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58 minutes ago, Mark Stevens said:

For whatever it is worth... 

I've never done that type of background on him but I did personally know him when I was younger. 

I guess he retired to my hometown, I saw that on an episode of the old TV show "Top Cops." Based on the time frame I believe it aired around the 30th anniversary. Even at a young age I had deep admiration for JFK and after seeing that episode I wanted to talk to the person who arrested Oswald. I contacted him and was to meet and talk with him about his experience and I put it into a report for school. 

After that I continued to visit with him until a few years before his death. For some reason he took a shining to me and I would visit him and his wife often. 

Due to my experience with McDonald I'm doubtful of him having any real involvement with anything like planting a weapon on Oswald. 

Interesting. I never heard of any claims about anyone planting a gun on Oswald. Did that include slipping unused bullets in his pocket as well? Mark, did you ever see or get any feel for McDonald's personal views on JFK, right wing political groups or sentiment, his racial sentiments, etc? 

When researchers discovered how many DPD officers were not just sympathetic to the JFK hating right wing philosophy but actually members of groups like that and the same with JFK hating segregationist groups including the KKK, it is reasonable to look at them with at least a little suspicion imo.

And especially DPD personnel who personally knew and interacted with Jack Ruby for years. Big "Blackie" Harrison was one of the closest Ruby knowing DPD officers for several years going back to the Vegas Club.

Isn't it incredibly coincidental that Ruby just happened to be hiding behind his police buddy Harrison "withing inches" just before he popped around Harrison to get within inches of Oswald to get such a close range can't miss shot into Oswald's gut?

I just find this Harrison/Ruby inches apart close location scenario more than coincidental.

Can you say for sure and with confidence where McDonald stood on these points of personal political leanings?

I can accept McDonald as being just an innocent average no suspicion person in the whole affair. Just curious about him no more than any DPD officer who ended up closely interacting with Oswald in the most dramatic times by simple fate or otherwise.

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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6 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Curious, what could this Joe Molina have said or done in the "years" that the DPD ( and one would assume other police agencies like the FBI ) that made him an officially listed and watched threat before and up to JFK's visit?

My guess is someone would have to have said or done something quite dramatic in some extreme political context to be put on such an exclusive ( only one person the the entire Dallas/Fort Worth area ) and important list?

Were Molina's activities any more suspect or threatening than Oswald's Russia defection and his very public ( downtown New Orleans ) pro-Castro leaflet passing and his NO radio and TV appearances where he advocates for Cuba and proclaims is a Marxist?

Oswald's Russian newspaper prescriptions were known by the FBI. They were monitoring him and Marina for months in Irving and even had a file on him that apparently contained something so sensitive that they destroyed it the day or day after Oswald was eliminated by Jackie Kennedy avenging and sometime DPD and FBI informant Jack Ruby.

What did monitoring Joe Molina because he was on Curry's JFK threat list involve?

Thanks Joe, I was about to ask many of these same questions.

I've read a few things about Molina but nothing I can remember which had any real importance. I do believe a current member "personally" knew him (could be another TSBD employee) and worked with him some years after the assassination (was mentioned on some recent thread). 

I am curious to his background and what exactly he may have done to end up on a "subversive list." I'm more curious as to why, if it was known by the local authorities that this known subversive worked on the parade route, then why was he not spoken to before the assassination? Why was his whereabouts unaccounted for if he was a possible risk, and worked on the parade route?

I believe I have read other accounts that stated all known subversives were under watch before the parade and their whereabouts could be accounted for. If that is correct it wouldn't mesh with what Curry has said about this subversive being basically unaccounted for. Maybe I'm confusing that for Communists, or something else though.

Anyone have any information on Molina and what he may have done in 1955 to end up on a subversive list? Was it simply his membership in the G.I. Forum and FBI investigations related to that organization?

 

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What more could Oswald have done to get on this list?

Speaking of clippings of the JFK event, without even doing a serious study review of perhaps hundreds of first and second day newspaper articles all across America, and international ones, just from the dozens I have looked at, it's incredible how scattered they are in conflicted story and reported detail facts.

It was a great expose of how reporting of major events can be so wrongly recounted especially in the immediate rush to get the scoop out.

Sure adds real life weight to the old Edgar Allen Poe saying... "Don't believe anything you hear...and half what you see."

In this case "read."

 

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7 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Interesting. I never heard of any claims about anyone planting a gun on Oswald. Did that include slipping unused bullets in his pocket as well? Mark, did you ever see or get any feel for McDonald's personal views on JFK, right wing political groups or sentiment, his racial sentiments, etc? 

When researchers discovered how many DPD officers were not just sympathetic to the JFK hating right wing philosophy but actually members of groups like that and the same with JFK hating segregationist groups including the KKK, it is reasonable to look at them with at least a little suspicion imo.

And especially DPD Personnel who personally knew and interacted with Jack Ruby for years. Big "Blackie" Harrison was one of the closest Ruby knowing DPD officers for several years going back to the Vegas Club.

Isn't it incredibly coincidental that Ruby just happened to be hiding behind Harrison "withing inches" just before he popped around Harrison to get within Inches of Oswald to get such a close range can't miss shot into Oswald's gut?

I just find this Harrison/Ruby inches apart close location scenario more than coincidental.

Can you say for sure and with confidence where McDonald stood on these points of personal political leanings?

I can accept McDonald as being just an innocent average no suspicion person in the whole affair. Just curious about him no more than any DPD officer who ended up closely interacting with Oswald in the most dramatic times by simple fate or otherwise.

 

I've heard a number of claims regarding McDonald, I can't recall who believes he planted the gun on Oswald but it's member(s) here.

I met McDonald when I was 12 and didn't see him or speak with him again after I was 15 and I probably saw him around 20 times in that time span. I honestly can't remember much about his overall personality or even many details of our discussions and time together. The main things which sit with me is how "starstruck" I was by him. For me he was a genuine celebrity and I felt he was an important person in history. The other is how this moment seemed to really define his life. Very much an old memory/impression but I remember feeling like this event was the singular most important event in his life and it did bring him some kind of "pleasure" to be involved with something that important. I am certain he relayed the story of the snap and the hammer hitting his thumb though. He either believed this happened, or was so comfortable by this point telling this story that he was able to do it quite convincingly. I definitely walked away feeling like Oswald tried to murder him and he was lucky to be alive.

Again, I was a young teen during this time and my conspiratorial views had not really taken shape yet. I didn't look at much of anything he said with any real suspicion or scrutiny. By the time I had "real" questions for him and thought to look him up (10 years later), he had already passed. 

While I do believe he could have made changes to his story to help shore up the case against Oswald, I don't think he planted evidence or was otherwise involved.

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22 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

I definitely walked away feeling like Oswald tried to murder him and he was lucky to be alive.

Why would Oswald attempt to shoot a police officer in the theatre?

 

I'm not meaning to say he did.

What I'm saying is McDonald believed this to be true, at least in my opinion. I didn't get the impression he was just telling a story, he really believed this happened.

Either that, or after telling the story for 30 years he got good at telling it.

Based on his ability to relay this story and the emotion he told it with, I walked away with that impression. Then again, I was 12.

If I were to hear the story today for the first time, I don't know if I'd have the same impression.

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Either that, or after telling the story for 30 years he got good at telling it.

I'd say that is more likely.

While Oswald was sitting in the theatre, the weapon used on 10th, was heading in his direction.

 

 

Edited by Tony Krome
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1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

What did the DPD's monitoring of Joe Molina involve?

Joe,

On February 5, 1964, Jack Revill, Lieutenant of the Criminal Intelligence Section of the Special Service Bureau, wrote a memo to Captain W.P. Gannaway. In this memo he said that 13 organizations had been placed under surveillance following the announcement of JFK’s visit to Dallas. One of those organizations was the American GI Forum. Joe Molina was its President.

image.thumb.png.b650b56b75f4d6731bcaad275959bba4.png

Warren Commission Exhibit 2003, located in (24H259) is a list submitted to Captain Gannaway through Lieutenant Jack Revill of Texas School Book Depository employees. It is dated November 22, 1963. Heading that list is Harvey Lee Oswald at 605 Elsbeth. Page 3 of CE 2003, found on page 260, is signed by R.W. Westphal, Detective, Criminal Intelligence Section and P.M. Parks, Detective, Administrative Section. R.W. Westphal and P.M. Parks were both Detectives in the Special Service Bureau.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=277&tab=page

Though that list of employees is dated 11/22/63, in Westphal's interview with Larry Sneed in No More Silence, he talks about going home, and then returning to his office at the Fairgrounds to write up his report of a man at the Trade Mart with a “Free Cuba” flag. So, I'm not sure what time of the evening that list was actually typed up. While he was writing his Report, Captain Gannaway called and asked him to check the names of the TSBD employees against the Department's Intelligence files. Westphal said, “We had handwritten, partial lists; some of them, you couldn't read the names”.

Westphal did recognize the name of one man, Joe Molina however. Gannaway instructed Westphal to “bring the entire file down to his office”

https://books.google.com/books?id=7uT-47ysB5MC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=Dallas+"+Roy+Westphal"&source=bl&ots=eii6yRhLo8&sig=nr0C2_dukxaBfdcQiFnDLg3ugKM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt-9Xpi8nRAhVpwFQKHZBBDX0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Dallas " Roy Westphal"&f=false

If you do a search in the Forum, you will find lots of discussion of the American GI Forum and Joe Molina. The GI Forum was suspected of being Communist.

Steve Thomas

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58 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

I definitely walked away feeling like Oswald tried to murder him and he was lucky to be alive.

Why would Oswald attempt to shoot a police officer in the theatre?

 

Well before McDonald physically confronted Oswald there were several officers besides just him present and converging on the upper seating area where Oswald could clearly see this.

Oswald ( even in an all out panic) must have had some cognitive awareness that by pulling his gun and blasting McDonald, that this would have resulted in his being blown apart by these other officers.

One has to consider Oswald's gun pulling and firing action was a suicidal one in Oswald's mind.

Yet, if you accept this Oswald mind set premise, you have to then consider why Oswald would even go to the lengths he did to save himself and protect himself in the one and a half hours after the Dealey Plaza shooting and right up to the theater confrontation.

Why not just sit and stay in his TXSBD 6th floor sniper's perch and let his suicidal expectations play out when the police came up with guns drawn?

Oswald's self-preservation motivation escaping and running actions in this time period are in logic conflict with his suicidal one in the theater...imo.

 

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18 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Joe,

On February 5, 1964, Jack Revill, Lieutenant of the Criminal Intelligence Section of the Special Service Bureau, wrote a memo to Captain W.P. Gannaway. In this memo he said that 13 organizations had been placed under surveillance following the announcement of JFK’s visit to Dallas. One of those organizations was the American GI Forum. Joe Molina was its President.

image.thumb.png.b650b56b75f4d6731bcaad275959bba4.png

Warren Commission Exhibit 2003, located in (24H259) is a list submitted to Captain Gannaway through Lieutenant Jack Revill of Texas School Book Depository employees. It is dated November 22, 1963. Heading that list is Harvey Lee Oswald at 605 Elsbeth. Page 3 of CE 2003, found on page 260, is signed by R.W. Westphal, Detective, Criminal Intelligence Section and P.M. Parks, Detective, Administrative Section. R.W. Westphal and P.M. Parks were both Detectives in the Special Service Bureau.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=277&tab=page

Though that list of employees is dated 11/22/63, in Westphal's interview with Larry Sneed in No More Silence, he talks about going home, and then returning to his office at the Fairgrounds to write up his report of a man at the Trade Mart with a “Free Cuba” flag. So, I'm not sure what time of the evening that list was actually typed up. While he was writing his Report, Captain Gannaway called and asked him to check the names of the TSBD employees against the Department's Intelligence files. Westphal said, “We had handwritten, partial lists; some of them, you couldn't read the names”.

Westphal did recognize the name of one man, Joe Molina however. Gannaway instructed Westphal to “bring the entire file down to his office”

https://books.google.com/books?id=7uT-47ysB5MC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=Dallas+"+Roy+Westphal"&source=bl&ots=eii6yRhLo8&sig=nr0C2_dukxaBfdcQiFnDLg3ugKM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt-9Xpi8nRAhVpwFQKHZBBDX0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Dallas " Roy Westphal"&f=false

If you do a search in the Forum, you will find lots of discussion of the American GI Forum and Joe Molina. The GI Forum was suspected of being Communist.

Steve Thomas

Fabulous! Thank you Steve.

What a great documentation source you are.

And to do so in such quick time frames ... so forum enhancing and appreciated.

Question ... was Oswald placed on this threat list that Curry referred to before 11,22,1963? Was he placed on this the very day of 11,22,1963?

Curry said they only had "one" TXSBD employee on this list up to 11,22,1963 - Joe Molina.

Edited by Joe Bauer
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11 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Question ... was Oswald placed on this threat list that Curry referred to before 11,22,1963? Was he placed on this the very day of 11,22,1963?

Curry said they only had "one" TXSBD employee on this list up to 11,22,1963 - Joe Molina.

Joe,

The list of employees (CE 2003) is arranged in three columns. The first column is an employee name. Some names are misspelled. The third column had their address and phone number. The second column is headed, “REF.INT.” Almost all of the names in that column have the word, “NONE” in that entry. Two names: Joe Molina and Mrs. J.E. Dean (Ruth Dean) have the letters, “INT” and a number. I believe that these are people who were listed in the Police Department's Intelligence Files, as described by Roy Westphal to Larry Sneed. And V.J. Brian in his WC testimony.

If what I believe is true, I noted a couple of things:

  1. Lee Harvey Oswald was not in the DPD Intelligence Files

  2. Charles Givens, who had a record of narcotic arrests; and as such, would fall under the purview of the Special Service Bureau is listed as NONE. Is this possibly an indication that Givens was an undercover informant to the Criminal Intelligence Section of the Special Service Bureau?

Astounding as it appears to be, it seems to me that the Intelligence Section of the DPD had organizations under surveillance, but not specific individuals.

Chief Curry, Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Revill all told the WC that the DPD had no knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and had no idea that he was living in Dallas.

I actually believe them.

There was, however, a Harvey Lee Oswald in their files. His last known address was Elsbeth. No information about Neely, or N. Beckley, or Oswald's activities in New Orleans in the summer.

You have to ask where that record came from.

Steve Thomas

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3 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Curious, what could this Joe Molina have said or done in the "years" that the DPD ( and one would assume other police agencies like the FBI ) made him an officially listed and watched threat before and up to JFK's visit?

My guess is someone would have to have said or done something quite dramatic in some extreme political context to be put on such an exclusive ( only one person the the entire Dallas/Fort Worth area ? ) and important JFK threat list?

Were Molina's activities any more suspect or threatening than Oswald's Russia defection and his very public ( downtown New Orleans ) pro-Castro leaflet passing and his N.O. radio and TV appearances where he advocates for Cuba and proclaims is a Marxist?

Oswald's Russian newspaper prescriptions were known by the FBI. They were monitoring him and Marina for months in Irving and even had a file on him that apparently contained something so sensitive that they destroyed it the day or day after Oswald was eliminated by Jackie Kennedy avenging and sometime DPD and FBI informant Jack Ruby.

What did the DPD's monitoring of Joe Molina involve?

someone would have to have said or done something quite dramatic in some extreme political context to be put on such an exclusive 

Molina was just an ordinary leftist. At that time simply being a progressive leftist meant you were a "subversive." He was also Hispanic and that plays a factor too. 

Molina was by my estimation nowhere even close to Oswald: no leafleting, no defection, he was simply guilty of being to the left, in the South, in 1963.

He was a member of the American GI Forum which was an organization for veterans which had a large contingent of Hispanic members and this is what caused him to be labeled a "subversive"

http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/joe-molina/

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11821#relPageId=5&tab=page

He lost his job at TSBD due to all this, and DPD went to his house the evening of 11/22 and searched it.

Sounds like the guy's life was ruined merely because he belonged to a veterans group. Sad really. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

 

Officially, Baker's 3rd or 4th floor man evolved into the 2nd floor Oswald encounter ... and Sawyer's witness was never identified.

 

 

 

I like Bill Simpich's conclusion in State Secret: Sawyer's witness was part of the conspiracy, he was a nondescript white man whose job was to go tell the police Oswald's description to get it on the radio, and that this description probably came from the files on Oswald. 

As you illustrated with that military intelligence file, this description of 5 foot 10, 165 pounds was all over the files, military and CIA. 

Of course it's very sloppy because Oswald was about 5 foot 9, 130 pounds. However the plotters were going off the information they had which, to what was available to them, that information said the guy was 5 foot 10 165 so that's what they went with. 

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2 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Why would Oswald attempt to shoot a police officer in the theatre?

That's a good question.  He didn't.  When almost all people tell the story of Oswald and McDonald's confrontation they leave out the interesting part.  Oswald punched and knocked McDonald to the floor.

And, in him doing that one has to ask the question "If Oswald had the time to knock McDonald to the floor then why didn't he shoot him"?  Oh, the gun misfired.  That's rich, too.  A perfectly operable gun at the Tippit shooting becomes inoperable at the theater.

Oswald was considered a dangerous and violent suspect and would have to be to controlled by big professional policeman because of the McDonald event.

Look at what is going on in this photo:

lho-8-a.jpg

With these bruisers nearby Oswald was not going to get away with anything.

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7 hours ago, John Butler said:

Well, IMO there has never been an adequate motive for Tippit being killed. 

I think there are a few reasons for that. The primary suspect was categorized as a malcontent, and if you can link him to the murder of a police officer you have not only showed your suspect is homicidal but you've also guaranteed that the DPD is bloodthirsty for this suspect. The DPD didn't care about JFK being shot. A police officer is quoted saying that Dallas police viewed JFK being shot as "no different than a South Dallas n-word murder"

However, you shoot and kill one of their own and now all of a sudden the cops want to nail this suspect to the wall.

So there are a few reasons for the Tippit murder, all of them tied to framing the suspect and putting Dallas Police in the frame of mind you want them in.

Look to the WC and LN folks and their position: they will all tell you that "obviously Oswald killed JFK, because he killed the police officer." That's why the cop-murder was part of the script, it makes your perp look absolutely guilty. "He was fleeing the police" or "he knew he was guilty" -- all that comes with the cop murder. 

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