Windshield bullet hole and more

[Chris Bristow]

Once I calculated the vertical trajectory from JFK's neck, and through the Bullet Hole next to the rear view mirror. It came to the parking lot of the terminal Annex Building. Someone crouching there could have made the shot. I heard David Lifton has calculated the shot coming from the sidewalk that goes under the triple underpass. So I rechecked it and found I made a mistake. I used the three and a half or four degrees slope of Elm Street to put the shooter in the terminal Annex parking lot. But the limo was not facing straight down Elm, the road bends to the left and it was actually at a 45 degree angle to the downward slope of the Plaza. The limo was not  at a 4 degree slope. I corrected for that and it placed the shooter about 15 ft lower and matched with what David Lifton had said. That's too bad because the annex parking lot is great cover with a great Escape Route. It was a level shot and the sun was behind them.

On the issue of the second bullet hole that sits much lower I think that white spot is just JFK's shirt. If you look closely at the bottom left of that white thing it is Connelly's coat that creates that line of demarcation. That would mean the white thing is behind Connelly.

[Jamey Flanagan]

Yeah, earlier in the post someone pointed out that the bullet hole was much higher than where the video has it located. In the video it has the area circled with the white thing you spoke of that I agree is Kennedy's shirt. So I was like the bullet hole was much too high to correspond to a trajectory that lines up with the throat wound. However, since then I have seen other posts commenting and seen other videos about how a bullet reacts to going through a sloping windshield. Going into a sloping windshield from the front will affect the trajectory by making the bullet go downward a certain number of degrees. And a shot from behind if it goes through a sloping windshield will make the path of the bullet travel upwards a certain number of degrees. That settles the fact once and for all at least in my mind as to whether a bullet hole came from the front or from the back. There has never been any doubt for me as to the through and through bullet hole being the result of a frontal shot but I have seen it argued by lone nutters that the hole, if there was one at all (their argument since "officially" there was no hole), originated from behind maybe from the headshot or some other Oswald shot. Anyway, after seeing actual test firings that show how a bullet going through a windshield will slope downward I have now changed my mind again as to the possibility of that being the throat shot bullet. So now I'm back to square one and I accept that a bullet entering at that high spot near the rearview mirror could have been the throat shot.

[John Butler]

Jamey F,

Only one hole.

Chris B,

David Lipton's calculations don't look right just by estimating the shot from under the bypass on Commerce.  I haven't seen what he has done and I am probably wrong, but your choice of 3 1/2 degrees agrees with David Josephs and the surveyors of Dealey Plaza in those days.  Your notion of using 3 1/2 degrees for the slope and 6 degrees for the rise, and 15% for the angle from the hole in Kennedy's throat to the hole in the windshield seems more reasonable.

Can you show (in simple language for us non-math folks) what David Lipton is talking about.  

[Mark Tyler]

On 2/16/2021 at 12:15 AM, Chris Barnard said:

At least in my unqualified opinion, I have always assumed the back shot was from a window behind, Daltex or SBD. I don't believe the throat shot from the front exits. I am open to the possibility of almost simultaneous shots hitting him at the point we see the headshot. The limo almost stops, you have to assume that's deliberate and that those involved were given a 'can't miss' scenario. 
 

I tend to agree, the back wounds to JFK and Connally only make sense as entry wounds, with the shot(s) coming from the rear.  As the limo comes out from behind the sign in the Zapruder film the victims seem to react at the same time so either the single bullet theory is correct (I'm not sure which location the shot was fired from), or there must have been two shots fired at exactly the same time.  I don't think there is a way to prove with certainty what happened (although I'm happy to be proved wrong!), but those are the obvious options that would explain the evidence we have.

The limo does indeed slow down, from about 12-13 MPH to 7-8 MPH in the 4-5 seconds after Z230.  The Muchmore film suggests that the brake lights were on at Z313:

[Chris Bristow]

14 hours ago, John Butler said:

Jamey F,

Only one hole.

Chris B,

David Lipton's calculations don't look right just by estimating the shot from under the bypass on Commerce.  I haven't seen what he has done and I am probably wrong, but your choice of 3 1/2 degrees agrees with David Josephs and the surveyors of Dealey Plaza in those days.  Your notion of using 3 1/2 degrees for the slope and 6 degrees for the rise, and 15% for the angle from the hole in Kennedy's throat to the hole in the windshield seems more reasonable.

Can you show (in simple language for us non-math folks) what David Lipton is talking about.  

If the slope of Elm and the slope from windshield to JFK are equal and opposite they cancel each other out and the line from windshield to JFK  becomes level. That means the shooter would have to be at the same hasl as JFK for a level shot. His throat was about 424ft hasl and the annex parking lot is 424 hasl as is the overpass.
  But now I think I must have made a basic mistake. The slope of the limo was lessened by facing 45 deg to the Southwest at fr 223. That should steepen the angle from windshield to throat not lower it. The result would be to raise the shooter position not lower it down to the Commerce sidewalk as I envisioned it prior.
 I also noticed that the slope from windshield to JFK may be closer to 2.5 degrees than 3 deg. Now you would think turning 45 degrees from the slope of Elm(Half way between West and South) would cut the angle in half too, but it does not work that way. The 45 deg change only lessens the slope by 1 deg. So if the windshield to throat was 2.5 deg and the 3.5 elm slope was lessened by 1 deg to 2.5 deg then the slope of the windshield to throat is back to level and the shooter could be at the annex parking lot.  I know you wanted a simpler answer but I can't seem to do it.
 The thing is a 1 deg different in the angles makes about a 7 foot elevation difference at the south knoll. To further complicate it I measured the windshield to throat from a side view of the limo. But a side view does not take into account the lateral aspect of the trajectory. That means in calculating the rise and run of the trajectory the length of the line(The run) is longer than the side view shows and that lessens the slope angle I perceived and measured from the side view.
 All these variables make it hard to locate the exact elevation of a shooter. The best I can say is it could be in the parking lot

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jamey Flanagan]

Chris Bristow, sorry but you lost me in all that math, haha! Aside from the location of the shooter, is the through and through bullet hole in the windshield responsible or could be responsible for the throat shot in your opinion? Like realistically, not like how they calculated that the magic bullet scenario was theoretically possible in the Warren Comission? Could that high bullet hole line up with the throat shot without putting a shooter in an implausible position? I have taken into account too that in the Altgens 6 JFK was already grasping his throat and bent downward. At the actual moment of impact he probably was sitting straight up and waving or just having stopped waving to the crowd. With the Stemmons Freeway sign right in the way at impact it's hard to tell exactly.

[John Butler]

8 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

The 45 deg change only lessens the slope by 1 deg. So if the windshield to throat was 2.5 deg and the 3.5 elm slope was lessened by 1 deg to 2.5 deg then the slope of the windshield to throat is back to level and the shooter could be at the annex parking lot.  I know you wanted a simpler answer but I can't seem to do it.
 The thing is a 1 deg different in the angles makes about a 7 foot elevation difference at the south knoll. To further complicate it I measured the windshield to throat from a side view of the limo. But a side view does not take into account the lateral aspect of the trajectory. That means in calculating the rise and run of the trajectory the length of the line(The run) is longer than the side view shows and that lessens the slope angle I perceived and measured from the side view.
 All these variables make it hard to locate the exact elevation of a shooter. The best I can say is it could be in the parking lot

Thanks Chris B.,

This is preferable to David Lipton's trajectory.  I just couldn't see that shot from there.  Just a rough estimate would say that a shot from Commerce Street below the railroad bridge through the windshield by the rear view mirror would have missed Kennedy and would have probably hit the Dal-Tex building.  Altgens 6 shows what looks like bullet holes on its westward face around the second floor. 

[Chris Bristow]

7 hours ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

Chris Bristow, sorry but you lost me in all that math, haha! Aside from the location of the shooter, is the through and through bullet hole in the windshield responsible or could be responsible for the throat shot in your opinion? Like realistically, not like how they calculated that the magic bullet scenario was theoretically possible in the Warren Comission? Could that high bullet hole line up with the throat shot without putting a shooter in an implausible position? I have taken into account too that in the Altgens 6 JFK was already grasping his throat and bent downward. At the actual moment of impact he probably was sitting straight up and waving or just having stopped waving to the crowd. With the Stemmons Freeway sign right in the way at impact it's hard to tell exactly.

I base JFK's sitting posture on frame 209 when you can see the very top of his head and fr 225. I estimate the throat to be 3.5 ft off the ground. I don't remember off hand the height of the bullet hole but the throat to windshield hole trajectory does lead to the annex parking lot. But if you take into account the bullet tipping down a bit from passing through the windshield then maybe you are back to the sidewalk on commerce. It all comes down to exactly how we estimate trajectories from measurements of photographs. Realistically it is possible to have come from the South knoll and created the trajectory plotted from windshield to throat. I don't see anything that makes the shot impossible, just can't be sure of the exact altitude of the shooter

[Chris Bristow]

7 hours ago, John Butler said:

Thanks Chris B.,

This is preferable to David Lipton's trajectory.  I just couldn't see that shot from there.  Just a rough estimate would say that a shot from Commerce Street below the railroad bridge through the windshield by the rear view mirror would have missed Kennedy and would have probably hit the Dal-Tex building.  Altgens 6 shows what looks like bullet holes on its westward face around the second floor. 

I am open to the possibility that the shot came from the covered truck sitting on commerce visible in the Z film. That makes the commerce location more viable imo.
Another wrinkle is the bullet would tip downward from impacting the windshield. Adding that to the parking lot trajectory may put it all the way down to the sidewalk as David Lifton has surmised. I don't know exactly how he got to the sidewalk. It could be the bullet tipping down or slightly different measurements of windshield hole to throat or both. The tipping bullet may be inescapable but that is just based on reading some expert opinions. Maybe other experts disagree.
Whether from the sidewalk or parking lot any missed shot would hit the street nearer the limo than the Dal Tex building. Since the trajectory was almost level and would hit JFK's throat when it was about 424 hasl then a missed shot would hit Elm St at a point where the street was also near 424 hasl. The hasl of street level at the Dal Tex is approx 431 hasl. The shot would have to miss JFK by flying 6 ft over his head to hit even the bottom of the Dal Tex building.
 I think both shooter locations are possible. It just depends on exactly what angles were involved.

[Jamey Flanagan]

Good stuff Chris Bristow! Excellent work!!!!

[John Butler]

14 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I am open to the possibility that the shot came from the covered truck sitting on commerce visible in the Z film. That makes the commerce location more viable imo.
Another wrinkle is the bullet would tip downward from impacting the windshield. Adding that to the parking lot trajectory may put it all the way down to the sidewalk as David Lifton has surmised. I don't know exactly how he got to the sidewalk. It could be the bullet tipping down or slightly different measurements of windshield hole to throat or both. The tipping bullet may be inescapable but that is just based on reading some expert opinions. Maybe other experts disagree.
Whether from the sidewalk or parking lot any missed shot would hit the street nearer the limo than the Dal Tex building. Since the trajectory was almost level and would hit JFK's throat when it was about 424 hasl then a missed shot would hit Elm St at a point where the street was also near 424 hasl. The hasl of street level at the Dal Tex is approx 431 hasl. The shot would have to miss JFK by flying 6 ft over his head to hit even the bottom of the Dal Tex building.
 I think both shooter locations are possible. It just depends on exactly what angles were involved.

Chris,

It's a tough problem.  It's value is it did not come from behind.  The truck on Commerce has been suggested several times if I am recalling correctly.  My limited experience with high power weapons is that the round could go just about anywhere once it struck an object.  But, that's not the situation with the hole in the mirror.  It is a through the windshield shot.  High power weapons have another consideration.  That is the force of the bullet's shock power.  Here's an example.  I walked out of a gun shop directly after another fellow walked out.  I don't know what he did, but his 30.06 rifle discharged.  The round struck a pick-up truck in it's bed and then ricchocheted into the cabin and shattered the windows of the cab.

That kind of force needs to be considered when one thinks of the hole in the windshield.  Most folks agree that the throat shot and the window hole line up.  If so,  then that round, if not a short round, should have gone through Kennedy's neck and out the back of his neck or lower down in his back creating massive damage internally.  But, most folks believe the back wound to be a shallow wound with little or no internal damage.  Hence, another unsolvable Dealey Plaza mystery. 

I watched a video of Harold Weisberg in which he stated that the killing in Dealey Plaza could not be solved do to the kind of problem just discussed.  And, there are many such problems in the record.  

Thanks for your help in trying to understand this problem.

[Jamey Flanagan]

Just out of curiosity, are there any of Connally's wounds that are even debated as to being frontal entry wounds? I've been studying this particular homicide and all that it entails for over 30 years, since I was 11 or 12, and it just hit me that no one ever really discusses JC's wounds when not talking about the single bullet theory. Now, I'm not suggesting that the windshield shot could be responsible for any of JC's wounds so this is just a little off topic. Just out of curiosity I got to wondering if all of the Governor's wounds were definitively back to front wounds. Of course that back shot seems to be one of entry, and I've never heard it debated that it did not pass through and exit near his nipple. I'm not exactly sure this same shot caused the wrist wound but I'm open to the possibility. I do not believe one bullet (and since we all know just how ludicrous the magic bullet theory is, so by one bullet I do not mean one passing through JFK first) created the back wound entry and exit, the wrist entry and exit and the thigh wound or whatever. Maybe one bullet caused 2 of the three but I don't see it causing all 3. Anyway, all of these seem to be shots from behind and I'm pretty sure I have never heard an argument to the contrary. If that is the case then the idea that the shooters from in front were merely emergency, shoot if necessary, plan B shooters seems to have a bit more legs.