, as that is a primary consideration by experts for this type of operation.  As I posted back in October 2018, making the shot is only half the objective, the other is escaping either undetected or without being molested. The military practice to overcome this obstacle is termed “Canyon Shoot”. This practice utilizes multiple snipers from locations suited to draw attention to those origins where they cannot be accessed, or by allowing the terrain to confuse the shot origin to the enemy present.

In addition to ideal egress, there are several other aspects that convince me of this shot location:

  1. The Umbrella and/or DCM (signal man) is facing towards those locations. The triangulated and simultaneous military-style ambush seems to be somehow coordinated by these two suspicious individuals.
  2. There were multiple shooting teams - and simultaneity was part of the plan - hence the use of timing techniques (i.e. hand signals)
  3. The brightness of the noonday sun above the South Knoll renders anyone looking in that direction (from the street or limousine) essentially blind to the whole area ... a classic sniper tactic
  4. A shooter firing from the TSBD would initially fire and the other shooters in the plaza would cue off the Depository shooter by startle reaction and fire a round immediately on top of the shot fired by the Depository shooter. By utilizing startle reaction to cue simultaneous fire from three locations, three shots could easily sound like one.
  5. A TSBD shooter would have initially been facing the President from the sixth floor when the presidential limousine rounded the corner ... yet he allegedly waited, and took the more difficult shot from behind (which on face makes no sense). That delay and longer shot range from the rear was obviously part of a triangulated ambush, with shooters on the Knolls (North and South) able to use the overpass railroad tracks for escape routes. 
  6. Such a positioning of the President's limousine for the kill shot would appear to be associated with Abraham Zapruder's camera POV, as well the expected echo distortion.  

Gene

Great points. 

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20 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Plots, angles and windshield crack aside, my two cents (FWIW) is that the fatal head shot originated from south of the Triple Underpass, most likely somewhere within the confines of the Terminal Annex building's parking lot. 

An ideal sniper location would be the south end atop the overpass, which affords the best pan angle on the limousine as it proceeded down Elm, with the greatest elevation over the limo's obstructions. It's a challenging shot, but is an excellent sniper location with favorable ingress/egress.  The ingress/egress aspect is what most convinces me, as that is a primary consideration by experts for this type of operation.  As I posted back in October 2018, making the shot is only half the objective, the other is escaping either undetected or without being molested. The military practice to overcome this obstacle is termed “Canyon Shoot”. This practice utilizes multiple snipers from locations suited to draw attention to those origins where they cannot be accessed, or by allowing the terrain to confuse the shot origin to the enemy present.

In addition to ideal egress, there are several other aspects that convince me of this shot location:

  1. The Umbrella and/or DCM (signal man) is facing towards those locations. The triangulated and simultaneous military-style ambush seems to be somehow coordinated by these two suspicious individuals.
  2. There were multiple shooting teams - and simultaneity was part of the plan - hence the use of timing techniques (i.e. hand signals)
  3. The brightness of the noonday sun above the South Knoll renders anyone looking in that direction (from the street or limousine) essentially blind to the whole area ... a classic sniper tactic
  4. A shooter firing from the TSBD would initially fire and the other shooters in the plaza would cue off the Depository shooter by startle reaction and fire a round immediately on top of the shot fired by the Depository shooter. By utilizing startle reaction to cue simultaneous fire from three locations, three shots could easily sound like one.
  5. A TSBD shooter would have initially been facing the President from the sixth floor when the presidential limousine rounded the corner ... yet he allegedly waited, and took the more difficult shot from behind (which on face makes no sense). That delay and longer shot range from the rear was obviously part of a triangulated ambush, with shooters on the Knolls (North and South) able to use the overpass railroad tracks for escape routes. 
  6. Such a positioning of the President's limousine for the kill shot would appear to be associated with Abraham Zapruder's camera POV, as well the expected echo distortion.  

Gene

I also put a lot of weight on the ingress/egress issue. If they fired from a covered truck parked at the North most section they would have perfect cover and immediate egress. I think egress would be such and important factor that theories about assassins in the storm drains have no merit.
 I think the simultaneous shots from different assassins runs into a problem with the head shot. Because JFK had leaned way over and down the only moment a south knoll gunman had to fire the head shot is when JFK was visible between the side window and Greer. That was a short window around 313. Only the gunman would know when it lined up so a person in another location could not give the signal to fire. The window was limited by the Franzen family who were no more than 5 feet from the bullets path at 313. By frame 318 they would be in the way. The bullet would have been less than 5 feet off the ground when it did pass or hit them.
I think it is possible 2 shooters firing shots in the same small time span may just randomly have near simultaneous shots. Especially the head shot because they were running out of time by then. also if the limo did "Stop or almost completely stop" a second before the head shot as so many said, that would be the  best moment for the last  shots.
 Unless the Z film has been altered there was no shot from either of the north grassy knoll positions. And if the Z film was altered and there was actually a shot from the north knoll then the shot from the south knoll would be impossible. His head was either 25 degrees left of profile from Z allowing for the south knoll shot, or it was facing to the right allowing the North knoll shot.

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11 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

Great points. 

Chris: is there any link to Part 1 to the The South Knoll Gunman? I only found a link to Part 2. I would be grateful for posting the link to Part 1, if possible. Thank you.

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On 9/18/2020 at 4:22 AM, Ron Bulman said:

 

What I still had a problem with regarding a head shot is back and to JFK's left from the impact which blew out the right rear of his head from this angle, the physics don't work for me. They do from behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll to JFK's right.

The throat shot has long intrigued me in where did it come from.  A smaller caliber than the head shot, it didn't blow out the back of his neck.  Not from the same gun. Both of these shots from the grassy knoll, side by side, spaced somewhat apart, two shooters?  Nothing points to this.  But the 4-5-6 mm wound observed at Parkland by multiple doctors does.

Could it have come from the South knoll?  A 22 would fit the bill regarding the wound but what about the range?  I guessed the distance at close to 100 yards just eyeballing it.  I've never tried any shots with a 22 at over about maybe 40-50 yards at squirrels and rabbits.  Googling says sighting in at 75.  But, up to 150 from an expert is possible.  Well within the range.

Hi Ron, I noticed your post and have a possible answer to your 'problem'. You are assuming the head snap is a genuine reaction. For me I can see it aligning with two effects:  Firstly the braking of the car(forward motion 312), and secondly the (unseen) reaction of JFK to Kellerman's alleged instantaneous acceleration (backward motion at extant 313/314). Thus Kennedy's actual reaction may align more with the direction of car travel, and changes in velocity than shot direction. 

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6 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Chris: is there any link to Part 1 to the The South Knoll Gunman? I only found a link to Part 2. I would be grateful for posting the link to Part 1, if possible. Thank you.

Hi Andrej, the youtube channel is called ‘Alek Hidell’, you can find all if the videos uploaded on this link. 

https://youtube.com/channel/UCjlKkXYs8s28XF5_cP8VFKQ

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I appreciate the feedback from both Chris Bristow and Chris Barnard ... I do like the idea of keeping it as simple as possible.   Given special (experienced) shooters, their #1 priority would be ingress/egress.   I see everything else as lesser details.  And the South Knoll/bridge location affords that opportunity.   

As previously posted, another sniper consideration (as far as that shooting vantage) is that the shooter didn't have to re-aim ...  he can fire off several shots.  Perhaps it was a silenced weapon, but it’s only about 60 yards away, which is a sure shot for an experienced marksman.  Furthermore, Harry Holmes had his office in the Annex Building (and he was assuredly complicit).  Then there's O'Hare and Robertson strolling across the lawn shortly thereafter (aka the "sweepers"). 

This shooter location solves many questions. It was the best location to assure a kill, with the School Book Depository a diversion ... a good place for red herrings to be observed by witnesses.

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