Another popular myth debunked...

[Joe Bauer]

On 12/19/2020 at 6:46 PM, Denny Zartman said:

The picture of the dent is in Robert Groden's "The Killing Of A President" page 41. It looks to be maybe an inch or less to the right of the rearview mirror. It sure looks like a bullet hole to me.

 

Any driver of the limo adjusting the sun visors could not miss seeing that big ugly hole indentation with surrounding lifted metal.

Looks like it was made by a powerful blow from the pointed end of a pick ax.

Obviously someone on the Warren Commision felt this starkly obvious damage anomaly was suspicious looking enough in the context of it perhaps happening during the shooting and being bullet impact caused to ask limo driver S.A. Greer directly about it.

The indentation looked as bullet caused to these persons as it does to many of us as well.

Since so much of the limo shooting findings would be earth shaking changed if the indentation was proven to be bullet caused, I am surprised anyone on the commission even dared introduce such questioning...as limited as it was to just Greer and not others who had close up access to the limo including S/A. Geis or Vaughn Ferguson.

Again, if anyone knows of any published material that shows the F.B.I. or anyone else on that scientifically serious level analyzed the indentation and it's time and place origin, I would like to see this.

 

[Pamela Brown]

On 12/28/2020 at 12:57 AM, Joe Bauer said:

I would think that Vaughn Ferguson would have been aware of the Warren Commission asking S.A. Greer about "the indentation." It is obvious that both he and his odd named lifetime friend "Raleigh Degeer Amyx" were avid collectors of JFK memorabilia so it seems logical that they had an interest in the JFK assassination itself. 

Suspicious that Ferguson wasn't called before the Warren Commission considering they wanted to know more about the limo indentation and just a basic inquiry into the limo's management responsibility would have led them to Ferguson imo.

Can anyone give me a link to a highly credible source indentation explanation that proves it's existence and origin had nothing to do with the shooting into the JFK limo on 11,22,1963 besides the preposterous one given by S.A. Geis ( or as Pam Brown mentions) Crowley?

Vaughn. Ferguson's memo was written in December, 1963.  His memo was sent to me by mistake by NARA while it was still being suppressed.  

I don't know why Ferguson did not address this in his memo, but we do know the dent was present at the time of the FBI forensic exam of the limo by Robert Frazier and his team. The exhibit is C 349.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce349.jpg

 

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

Vaughn. Ferguson's memo was written in December, 1963.  His memo was sent to me by mistake by NARA while it was still being suppressed.  

I don't know why Ferguson did not address this in his memo, but we do know the dent was present at the time of the FBI forensic exam of the limo by Robert Frazier and his team. The exhibit is C 349.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce349.jpg

 

Imagine that very noticeable solid steel windshield frame indentation hole with raised metal damage we see in the S-100-X presidential limo not being there until 11,22,1963.

If that is the day it was created, and it was caused by a bullet ( which the diameter of the indentation hole seems to match) we have a monumentally important smoking gun that changes the entire JFK limo shooting scenario as described and promoted in the Warren Report. 

Until I read of a thorough analysis scientifically conducted that proves how that indentation was created and when, and that shows it could not have been the result of an impacting bullet, it seems more reasonable than not to believe otherwise. 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Pamela Brown]

21 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Imagine that very noticeable solid steel windshield frame indentation hole with raised metal damage we see in the S-100-X presidential limo not being there until 11,22,1963.

If that is the day it was created, and it was caused by a bullet ( which the diameter of the indentation hole seems to match) we have a monumentally important smoking gun that changes the entire JFK limo shooting scenario as described and promoted in the Warren Report. 

Until I read of a thorough analysis scientifically conducted that proves how that indentation was created and when, and that shows it could not have been the result of an impacting bullet, it seems more reasonable than not to believe otherwise. 

 

 

I think a case can be made for that...

[Joe Bauer]

There is indeed more Warren Commission testimony regards the indentation in the upper windshield frame of the JFK limo.

This by Robert Frazier.

 

Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Frazier, have you now described all of your findings on the windshield of the Presidential limousine?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; that is concerning the glass itself and not the molding around the windshield.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you then move to the molding around the windshield and state what, if anything, you found there?

Mr. FRAZIER - On the strip of chrome which goes across the top of the- windshield and again on the passenger side of the windshield or the inside surface, I found a dent in the chrome which had been caused by some projectile which struck the chrome on the inside surface.

Mr. SPECTER - Was there one dent or more than one dent or what?
Mr. FRAZIER - One dent.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you identify what is depicted by a photograph heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit 349?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; this is a photograph which I took of this dent at that time, showing the damaged chrome, just to the right of the rearview mirror support at the top of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER - Did your examination of the President's limousine disclose any other holes or markings which could have conceivably been caused by a bullet striking the automobile or any part of the automobile?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.

Mr. DULLES - I wonder if I could go back just a moment to the indentation in the chrome around the windshield at the top of the windshield, but on the inside, could that have been caused by a fragment of a bullet?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, it very easily could have. It would not have been caused, for instance, by a bullet which was traveling at its full velocity from a rifle, but merely from a fragment traveling at fairly high velocity which struck the inside surface of the chrome.

Mr. DULLES - Could that have been caused by any of the fragments that you have identified as having been found on the front seat or near the front seat of the car?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; I believe it could have by either, in fact, of the two fragments of rifle bullets found in the front seat.

 

TALK ABOUT LEADING A WITNESS!

Dulles practically explains to Frazier what caused the indentation!

 

Mr. SPECTER - Now assume the same sequence with respect to exit velocity from the point of the President's neck at the same rate of 1,772 to 1,798 feet per second, and assume still further that the bullet had, the whole bullet had, struck the metal framing which you have heretofore described and identified. What effect would that have had on the metal framing?
Mr. FRAZIER - It would have torn a hole in the chrome, penetrated the framing both inside and outside of the car. I can only assume, since I haven't tested the metal of that particular car, I would assume that the bullet would completely penetrate both the chrome, the metal supporting the chrome, on the inside, and the body metal on the outside which supports the windshield of the car.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, assume the same set of factors as to the exit velocity from the President's neck. What effect would that bullet have had on any other portion of the automobile which it might have struck in the continuation of its flight?
Mr. FRAZIER - In my opinion it would have penetrated any other metal surface and, of course, any upholstery surface depending on the nature of the material as to how deep it would penetrate or how many successive layers it may have penetrated.
Mr. SPECTER - Was there any evidence in any portion of the car that the automobile was struck by a bullet which exited from the President's neck under the circumstances which I have just asked you to assume?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; there was not.
Mr. SPECTER - And had there been any such evidence would your examination of the automobile have uncovered such an indication or such evidence?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I feel that it would have.

My thoughts:

One of the two fragments found on the drivers front seat floor caused the indentation?

These fragments were from the bullet that blasted through JFK's skull, ripped through inches of brain tissue blowing out a large spray of this and blood and then blasted through skull bone again?

After going through skull bone which is quite hard "twice", these obviously slowed down fragments could then penetrate again into chrome plated steel so impactingly as to lift up the metal around it?

I would have asked Mr. Frazier, could you duplicate this damage in test firing a Carcano bullet through skull bone in and out and ahead of the chrome frame?

We are simply expected to take Frazier's word that two left over fragments of a twice bone penetrating bullet could create the kind of damage we see in the frame which looks like it was made with a powerful blow from a pick axe?

Did Frazier examine the indentation to see if any traces of the fragments might be in there? Did the "shape of the fragments match" the quite circular shape of the indentation? Did the fragments show a flattening from such an impact?

And if one of the fragments penetrated the frame that deeply and with enough impacting force to lift the metal all around it... would it then just plop back out on it's own?

And did Frazier consider lining up the actual indentation to JFK's exploding head at the time of impact? 

Two bullet fragments were found in the front seat area?

They cleared Governor Connally and his wife's own heads which were directly in front of JFK's head ( and the same height when you notice JFK was slumped down somewhat) when it was hit and the skull obliterated?

How do we know that a clean shot bullet from the Carcano ( not a super high velocity weapon ) would have gone completely through a "chrome" metal piece like the frame? Again, test a clean shot of this type bullet into the frame at 265 feet to prove this.

Was the frame hollow? Or was it solid steel? 

At least Frazier, Dulles and Specter are inferring the indentation was created during the 11,22,1963 shooting and not 2 years earlier at a car repair shop in New York.

Zapruder film Zoomed in plus SUPER SLOW ... - YouTube

www.youtube.com › watch

 

1.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Joe Bauer