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JFK's Limo Windshield from National Archives---No Holes Barred


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3 hours ago, David Josephs said:

The opposite John.   McHugh was removed from where he usually sits... which would have been in the way of a southern thru windshield shot...

Imagine on right is his usual spot...

David,

Thanks for the correction.  A shot from the South Knoll at Z225 as calculated by Chris Barnard and Chris Bristow is possible with a 15 degree angle.

Edited by John Butler
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19 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

David,

What's the yellow line? It's not the path of the limo, is it? It doesn't match up with the kill spot (the confluence of the red arrows.)

Just to my eyeballs, the best straight-on shot would seem to be from the south side of the overpass, rather than the South Knoll. (But that does not rule it out.)

If firing from the south side of the overpass, could a sniper shoot over (rather than through) the windshield and hit the president? I honestly don't know - is such a shot possible?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dealey+Plaza/@32.7781361,-96.809435,25a,35y,33.75h,71.46t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xcfa47bf25b709fe0!8m2!3d32.7788184!4d-96.8082993

 

That would be midline of JFK's head showing the direction he was facing.

The Top of the rail on the overpass is 428.4ft...  Top of JFK's head as it enters the Killzone was 420ft and getting lower as it moves forward... (front bumper is 1.2ft lower than the rear bumper due to Elm's 18:1 foot run/rise)

Over the windshield was surely possible, depending on exactly where a shooter was....  the Cancellare photo gives a good look...  and I did this composite to show the entire thing...  certain parts of that south knoll have the limo coming straight at it...

1179673768_overpassandsouthknollcomposite.thumb.jpg.80cbd955a2c1ee64f80cf510326fc8d4.jpg

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9 minutes ago, John Butler said:

David,

Thanks for the correction.  A shot from the South Knoll at Z225 as calculated by Chris Barnard and Chris Bristow is possible with a 15 degree angle.

Hey there John...

Looking at Altgens' famous photo #6, there are no marks on the windshield... yet.
Altgens 7 does show the windshield cracked... so it has to happen much later than z225

916355806_windshieldcrackAltgens7-smaller.jpg.25f76553e6a1dc53566ad365563d6bd4.jpg

 

1318863571_Altgens6lookinginalldirections.thumb.jpg.467ffd04a85def71901b9d39b2667202.jpg

940267009_altgens7-whatwascropped.thumb.jpg.04d36d7a9253d75efd3ef8cbb8329e1c.jpg

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2 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Looking at Altgens' famous photo #6, there are no marks on the windshield... yet.
Altgens 7 does show the windshield cracked... so it has to happen much later than z225

David,

I took this to be the original windshield in Altgens 6 and the other provided by the WC was a replacement windshield with cracks and no shot through the windshield.  Many witnesses saw a through and through hole as it is said to be.

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9 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

The height relationship between the rear view mirror and JFK's throat was a constant, until such time that JFK physically moved. Laterally, move a shooter where-ever you so desire and position the limo on Elm, accordingly.

 

Chris,

I have been waiting to hear from you.  Sensible comment suggesting there is much variation and a problem that may not be solvable.

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Just now, John Butler said:

David,

I took this to be the original windshield in Altgens 6 and the other provided by the WC was a replacement windshield with cracks and no shot through the windshield.  Many witnesses saw a through and through hole as it is said to be.

Both 6 & 7 show the "original" windshield while still on the limo...

I agree there were many witnesses who saw a hole, I posted their statements, what I'm saying is that by z255 (or there abouts) - Altgens 6 - there is not yet a cracked windshield.  In 7 there is so it must happen between the frames z-numbered 255 - 375...

 

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Here is some foolishness of mine.  A 15 degree angle from the throat wound to the windshield.  There is also a 3 degree rise as calculated by Chris Bristow.  And, if you add a 3 degree fall off for the slope downhill on hill you will have 6 degrees between the two.

A shot from the railroad bridge to Z frame 2 would not be possible since it would be from about 52 feet in the air.

2 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

I agree there were many witnesses who saw a hole, I posted their statements, what I'm saying is that by z255 (or there abouts) - Altgens 6 - there is not yet a cracked windshield.  In 7 there is so it must happen between the frames z-numbered 255 - 375...

David,

I get it.  There must have been something else hit the windshield after Altgens 6.

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1 minute ago, John Butler said:

David,

I get it.  There must have been something else hit the windshield after Altgens 6.

zframe 2?

What's up John?  No crack in Altgens 6... crack at the exact spot in Altgens 7....

Crack/Hole must occur between the 2 photos...  nothing else hits the windshield except blood and debris.

The replacement of the windshield occurs after the limo is in DC....

:huh:

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As I looked at that Cancellare/Altgens photo montage, I realized how little cover there was on the South Knoll - less than that on the Grassy Knoll. That doesn't rule the South Knoll completely out, but someone ducking behind the last concrete abutment on the south side of the overpass would have been awfully hidden from just about everybody. Even the men standing further to the north on the overpass.

Such a spot might might have made a getaway easy - just get into a car in the parking lot, and drive away to the south while everyone is concerned with what happened to the north.

Except that today, you have to drive on the north side of the Dallas Federal building (207 Houston) to leave the South Knoll parking lot to get to Houston Street. You're in plain view of everyone on Commerce. There is now a concrete wall preventing a driver from going behind - south of -  the building.

Does anyone know: in 1963, could anyone have driven out of the South Knoll parking lot by going to the south side of the Dallas Federal building, away from Commerce? Did that little wall exist then?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dealey+Plaza/@32.7762743,-96.8079254,77a,35y,358.6h,64.69t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xcfa47bf25b709fe0!8m2!3d32.7788184!4d-96.8082993

 

 

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Here is an example of shot trajectories from the railroad bridge to various places on Elm Street at Z frame locations Z 02, Z 133, and Z 160 based on a 15 degree angle.  These calculations are to find the height above Elm Street at the bridge for the various shots.

shot-angle-montage.jpg

The first example at Z 02 gives a value of about 52 feet.  There were no helicopters, planes, blimps, or UFOs.  This example is way to high.

The second uses Z 133 for that place and places in the Zapruder Gap.  The height 38 is feet. this might be possible for a shot if the railroad bridge is 30 feet high.

The third example is for Z 160.  And the height is 35 feet.  A shot at Z 160 might be possible if the bridge is 27 feet high.

Based on this photo showing trajectories at 15 degree angles.

dealey-plaza-triple-underpass-angles-1.j

This is best guessing.

Edited by John Butler
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6 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

zframe 2?

What's up John?

David,

I'm trying to do the impossible for me.  Calculations involving triangles.  I just posted that.

According to this the earlier Z frames point to the north end of the railroad bridge.  The lines pass over the Grassy Knoll.  Shots could have come from the bridge or the Grassy Knoll.  More likely, the Grassy Knoll.

These calculations would be more accurate if the height of the railroad bridge was known above Elm Street.

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21 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Both 6 & 7 show the "original" windshield while still on the limo...

David,

My take on this was there were no cracks base on the Altgens 7 photos I have.  I must have a photo without high enough resolution to see those cracks.

I will defer to your notion that there is cracks after Altgens 6 in the original windshield.

I still say that the windshield of the WC is a replacement windshield and not the original.  It does not have a hole through the windshield.

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Just now, John Butler said:

David,

My take on this was there were no cracks base on the Altgens 7 photos I have.  I must have a photo without high enough resolution to see those cracks.

I will defer to your notion that there is cracks after Altgens 6 in the original windshield.

I still say that the windshield of the WC is a replacement windshield and not the original.  It does not have a hole through the windshield.  The original was destroyed in Detroit.

 

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John... the 20:1 and 10:1 plats give us the height of the overpass railing....  428.4ft  there were half dozen surveys done we know the heights of everything...

We also know the heights of the top of JFK's head at various points along the way by removing 3.27 feet from the road elevations.  the official data is complete rubbish... jury-rigged by Shaneyfelt...  but the WEST data is accurate and will give you relative height to the 428.4ft elevation of the overpass railing...

First official shot, JFK's head would actually be only 1.4 feet lower than the overpass railing... (427.02 vs 428.4) as he is moved forward, he goes lower and lower at the rate of 1 foot for every 18.3 feet traveled.  207 is placed at 3+71.1....
at 3+89.4 - 10 feet down Elm - his height drops to 426.02.... and on and on...

Angles of the shot depend on when the shot occurs... working backward from shot angle guesses is not going to give you accurate results John.  Use the actual data provided us by WEST.  

5abe55d11e595_Shot1ince58510.2feetdownElmcomparedwithce884-smaller.thumb.jpg.efed25dd4c0df28faf1173f77ba003da.jpg

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