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Tipping Point serialization now in progress on the Mary Ferrell Foundation site


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From Part 3:

"Lee Oswald was observed meeting in Dallas with two "subversives" by the FBI; that information was related by FBI agent James Hosty to Secret Service agent Patterson on November 23."

I am not familiar with this at all; is it discussed anywhere here on the forum?

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Its not a new find Matt,  I wrote about it even in the earlier editions of SWHT.  Not sure if its been discussed here before or not, at this point it seem like almost everything has but I could not be sure. 

It certainly is a key part of the final Dallas story and its chronology and like some topics it not got much discussion in recent years.

I can say that I had the opportunity to discuss a few things with Hosty before and after he spoke at a Lancer conference.  He was very open on the telephone and brought up several points where he took odds with the official story on Oswald.  The single thing he would not discuss was this item. Even when I provided him with a document confirming Patterson's remarks he simply refused to comment. 

.....there is also another line on this in which a similar remark was made to one or more Dallas Police officers - that became a major bone of contention for a time until they backed off and it dropped out of sight.  That's covered elsewhere and in SWHT and I did not insert it into tipping point.  It does support the view that the FBI in Dallas was monitoring subversive activities and Oswald showed up during that activity - it may well have been an FBI activity directly involving Heitman rather than Hosty. 

Edited by Larry Hancock
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Larry,

I think you've got it right in your footnote 147 in Part 3 vis-a-vis Sylvia Odio being used as a "dangle" to uncover weapons sales to JURE. I've long thought that more emphasis should have been placed on Odio as an intermediary for weapons sales as opposed to her simply being a "translator" of flyers.

Steve Thomas

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One of the key points in bringing a focus on her was her travel in the summer and the fact that the FBI was very seriously trying to interdict all sales.  Regardless of any success on her part she should defnitely have been on their radar.  When you add in the very real conflict between JMWAVE and JURE you get a complex mix - with her and Dallas standing out as the only entry point for JURE inside the U.S. outside Miami. 

The documents now let us see how seriously both FBI and CIA were all over such things and if she would not have been under some form of observation would be strange.  We also know that JMWAVE used the AMOTs for both dangles and stings (including in Mexico City).

Given all that and Sarita's likely association with DRE members at school, we have to think the Odio's would have been an counter intelligence target.

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7 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Given all that and Sarita's likely association with DRE members at school, we have to think the Odio's would have been an counter intelligence target.

Larry,

Yup.

Her and her uncle Guitart in New Orleans. He seems to be an intersection point too.

Steve Thomas

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48 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Larry,

 I've long thought that more emphasis should have been placed on Odio as an intermediary for weapons sales as opposed to her simply being a "translator" of flyers.

Steve Thomas

Larry,

Not to beat a dead horse, but this is what did it for me:

Commission Document 946 - SS Aragon Report of 5 May 1964 re: Sylvia Odio, Rogelio Cisneros Diaz page 3

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11342&search="Juan_Martin"#relPageId=4&tab=page

On May 4, 1964 in an interview in his home with SS Agent Ernest I. Aragon, Rogelio Cisneros told Aragon that:

Rogelio Cisneros, a JURE member in Miami, went to Dallas alone, by plane in June, 1963 for the specific purpose of contacting Sylvia Odio who was supposed to introduce Cisneros to a Uruguayan named Juan Martin, who was interested in selling small arms to JURE. “He further identified himself as Rogelio Cisneros Diaz, an officer of JURE, at Miami,Florida, and added that the name “Eugenio” is his designated “war name””.

The JURE office in Dallas was already in operation, having been established in May, 1963. He only contacted Sylvia Odio once. When they went to her house, Cisneros was accompanied by Jorge Rodriguez (Alvarada) (Alvereda?), their Dallas delegate, and no one else.

My question is, why would Rogelio Cisneros fly from Miami, FL. To Dallas, TX. alone, in a plane for the specific purpose of contacting Sylvia Odio in order to meet a gun runner who he had never met before? Why her and why only once?

 

Steve Thomas

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Larry/Steve. Great discussion.

Do we know just when in June Cisneros visited Odio? Cisneros was a CIA asset that was reporting to his case officer Alfonso Rodriguez aka Willard Nauman. A-Rod reported to SAS chief Dez Fitzgerald and was a one of the main players in the Split the Regime project. He was previously a special assistant under William Harvey.  A-Rod was mostly concerned with the JURE autonomous operations branch of this. The others being AMTRUNK, AMWORLD and the AMLASH/Cubela operations. Manuel Ray would also meet with A-Rod but tried to maintain his independence from the CIA. The number 3 guy in JURE was Carlos Zarraga who was charged with weapons procurement. There is good reason to believe he was AMOT-133 who reported up to Tony Sforza. AMOT-133 was the contact for Herminio Diaz Garcia.

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3 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

The single thing he would not discuss was this item. Even when I provided him with a document confirming Patterson's remarks he simply refused to comment. 

The entire idea of Oswald being a Lone Nut is based on the precept that he had no contact with anyone that could have assisted in a conspiracy. This seems like it blows that out of the water.

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1 hour ago, David Boylan said:

Larry/Steve. Great discussion.

Do we know just when in June Cisneros visited Odio?

David,

From Sylvia's WC testimony:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/odio.htm

"Mrs. ODIO. I think I can give you the exact date. This was before I left for Puerto Rico. June 28, Eugenio arrived from Miami to see Johnny Martin.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you say that on June 28 Eugenio arrived from Miami, is that correct?
Mrs. ODIO. He was supposed to have arrived June 14, but he never did, and I called-two times to make another appointment with Johnny, and he just arrived in time for me to see him. Then it was a time when we met, not Alentado, the other one, Alvareda--Rodriguez Alvareda.
So they went to my house. Now, I was living at the time at 6140 Oram Street, the day they arrived. But when I went back to Puerto Rico, the same day, June 29, I saw Ray, and I explained to him what Johnny Martin here in Dallas was up to, and then he said that he was planning a trip also to see if something could be worked out."

So, Cisneros visits Sylvia on June 28. She goes to Puerto Rico the next day and tells Ray all about it.

Interesting.

Steve Thomas

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Thanks for the link Larry. I have recently obtained the Brandstetter book about his life due to authors referencing him and having noted previous comments by posters about Brandy. Cutting to the chase, what is your own assessment of Brandy and his ties to McLendon and D.L. Phillips? 

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Thanks for the link Larry. I have recently obtained the Brandstetter book about his life due to authors referencing him and having noted previous comments by posters about Brandy. Cutting to the chase, what is your own assessment of Brandy and his ties to McLendon and D.L. Phillips? 

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I have to say I've never really studied him in any depth although I know of the general discussion on him and jogged my memory by looking back at the thread on the forum.  His belonging to the Association of Retired Intelligence Officers doesn't really surprise me.  This is probably one of the times when its best for me to say I don't have anything to offer about him and don't find him on the direct path I'm trying to follow in Tipping Point.

Sorry I don't have anything to contribute, not even an opinion.  

 

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Larry, great update with solid arguments throughout the chapter. When the final part is published I intend to return to the start and give it all a second read.

Speculation - you cite September ‘63 as being a reasonable estimate for when the plot to kill JFK really took off. As a guess, how much earlier, if at all, do you think the idea to do it might have been floated, before the wheels were put in motion?

Two hypothetical scenarios come to mind, both conjecture. The first, Harvey and Roselli spoke and made plans and talked to groups earlier in ‘63, without a consensus to move forward being made. Then, in September, when the events you cite occurred, a consensus was reached and the wheels began turning more quickly.

And a second possible scenario - certain aggrieved higher ups had knocked around the idea earlier than that. Then Harvey, in the loop, eventually went off and and made sure that whatever things needed to be ready were made ready, if needed, and in September the fuse was finally lit.

Conjecture is a nice way of phrasing me conjuring up fictional scenarios of what might have happened that year, or earlier, but I just wonder what your thoughts are on how far back the idea to murder JFK might have been considered - obviously privately - before they eventually did it

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