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JFK's Limo Windshield from National Archives---No Holes Barred


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2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Not according to Cunningham...

”cracks on outside layer of glass” “no cracks inside layer”

he does say “struck from inside” yet this view is looking at the windshield from in front of the limo.... “point of impact” is described here as the outside of the window.... 

And an opinion it surely is Adam...  the Evidence I’ve already posted in this thread proves the opposite....  as to WHY again...  I posted that too...  the shot would not be at such an angle but virtually straight on... as long as McHugh as gone.

Ce350 and Dallas images match as to that impact. Altgens7 matches... limo at Parkland matches....  one has to wonder, like nyc steel in 2001, why the important scene of the crime evidence was destroyed and/or spirited away under the watchful eyes of the FBI and Secret Service...

 


1121751526_Cunninghamreportanddrawingonlimowindshield2of2-withwriting.thumb.jpg.c894ccebea23cf5e7d3255d00064fe9b.jpg

Ugh late posting, let me clarify, thank you David.   Crack on outside but fragment residue on inside.

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1 hour ago, Cory Santos said:

Ugh late posting, let me clarify, thank you David.   Crack on outside but fragment residue on inside.

And then the FBI SS tries to explain a bullet fragment embedded in the the front seat was the result of a fragment hitting the CHROME above the window and deflecting into the seat...   when the FBI reports the same thing (this is SS) yet concludes the projectile which caused the hole was embedded in the seat...

Below is yet another report of yet another bullet which was never made public...   With both the FBI and SS describing this as a HOLE and not just a cracked windshield - it's hard after the fact to claim there was no hole...

5a9eba9aabdd9_HOLEinlimowindshieldonTreasuryreportt-gcd80_3-highlighted.jpg.1ed4f4a22be4d194d904191dea6eb3ff.jpg

 

1675023262_DrYoungclaimsaspentbulletwasfoundinthelimowhenretreivingskullpieces-itwasnotreported-highlighted-smallerfile.thumb.jpg.cf77bff03c0acd949a3a4a7e456ce90d.jpg

Edited by David Josephs
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Jim Phelps

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No Holes:

Cracks-in-windshield-CE-351.jpg

Jim Phelps started this thread with this image.  This is from the windshield marked as WC CE 351.  You can compare this to Altgens 6:

altgens-6-defect-windshield.jpg

David Josephs has made a case for later cracks around the hole in the windshield.   

p-limo-cracks-in-windshield.jpg

But, the cracks seem different in these two photos.  Doesn't matter.  The original windshield was destroyed in Detroit according to George Whitaker, Sr.

Altgens 7 doesn't have enough resolution to see these crack or the hole through the windosw.  As you can see here there is a hole through the windshield as can be seen in Altgens 6 and described by many witnesses.

This is from Greg Wagner:

But I don't question the authenticity of the photo simply because the government are li@r$, with a track record of deception and obfuscation in this case. It's that the assertion there was no bullet hole in the windshield is in direct conflict with the observations of nine witnesses. The FBI, the Warren Commission, you, me and anyone else considering this were not there. These nine people were there during the assassination or the immediate aftermath (albeit Whitaker's story is, I believe, uncorroborated), had a good look at the windshield, and stated there was a bullet hole in it. That carries a lot of weight with me. Were all nine of them lying or mistaken?

  • Stavis Ellis, DPD
  • HR Freeman, DPD
  • Evalea Glanges, nursing student at Parkland
  • Joe Paolella, Secret Service
  • Charles Taylor, Jr, Secret Service
  • Richard Dudman, St Louis Post-Dispatch
  • Frank Cormier, St Louis Post-Dispatch
  • George Whitaker, Sr, Ford Motor Company
  • Bill Greer (told to Nick Prencipe, US Parks Police)

I made the case that Altgens 6 and Altgens 7 shows the same hole in the same position:

windshield-defect-in-p-limo-altgens-6-an

And this is what George Whitaker, Sr. at the Ford Motor Co. said:

David Winnett says:

October 15, 2020 at 11:13 pm

That flies in the face of a videotaped interview with the manager of Ford’s glass division in Michigan who says that on the Monday morning following the Friday assassination he was shocked to come to work to find the Lincoln JFK was killed in was in his shop. LBJ ordered the car flown to Detroit to be completely rebuilt. This man said that there was a through and through bullet hole in the windshield that showed a frontal entry. He was ordered to “shred” the windshield, which he did. This interview can be seen in the video series “The Men Who Killed Kennedy”.

george-whitaker.jpg

Dave Wimsett:  "These nine people were there during the assassination or the immediate aftermath (albeit Whitaker's story is, I believe, uncorroborated),"

I believe Whitaker did see a through hole in the windshield and is corroborated by these photos and other witnesses.

WC CE 351 is a fake.  There is enough evidence here to say so without doubt.

It is just one of many things covered up by the White House and it’s various agencies and the Warren Commission.

Edited by John Butler
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On 10/27/2020 at 9:20 AM, Chris Davidson said:

The height relationship between the rear view mirror and JFK's throat was a constant, until such time that JFK physically moved. Laterally, move a shooter where-ever you so desire and position the limo on Elm, accordingly.

Throat.png

This thru the scope shot  from the movie "Inside The Target Car" is a misrepresentation. They placed the limo at Z313 instead of 223. If they had placed the limo correctly it would be about 3 feet higher and 100 farther away. We would see more of JFK's head, maybe 3 or 4 more inches of his head. If it was a level shot from the overpass or the annex parking lot the shot would have passed about 2 feet above and right of Altgen's head. That is only about 1 degrees steeper angle than we see from Altgen's location and height. I would guess most of JFK's head was a clear shot  to a south knoll shooter The window tint would have obscured a view of JFK's face but the top of the window frame would likely not be in the way.

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Shots from the Bridge

I was through with the Jim Phelp’s thread “JFK's Limo Windshield from National Archives---No Holes Barred” and had no intentions of returning when I posted this as my opinion:

“WC CE 351 is a fake.  There is enough evidence here to say so without doubt.

It is just one of many things covered up by the White House and its various agencies and the Warren Commission.

Edited Saturday at 11:47 AM by John Butler”

However, things would nag from time to time.  I did a poor job of showing where it is possible for a shot from the Triple Underpass could have been made.  This is an attempt to perhaps do that better.

I have two fine, outstanding fellows to help with this answer, David Josephs and Chris Bristow.  First off, David Josephs helped with my feeble knowledge of Dealey Plaza mathematics.  He sets the height of the Triple Underpass from Elm Street to the top of the railing at 26.3 ft.  This includes the height of President Kennedy. 

Chris Barstow provided information for shot angles, rise (or slope) of 3 degrees of the angle, and the slope for the downhill run from the intersection to the Triple underpass at 3.5 degrees.  He also provided an angle for the shot from President Kennedy’s throat to the windshield hole just to the left of the windshield mirror.  It was a 15 degree angle.

This is enough to calculate where a shot from the railroad bridge could have been made.  During this presentation the Zapruder Film will be used as a yardstick with each frame representing approximately a foot per frame.

I made a table of the results of looking at 5 places the p. limo would have been on Elm Street in relation to the Triple Underpass with an angle of the shot fired at 15 degrees:

Zapruder Frame-     Distance to bridge-  Height-         Conclusion

Z 02                       484 Ft.                    54.87 Ft.       Not possible, too high

Z 60                       426 Ft.                    48.30 Ft.       Not possible, too high

Z 133                      353 Ft.                    40.02 Ft        Not possible, perhaps to high

Z 160                      326 Ft.                    36.96 Ft        Possible

Z 225                      161 Ft.                    18.25 Ft        Not possible, too low

A special pleading can be made for a shot at Z 133 or Z 160 from the railroad bridge from a train ( I will speak of a train later) located at the south end of the Triple Underpass.

Z 133- This would pass directly over the South Knoll.  A shot here would be based upon the height of the bridge railing at 26.87 ft.  A boxcar 14 ft. tall (average size for boxcars are 14 to 16 ft. or some 18 ft.).  A train car by regulation is 4 ft. above the tracks.  26.87 + 1 ft. above railing + car height of 10 ft. equals 37 ft. Unless some one shot from on top of the car this is not possible.  One could use a taller boxcar at, say 18 ft., and have your shooter stand on crates or a stand, then that might be possible.  An explanation of what this would look like is below.

Based on this:

height-of-shot-for-z-133-at-bridge.jpg

The p. limo’s angle is derived from its position on Elm Street headed west.  The shot angle is then calculated based on Bristow’s 15 degree angle.

Z-133-shot-angle-height-at-bridge.jpg

We will do one more from the table to explain the method better:

Z 160- It is possible for a shot from a train box or passenger car located at the south end of the Triple Underpass.  This shot would also pass directly over the South Knoll as the other example of Z 133.  The p. limo through shot in the windshield definitely, with little doubt, came from the South Knoll area.  It is possible for a train passenger or box car stationed at the south end of the Triple Underpass to make a shot to the p. limo at Z 160. 

Once again the height of the railroad bridge is 26.87 ft. to the railing top.  At shot with the p. limo at Z 160 which is 326 ft. This gives a height of 36.93 ft.  Using a 16 or 18 ft. high car it is possible to make this shot at 326 ft. based on this:

height-of-shot-for-z-160-at-bridge.jpg

And would look like this:

Z-160-shot-angle-height-at-bridge.jpg

 

A train on the Triple Underpass is a minority position.  Few believe that there was a train on the railroad bridge as the President came down Elm Street in Dealey Plaza.  There is really no pictorial evidence that there was a train in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination.  Robert Hughes shows a passenger train in the railroad yards after the assassination.  There is an Allen photo that shows a passenger/boxcar in the railroad yards after the assassination.  The passenger cars are taller than the boxcars.

There were 3 Dallas police officers who said there was a train on the tracks as the assassination occurred.  These are:

1.     J. W. Foster- east side of the Triple Underpass located at the north end of the bridge- He, at first said there was not a train, but later said there was.

2.     J. C. White- located on the west side of the TU approximately above Main Street.  He said a train was there and it kept him from hearing anything and saw the p. limo come out from the TU while the train was still there.

3.     Earle Brown- was located further west on the Stemmons Freeway Overpass about the same distance from the TU as the TU is from the Elm intersection.  He said there was a train.

Three police officers saying the same thing will usually convince a court of what they were testifying about.  There was an article by Fred T. Newcomb in which one of the Willis slides were said to show a train, but had been altered while in the custody of the FBI.

OTH, there is no pictorial evidence showing a train in Dealey Plaza on the bridge.  However, the activity that afternoon on the railroad bridge is highly suspicious.  It indicates something was going on there to coverup something. 

Altgens 6 and Bell show Officer J. W. Foster and about 10 railroad men on the bridge when the p. limo approaches and is about to go under the bridge.  These are fraudulent photos and frames.  Why?  Preponderance of the Evidence.  There are 8 other films and photos that show no one was on the bridge during the time of the assassination.  These are:

1.     The Jim Towner Photo

2.     The Weigman Film 

3.     The Bell Film- At the time the p. limo approaches the bridge an early Bell frame shows no one on the bridge, a few frames later shows 4 or perhaps 5 people there, and then a few frames later the same personnel as the Altgens 6 Photo.

4.     The Martin Film

5.     A Wilma Bond Photo

6.     The Couch Film

7.     The Paschall Film

8.     The Hughes Film

This gives a brief idea of the train or no train in Dealey Plaza.

The conclusion of all this is that a shot to either the Z 160 or Z 225 location is correct for producing the location of the windshield hole and subsequent throat wound of President Kennedy.  This was fired from the area of the South Knoll either from the parking lot or a train on the tracks directly behind and above it.

 

Edited by John Butler
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I think the "passenger train" was not a real train but three stationary passenger cars on a siding - normally dispatched work sites as needed but at the time coupled and actually connected to a live steam pipe passing over a raised pipe which passed underneath cement siding on the overpass bridge.  When I started going to Dallas parts of the pipe were still in place.  If those three cars are what is being referred to as a train, they were not.

Beyond that Bowers had shut down all rail traffic in the yard and across the bridge before the motorcade and only opened traffic up again an hour or more afterwards, that was when he observed a train from downtown Dallas passing outbound over the bridge with a tramp in an open hopper card, visible looking down from his tower.

 

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I'm petty sure that passenger car shown is one of the three that I mentioned in my post, not a mobile unit.  But you can check by looking at overhead views of the period which clearly show the location of the three cars. Other photos of the day show a policeman standing on top of one of them.  In any event, the photo you posted above was taken some time after the assassination as cars were being cleared out of the lot.  Its hard for me to imagine a passenger train would be cleared into yard an hour or so after the assassination and simply parked there..?

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A shot from the South Knoll

The train/no train argument at the time of the Dealey Plaza assassination is just one of several related ideas to a shot coming from the South Knoll.  Whether a train was there or not, the best evidence suggests a shot from the South Knoll area to the p. limo resulting in a through hole in the windshield to left of the windshield mirror and on to President Kennedy’s throat.

Larry Hancock     Posted Friday at 05:10 PM

I think the "passenger train" was not a real train but three stationary passenger cars on a siding - normally dispatched work sites as needed but at the time coupled and actually connected to a live steam pipe passing over a raised pipe which passed underneath cement siding on the overpass bridge.  When I started going to Dallas parts of the pipe were still in place.  If those three cars are what is being referred to as a train, they were not.?

Larry Hancock       Posted Friday at 06:34 PM

“I'm petty sure that passenger car shown is one of the three that I mentioned in my post, not a mobile unit.  But you can check by looking at overhead views of the period which clearly show the location of the three cars. Other photos of the day show a policeman standing on top of one of them.  In any event, the photo you posted above was taken some time after the assassination as cars were being cleared out of the lot.  Its hard for me to imagine a passenger train would be cleared into yard an hour or so after the assassination and simply parked there..?

This montage explains the idea visually. 

train-allen-hughes-montage.jpg

This train probably was connected as Hancock suggests.  However, it did not have an engine attached as seen in other frames from Hughes.  Engines can be decoupled from trains in a moment, a small period of time, and re-tasked elsewhere.  So can other cars be detached and moved around in the railyard yards.  Re-tasking cars is the major purpose of a railroad yard. 

This is the train that was searched by the Dallas Police and found the three tramps.  A later photo of a policeman on the train top is a good indication of that.  These are photos taken after the assassination in the rail yards directly after the shooting.  A best guess might suggest about 10 minutes or less.  According to a Wilma Bond photo, taken moments after the shooting the train was there during the assassination or possibly on the bridge.

There is no pictorial evidence for a train in Dealey Plaza during the assassination on the railroad bridge.  The best one can say is there was alteration.  Some photos, such as the Willis slide, were altered.  There is a Wilma Bond photo showing a train beyond the Grassy Knoll structure, on what Harold Weisberg called the Pergola spur, should have been visible in Willis.  A Nix frame shows the same thing.  There is convincing evidence by witnesses, Dallas Policemen and others, that there was a train in Dealey Plaza during the assassination.

Now, the information about the train provided by Hancock being believable or not is problematic.   This information most likely came from the railroad companies.  Here’s why:

From Wikipedia:

The State of Texas chartered the Union Terminal Company on March 16, 1912. The mission of the company was to build a central terminal in Dallas for the seven railroads then serving the city.[1] The terminal company ownership expanded to eight railroads, each having a 12.5% share: the Texas & Pacific; the Frisco; the Rock Island; the Cotton Belt; the Southern Pacific; the Santa Fe; the Katy; and the Trinity & Brazos Valley. 

The Union Terminal Company is the organization that is of interest here because the 11 or 12 railroad workers, with most interviewed by Mark Lane, are from that company.  I think Mark Lane was so ecstatic to have other shooting in Dealey Plaza he uncritically accepted what these men had to say.  But, perhaps he didn’t know about all of the things discussed here which comes from later evidence.

Union Company Terminal Railroad Witnesses allegedly on Triple Underpass

1   C F Bishop   Bishop, Curtis Freeman        3/19/64 FBI report        
2   E W Cowsert  Cowsert, Ewell William        3/19/64 FBI report
3   G A Davis    Davis, George A.        3/19/64 FBI report
4   R C Dodd     Dodd, Richard Calvin        3/18/64 FBI report
5   S M Holland  Holland S.M.           *        11/22/63 Affidavit
6   C E Johnson         Johnson, Clemon Earl        3/18/64 FBI report
7   A L Miller          Miller, Austin L. *        1/22/63 Affidavit
8   T J Murphy         Murphy, Thomas J.        3/20/64 FBI report
9   N H Potter         Potter, Nolan H.        3/19/64 FBI report
10  F E Reilly          Reilly, Frank E.  
11  J L Simmons Simmons, James L. **        3/19/64 FBI report
12  R G Skelton  Skelton, Royce G. *        11/22/63 Affidavit

I have demonstrated earlier in this thread and other threads that these men were not on the Triple Underpass above Elm Street as portrayed in Altgens 6 and the Bell film.  Instead they were at the north end of the bridge where the grassy slope comes up into that area.  The were held there by Officer Foster.  More than likely they could still see what was transpiring in Dealey Plaza.  They would have known about a train on the tracks.

Their testimony may be true or contrived for the benefit of the Union Terminal Company.  And, now to the heart of the matter.  There may have been a shot or from the Grassy Knoll, but it was not the shot that produced the through hole in the windshield.

This and things like Jesse Curry saying there needs to be men sent up unto the bridge to find out what was going on there lead me to believe there is something dubious concerning activities in the Triple Underpass area.  This information indicates there was something sketchy going on in that area and information provided by the Union Terminal Co. and other railroad companies, the railroad workers, and other general information needs to looked at more closely and perhaps discounted.

Edited by John Butler
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Were the tramps found in the boxcars or the Pullman cars? I noticed in the 2nd McIntyre photo of the Queen Mary at the Stemmons on ramp, you can see the signal tower and the boxcars are not under it yet. So I guess they did not arrive till Bowers reopened the yard to traffic.

FINAL TRAINS LOW RES.jpg

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Bowers reported seeing a single tramp in an open gondola car as a train he had routed into the yard and out across the bridge came in from downtown Dallas (he was looking down on the car and the tramp was in the open).  He makes no mention of seeing tramps taken from a boxcar.  Whether the tramps were taken in after a search of the entire yard on his side or from the yard on the other side of the bridge is unclear.  If they were taken from a boxcar on the train he reported it would have been coming into the yard, not parked in it or coming into it from across the bridge.  That's the best I can figure from his reports.

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13 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

Were the tramps found in the boxcars or the Pullman cars? I noticed in the 2nd McIntyre photo of the Queen Mary at the Stemmons on ramp, you can see the signal tower and the boxcars are not under it yet. So I guess they did not arrive till Bowers reopened the yard to traffic.

FINAL TRAINS LOW RES.jpg

Chris,

I believe this was the boxcars.  At least this is what Chauncy Holt said according to my memory.  The train passenger cars were there when Robert Hughes arrived in the yards.  And, that is probably about 10 minutes or less after the assassination.

There are several photos and film frames show the train was there as the assassination was in progress and several minutes thereafter.  These are mentioned in an earlier post.

One may not be able to see a train on the "Pergola spur" as described by Harold Weisberg.  That is on the east side of the railroad bridge.  The Triple Underpass is about 120 feet wide and from McIntyre the train would not be seen due to lower elevation. 

triple-underpass-width.jpg

Dallas Police Officer J. C. White said that is was a long slow freight train.  So did Officers Earle Brown and later J. W. Foster changed his testimony to say the same.  Dallas Police Sargent D. V. Harkness searched two long freight trains in the rail yards and removed tramps from a freight car.  I find this convincing.  Officer White was on the west side of the bridge about where he said he was in his affidavit.  You can see him in McIntyre. 

I don't see the signal towers in this McIntyre photo.  Wrong angle perhaps?  

 mcintyre-photo-unger-martin.jpg

And, the same would be true in your other photo montage concerning towers.  You can't see whether a train was there or not:

train-Chris-Bristow-montage-signal-tower

Wilma Bond:

Bond-8-train-in-pergola.jpg

The train/no train argument is old and not winnable by either side.  This is my interpretation and someone else may very well disagree.  

IMO, there is a possibility of a shot from a train at about Z 160 if that train boxcars were behind the South Knoll.  The Z 225 shot is a very good possibility.

Here's another iffy thought.  The motorcade photographers were held on Houston until the train cleared the bridge.  Any other photographers arrived in the grassy area across Elm from the Pergola are like this Bond Photo.  They were taken several moments after the assassination.  You can see the 27th motorcade vehicle.  This was a  black 1957 Ford hardtop.  I don't know how long this would have taken, but certainly several minutes.

 

 

Edited by John Butler
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12 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Bowers reported seeing a single tramp in an open gondola car as a train he had routed into the yard and out across the bridge came in from downtown Dallas (he was looking down on the car and the tramp was in the open).  He makes no mention of seeing tramps taken from a boxcar.  Whether the tramps were taken in after a search of the entire yard on his side or from the yard on the other side of the bridge is unclear.  If they were taken from a boxcar on the train he reported it would have been coming into the yard, not parked in it or coming into it from across the bridge.  That's the best I can figure from his reports.

Was Lee Bowers a creditable witness?

Dallas Police Sargent D.V. Harkness described how the issue began to the Warren Commission:

Mr. HARKNESS. Well, we got a long freight that was in there, and we pulled some people off of there and took them to the station.

Mr. BELIN. You mean some transients?

Mr. HARKNESS. Tramps and hoboes.

Mr. BELIN. That were on the freight car?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. That was all my assignment, because they shook two long freights down that were leaving, to my knowledge, in all the area there. We had several officers working in that area.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in.

Mr. BELIN. Were these what you call hoboes or tramps?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were all those questioned?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned.

Edited by John Butler
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9 hours ago, John Butler said:

Chris,

I believe this was the boxcars.  At least this is what Chauncy Holt said according to my memory.  The train passenger cars were there when Robert Hughes arrived in the yards.  And, that is probably about 10 minutes or less after the assassination.

There are several photos and film frames show the train was there as the assassination was in progress and several minutes thereafter.  These are mentioned in an earlier post.

One may not be able to see a train on the "Pergola spur" as described by Harold Weisberg.  That is on the east side of the railroad bridge.  The Triple Underpass is about 120 feet wide and from McIntyre the train would not be seen due to lower elevation. 

triple-underpass-width.jpg

Dallas Police Officer J. C. White said that is was a long slow freight train.  So did Officers Earle Brown and later J. W. Foster changed his testimony to say the same.  Dallas Police Sargent D. V. Harkness searched two long freight trains in the rail yards and removed tramps from a freight car.  I find this convincing.  Officer White was on the west side of the bridge about where he said he was in his affidavit.  You can see him in McIntyre. 

I don't see the signal towers in this McIntyre photo.  Wrong angle perhaps?  

 mcintyre-photo-unger-martin.jpg

And, the same would be true in your other photo montage concerning towers.  You can't see whether a train was there or not:

train-Chris-Bristow-montage-signal-tower

Wilma Bond:

Bond-8-train-in-pergola.jpg

The train/no train argument is old and not winnable by either side.  This is my interpretation and someone else may very well disagree.  

IMO, there is a possibility of a shot from a train at about Z 160 if that train boxcars were behind the South Knoll.  The Z 225 shot is a very good possibility.

Here's another iffy thought.  The motorcade photographers were held on Houston until the train cleared the bridge.  Any other photographers arrived in the grassy area across Elm from the Pergola are like this Bond Photo.  They were taken several moments after the assassination.  You can see the 27th motorcade vehicle.  This was a  black 1957 Ford hardtop.  I don't know how long this would have taken, but certainly several minutes.

 

 

John, the tower is not visible in the McIntyre photo of JFK, it is visible in the 2nd McIntyre photo of the follow up car. In the photo of the tower taken from in front of the TSB the East tower is visible but the West side is blocked by the boxcar so the boxcar was definitely under the tower but there is no boxcar there in McIntyre 2
   The side of the tower has 3 sections and the boxcar is 2 1/2 sections tall. You can see all 3 sections on both sides of the tower from the McIntyre 2 photo so McIntyre was not too low to see the boxcar. If the boxcar was there it would have been almost completely visible. Notice in Mc2 we can see the top of the Southern most Pullman car which was on the East track. So from the Mc2 position we could see all the trains.
The trains on the overpass would have also been visible. Some google Earth images from the Mc2 position show trains were visible above the ' Old Charter" billboard too. The Pullman cars we can see in Mc2 are farther East than the part of the track behind the billboard, the trains behind the billboard extended well above the billboard from the Mc2 position.
 The only trains visible during the assassination in Nix and other photos taken from elevations above approx 427 hasl were of the Pullman cars and its windows. Not sure if you meant box or Pullman car.
     The area left of the pergola has always looked like an alteration to me. The sharp line of the side of the pergola add to the effect. But what would they be hiding there if the boxcars and tramps were part of the intended misdirection of the assassins?
 I did not know the cop on the north overpass changed his story to include the freight train foster said he saw. I assumed Foster lied to cover up something but what a crazy lie to say he saw a freight train if there was not one.
 At frames 160 and  225 the boxcar shot would be blocked by the parastyle and the pergola. Maybe they could have a shot through  the parastlye windows but that seems untenable. If the boxcar was really under the tower there was likely no shot. If it was farther south it was removed from McIntyre and other images but would still have to shoot over the knoll fence yet under the trees in front of the fence.

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