Jump to content
The Education Forum

Tipping Point serialization now in progress on the Mary Ferrell Foundation site


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

 Angleton, Harvey - the latter two some of the most paranoid and off the rails people you would find anywhere

Larry,

Can you point me to any publicly available correspondence between these two? RIF numbers on the MFF site or some such?

Steve Thomas

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 181
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Steve, I described a good bit of the correspondence in NEXUS but the real source is in Harvey's biography by Stockton.  The only reason we have any real insight to their later association is though his work and the correspondence provided by Harvey's wife. It provides a far different story than what had previously been in public view.

https://www.amazon.com/Flawed-Patriot-Rise-Legend-Harvey/dp/1574889915

As to their working relationship on assassination and on Angleton's work on Cuban counter intelligence following the Bay of Pigs disaster, including with the AMOT's, that is cited to documents and you will find it in NEXUS. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

As a more direct answer, all I can postulate as I did in Tipping Point is that there were conversations which would have involved Dulles, Angleton, Harvey - the latter two some of the most paranoid and off the rails people you would find anywhere - ,and Helms about their concerns over JFK's drift towards negotiation and neutrality in international relations, which they considered both extremely naive and actually dangerous.  Those conversations were repeated within Operations, likely to King but more importantly down stream to officers in SAS/WAVE. 

The whole purpose of Tipping Point was to lay out a very concrete scenario how those conversations were translated into a conspiracy by a clique of Cuba Project alumni in Miami - I know that is too low level to be satisfactory for many but that's the way I see it.  Dulles and an "influencer", yes....as someone giving orders, the operational driver in a conspiracy...not in my opinion.

I don't know if you consider that "setting in motion", to a certain extent it would be I suppose, little different than how earlier conversations had triggered actions with no orders given. It certainly would not have been the first time, just the most extreme. 

O.K. It's all very interesting, and I've finished 'Tipping Point' on the MFF site.  I do just wonder that higher plotters than Cuba Project alumni were required.  Lots of factors involving multi agencies seemed to fall into place very quickly i.e. Secret Service, D.P.D. F.B.I. 

Anyway, I forgot to ask, do you have a publication date for 'Tipping Point'?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I doubt this particular issue will ever be resolved; there is not doubt a great many people intuitively suspect a much broader conspiracy. And given the issues and attitudes against JFK's and his policies in many circles of the time,  its always possible to tie other people and other groups into a conspiracy scenario.

As for me, I tried in SWHT 2010 and then in Tipping Point to present  both the indications and logic behind the idea that a lot of the elements which cast suspicion on the FBI, the DPD, the CIA and even the SS have to do with a) their covering up their own pre-assassination knowledge of and use of Oswald and b) mistakes and negligence on their own part, that especially pertains to the SS.  

I also made the case, beyond that, for indications of an official, Presidential sanctioned campaign of obfuscation and suppression based on National Security concerns (and possibly a bit of guilty knowledge on LBJ's part).  That may even have been supported by a still classified national security directive (just speculation on my part, wait another 100 years and it might or might not surface).

But I know none of that is ever going to compete with suspicions of a broader conspiracy - its just impossible to prove a negative, especially one in the venue of conspiracy.  We see that every day in contemporary times.

What I can do is answer  your final question and say that the print version is targeted for Q1.  Still a lot of work to do ranging from corrections and elaborations (some suggested in this thread) to copy/content additions based on brand new information that has only come to my attention over the last month or so.  With Rex's tolerance that will add a few more pages to the book. 

And then there is the final proof read and ultimately the index.   Still, if we both survive all that, and if I can write new copy quickly enough, still shooting for the end of Q1 (and glad it will have a 2021 copyright, not 2020).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Larry, in part four you say "This leaves us with reason to question if Helms had indeed suddenly terminated Harvey's assassination project in April, or whether the Harvey/Roselli trip to the keys was actually "operational" for some unstated purpose."

From comments you've made in this thread I kind of got the idea you don't believe upper level people in the CIA in Washington played a part in the assassination of JFK.  (I've not read part 5 yet)  You mentioned in part 2 or 3 a bond that had developed between Harvey, Morales and Angleton.  Didn't Angleton take over the Cuba desk after the BOP?  Was he still in that position?  Might a bond have involved occasional direct communications on extremely sensitive operations?

I'm not sure exactly what I might be getting at here.  But between what I mention above and wondering if Helms left a terminated project operational. . .  I wonder, might tacit approval been conferred from above?  Without operational knowledge of the details?  Plausible Deniability so to speak?

Maybe just a call from Harvey to ? saying he needed to meet with a former contact in Miami and they needed to meet with other contacts in the keys to further finalize plans to "terminate" the project.  All speculation I know.

It's just hard for me to grasp no knowledge at the top of what was going to happen.  Things like my belief that LBJ was briefed in advance so he wouldn't over react.  Talbot says Dulles did spend the evening and rest of the weekend at his residence on the farm, fired or not. . .  He'd been to Dallas a month before for the first time in his life on one of three stops (?) on his book tour.  I know proof of nothing.  Another coincidence.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

 

 

Let me try those one at a time:

First, Roselli coded his expense report for the trip to ZRRIFLE operations and we have a document saying that Helms had funded the project through the end of the year.  We have nothing to corroborate that operations were totally shut down in April, we just don't have any concrete records of what might have continued, including ongoing training for personnel to go into Cuba to assassinate Castro. There are anecdotal stories of a special, compartmentalized camp used for such a training, supported by Rip Roerbson and isolated from the rest of WAVE activities. 

Segment 5 really deals with my views on higher level involvement - as well as a post I just made to Pete in this thread earlier today so you might want to check that out.

Angleton did not take over the Cuba desk (if anything that remained under JC King, Chief Western Hemisphere), what actually happened was that during 1961 he was given a special assignment to investigate Cuban intelligence penetration of the first Cuba Project.

He worked with Miami station for much of 1961 doing an extended study of CI failure in the first project and preparing a report on fixes...one of the outcomes was the creation of the Cuban Intel Service at JMWAVE, which incorporated many of the AMMOTS Morales had trained.

A personal bond did later develop between Angleton and Harvey, as related to Castro assassination, I detail that in NEXUS and its covered in the bio on Harvey that I mentioned to Steve in another post today.

On your final point, the Castro assassination project was certainly live going into 1963 and it continued on for several months, what we have no real details on are which particular Cuban volunteers were part of that project or exactly what they were doing that year...or where they ended up for that matter.  The committee was just getting around to asking Roselli about that last phase, when he was killed before going back in front of their investigators. 

Roselli tells us the JFK assassination was carried out by personnel that had been involved with a CIA program to kill Castro; Wheaton tells us the same thing. 

As to operational approval, as I pointed out in an earlier segment of Tipping Point, these volunteers were used to taking orders, especially from people like Robertson or Lynch whom they trusted.  Nothing ever on paper, no verbal countersigns from higher up...just do it.....asking questions violates operational security.

For your last point, again I refer you to the same comments I gave to Pete, with one exception....if you refer back to SWHT you will see that I do hold an option, which I spell out in considerable detail (with names) that Johnson had some minimal level of knowledge that something was going to take off the hook in the Baker scandal befire it all blew back on him in Congress.  All that he should do was to be calm and accept whatever occurred to bring that about - without any questions.

Pure speculation on my part, but with some factual info behind the speculation spelled out in two chapters in the book - none of which I put into Tipping Point because I see it as not directly relevant to the attack,  but only to the suppression of any inquiry into conspiracy that he might have driven (and to those really interesting calls from the White House to Texas on that Friday night from his aide).

It's just hard for me to grasp no knowledge at the top of what was going to happen.  Things like my belief that LBJ was briefed in advance so he wouldn't over react.  Talbot says Dulles did spend the evening and rest of the weekend at his residence on the farm, fired or not. . .  He'd been to Dallas a month before for the first time in his life on one of three stops (?) on his book tour.  I know proof of nothing.  Another coincidence.  

Edited by Larry Hancock
Link to post
Share on other sites

I got lucky.  First time I've referenced SWHT in a while.  LBJ is referenced 22 times in the index.  Pages 313-319 were my first choice.  Johnson's initial lack of concern for national security is astounding given the possible scenarios.  No contact whatsoever with any one from DOD, JCS, State until 6:20 eastern time with the Secretary of Defense, only because he came to Andrews AFB.  Nearly 5 hours after the assassination.  He wasn't worried about it being a Russian conspiracy from the get go.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree Ron, and to be perfectly honest Johnson was essentially a coward when faced with personal danger, his war experience reflects that and Caro describes it.  For that matter running from a group of ultra right wing women in Dallas, fleeing with Lady Bird from their protest signs as he had done only earlier sort of confirms that. 

My book Surprise Attack grew largely out of a curiosity to compare the reactions of presidents and the national security apparatus in response to national crises.  What I found was that the system itself often responds as it did after Dallas.....moving to what you might call damage control, including containment and suppression of information....but Johnson's personal reaction as Commander in Chief was an exception, he was extremely detached.  Compare his involvement after Dallas to his involvement with the Tonkin Gulf or the Liberty incidents.

In any event, I find his behavior after the attack in Dallas to be a very strange mix of personal unconcern and detachment from the duties of Commander in Chief.  He demanded to be installed in that position as soon as possible...and then did nothing with the responsibility for hours (other than making a still mysterious call to Hoover after his return to DC which does not appear on the record but which Manchester documented).

The best option as to what might have caused such dysfunctional behavior is what I offered in 'SWHT. ,

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/2/2021 at 1:58 AM, Larry Hancock said:

It's just hard for me to grasp no knowledge at the top of what was going to happen.  Things like my belief that LBJ was briefed in advance so he wouldn't over react.  Talbot says Dulles did spend the evening and rest of the weekend at his residence on the farm, fired or not. . .  He'd been to Dallas a month before for the first time in his life on one of three stops (?) on his book tour.  I know proof of nothing.  Another coincidence.  

Of many coincidences.  Dulles was in Dallas five weeks prior to the assassination.  Invited to speak at the Dallas Council on World Affairs.  (Of which George de Mohrenschildt was a member.)

I strongly advise getting a copy of Poulgrain's 'JFK vs Allen Dulles' which documents the links between Dulles and de Mohrenschildt going as far back as the 1930's.  Information that George didn't disclose to the WC's Albert Jenner....commission sessions attended by Dulles!

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/1/2021 at 11:33 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Larry,

Can you point me to any publicly available correspondence between these two? RIF numbers on the MFF site or some such?

Steve Thomas

This interview with Harvey's widow speaks volumes about the mindset of William Harvey and his ilk. Her last statement could be the most revealing Freudian slip ever caught on film.

 

Edited by Robert Burrows
Link to post
Share on other sites

Good link Robert, I actually refer to that in Tipping Point and cite that particular link myself.  We speculate a lot about the motives of many people yet the remarks by Morales's life long friend Reuben and Harvey's wife seem to me to carry far stronger weight. These people just didn't dislike JFK's policies, they considered him a traitor and literally hated him.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/30/2020 at 3:10 PM, Matt Allison said:

RFK was at the autopsy. RFK did not want his brother's Addison Disease revealed. Are you disputing that?

As far as "CIA disinformation", prove that assertion or don't expect to be taken seriously.

yes I want to dispute that. What shred of evidence do you have?

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/30/2020 at 2:32 PM, Eddy Bainbridge said:

I accept that I (who at 53) did not really 'live' the experience but if you will allow me an equivalent generalisation. I discern in older posters/ researchers a resistance to honest consideration that the extant Z film is not the camera original. I suspect the shock at seeing the film in the sixties burned a version of reality onto the brains of those who experienced it 

I feel this has and is hampering research progress 

problem with this is that the Zapruder film did not go public until 1975; we did NOT see it in the '60s. You probably saw it at the same time I did (as young as you might have been; but I was only 21) -

Edited by Allen Lowe
Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought this note I made was from part 5.  I skimmed back over it and part 4.  Maybe I missed it.   Mabra and Smith encounter a (I think it said other DPD) officer behind the fence. He told them Nobody Came This Way, Fellows I've been here an hour and they're hasn't been anything here, not even a stray dog.  From part 3?

Interesting.  I remember Smith parking his bike and running up the GK but not Mabra. Nor that Smith ID'd him as DPD as opposed to (non existent) Secret Service, regarding credentials?

Beyond that. . . "weapons stashed for pickup by individuals completely separated from the attack itself" set off the radar antenna's on my tin foil hat.  I've considered this for several years.  Regarding the GK, footprints, numerous cigarette butts, mud on a bumper behind the fence.  Unimportant enough for the DPD to search related/nearby car trunks.

Open the trunk as JFK turns off Houston onto Elm (spotter/rear guard).  Shooter does so, throw's gun in trunk, walks behind the TSBD at a steady rapid pace.  Spotter in DPD uniform slams trunk shut.  Speculating again.  Reasonable? 

Further regarding stashed weapons, might the Mannlicher Carcano have been stashed by the stairs/freight elevator well before a shot was fired?  Such would help with the speed of the getaway. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

As I recall Mabra was coming from his assignment at the Elm and Houston intersection.  Since the motorcade was primarily treated as a traffic control problem regular officers were stationed at intersections with reserves on the street in between...but nobody beyond the Elm / Houston intersection.

I'm afraid for way too long we have speculated about the intricacies of the conspiracy at its highest levels and treated things going on in the Plaza independently, simply arguing over each of them again and again. What I tried to do was step back and look at it from a tactical perspective, as anyone with paramilitary experience would if they were involved with an ambush in an urban environment.

Of course we are handicapped in doing that because that's not the way the police investigated it either.  An exploding squib behind the fence for a diversion, lighted from a cigarette - nothing left but footprints and butts, weapons tossed into car trunks and no trunk searches (and the list of license plates and names disappears too), the large wooden shipping boxes in the TSBD never examined, easy to have an end off, toss in a rifle and slam wood back on - once they find the rifle you planted they will stop looking anyway.  Same for any brass you picked up.

All we know is that any reasonably sophisticated covert attack was not going to be exposed by the investigation that was done. Not when you have even the simplest one shooter frame in play. History shows us that with an obvious suspect in custody the tendency is almost always to declare victory and move on to strengthen the case against them, not expand the investigation.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...