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WAS THE LIMO FACING STRAIGHT ON ELM ST AT 313?


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Every reference to the trajectory of the head shot at 313 has the limo aligned and pointing straight down Elm parallel to the lane markers, and the Nix film verifies JFK's head was at a near perfect 90 degree angle to Zapruder's camera at 313.      
But the Z image at 312 shows Zapruder was not perpendicular to JFK's head. In fact it isn't until about frame 323 that Zapruder is perpendicular to the backseat.
  In the graphic on top the red lines of sight show Z's angle to the limo that the nix film verify and the X on Elm St show  to be the location of JFK's head at 313. JFK's head and the back seat should be perpendicular to Z at 313.
  The blue lines of sight represent what we actually see in the Z film. At 313 Z was much closer to being perpendicular to where the hood meets the windshield. That is about a 6 degree difference. This means the limo was not facing straight down Elm but had veered to the right by 6 or 7 degrees.
   I don't know how big a deal this is but the trajectory of the bullet into the limo would be approx 6 degrees more than previously calculated. The relationship between Jackie's and JFK's heads based on the Z film would also be a little off. And the path through JFK's head would change by 6 degrees.
 
There are two proofs in frame 312 below. The blue lines with arrows show the vertical frame of the side windows on both sides of the limo. The closer one lines up to the left of the far one and this alone proves Z's perpendicular line to the limo at 312 was still forward of those side windows. (The windows curve inward so it is best to compare their bases. although from Z's position the curve would make them appear even closer to aligning). 
The 2nd type of proof is illustrated by the B&L image of the limo in the middle. The thick red line shows the perpendicular line of sight through the limo. The red lines on either side all lean towards the thick line between them.
But the lines on 312  all lean to the right and don't approach vertical until you reach the windshield.(The reason the edge of the frames leans in is due to a correction for the distortion caused by Z's camera tilting down. It only changes the tilt a few degrees and serves to lessen the effect on the right half of the screen. It does not create the effect nor cancel it out.)
 Just as a side note if you look at the B&L image of the limo you may notice the blue lines on the bubble top parts show the photographer was actually standing in line with the jump seats(Thick blue line), but it is the thick red line that is perpendicular with the limo. This shows the same type of misalignment in 312. The limo in the B&L image is sitting at a slight angle to the photographer. So the photographer is facing the jump seats but the limo is not at a 90 degree angle to the camera and that shifts the line of sight that is perpendicular to the right of the thick blue line.342875134_finalcomplow.thumb.jpg.5f84321f4ec1cc0020d775d6c63797fd.jpg
 

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9 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:


   That is about a 6 degree difference. This means the limo was not facing straight down Elm but had veered to the right by 6 or 7 degrees.
 
 

Chris,

Do you mean the limo traveling west down Elm St within the lane stripes starting from a specific point starts to veer to the right (northern direction) and reaches that degree change when JFK's position within the limo reaches extant z313?

Veer.png

Edited by Chris Davidson
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5 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Chris,

Do you mean the limo traveling west down Elm St within the lane stripes starting from a specific point starts to veer to the right (northern direction) and reaches that degree change when JFK's position within the limo reaches extant z313?

Veer.png

Chris, no I haven't mapped out the limos movements prior to frame 312. The distance it travels on Elm from 312 up to 323 seems to be consistent with JFK's head lining up at 323. So it seems to be 6° off from 312 up to 323.

I have noticed in the past that in Alt6 the line of sight through the limo has it pointing five or so degrees to the right. But of course the photo shows it is straight and lines up with the lane markers. So I have assumed in the past I just made a mistake. But the window alignment in 312 can't be a mistake. So I'll take another look at it alt 6.

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  • 1 month later...

The limo being misaligned on Elm St by 6 degrees has some implications for the possible shot from the West end of the knoll fence and for the theory about the head shot coming from the South knoll.
In the diagram of the limo below the black line shows the 35 degree angle to JFK from the West end of the knoll fence(It doesn't seem to clear the side window but I may just be a bit off).
The blue line represents the 29 degree angle corrected trajectory to account for the 6 degree misalignment of the limo to that portion of Elm St.  At 29 degrees is does not clear the window. If JFK's head was positioned at the center of the seat towards the front the shot would not work. The red dotted line shows where his head would have to be for the shot to work. everything I can determine about his head position puts him there. For the gunman to have a clear shot they would have to be standing about 60 feet farther East along the fence.

The 313 head shot from the South knoll postulated by Sherry Fiester has a similar problem. The image on the right and the red line is from her documentary. The blue line is the 6 degree corrected trajectory. Depending on JFK's head location the 6 degree correction would make the shot impossible.
  If the shooter moved West to compensate the shot is obscured by the Franzens. You may be able to slip a shot between the Franzens and unknown couple but that is really tight. And the round would only be about 4.5 feet off the ground as it past them.
 The last implication depends on how JFK's leftward head rotation is determined. If you judge it from Z's viewpoint you will get the correct measurement as to how JFK's head sits in relation to Elm. But if you took the approx 25 degree rotation seen by Z and related that to the limo by having his head rotated 25 degrees relative to the limo, that is a mistake. His head was 25 degrees off the direction of Elm St. but when you place him in the limo you have to increase it to 31 degrees to account for limo's misalignment on Elm.
      An 8 or 9 degree trajectory from the TSB to the limo has always been the standard but we should be adding 6 degrees to that.
Lastly in answer to Chris Davidson's question, at frame 292 the limo is not misaligned. It seem to start gradually after 292. Maybe Greer looking over his right shoulder caused him to veer right some.

6 deg trajectory comps.jpg

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In the posted figure 11-19, JFK is shown seated in the middle of the seat over the drive shaft hump and John and Nellie Connally's seats are shown as too far outboard (towards the exterior).  I understand this drawing may not be supposed to be completely accurate, but the alignment is crucial to the other angles.  JFK is (in my estimate) at least 1-1 1/2 foot too far to the middle of the car and both the Connallys are at least 1 foot too close to the side of the car, even though they would no longer be sitting up in the positions shown but lying across the seats with both their heads behind and lower than the top of the front seat (leftward).  JFK's head had indeed gone far to the left but he had not moved his lower body from his original position which was touching or virtually touching the interior panels on the right side of the car.  Jacqueline had actually started to move to her right and had moved her entire body somewhat at an angle towards the center of the car in an effort to assist/see what was wrong with JFK.

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2 hours ago, Richard Price said:

In the posted figure 11-19, JFK is shown seated in the middle of the seat over the drive shaft hump and John and Nellie Connally's seats are shown as too far outboard (towards the exterior).  I understand this drawing may not be supposed to be completely accurate, but the alignment is crucial to the other angles.  JFK is (in my estimate) at least 1-1 1/2 foot too far to the middle of the car and both the Connallys are at least 1 foot too close to the side of the car, even though they would no longer be sitting up in the positions shown but lying across the seats with both their heads behind and lower than the top of the front seat (leftward).  JFK's head had indeed gone far to the left but he had not moved his lower body from his original position which was touching or virtually touching the interior panels on the right side of the car.  Jacqueline had actually started to move to her right and had moved her entire body somewhat at an angle towards the center of the car in an effort to assist/see what was wrong with JFK.

Yes i agree. I think they didn't bother creating a leaning JFK and just shoved him over to where they assume his head was. And the jump seats are too far out. I did lines of sight from Muchmore and Moorman and it put him right in the middle. But his forward lean throws it off a bit and it will make him look like he is a more to his left.
Interesting though they do put the limo  3 or 4 degrees to the right. And when they show a comp of Muchmore's and Z's lines of sight they have Z at a 9 degree angle to JFK's head. According to their direction of travel it should be 3 or 4 degrees so I am confused at this point.
But one thing for sure the line of sight they show through the x and to the TSB also passes less than a foot in front of the Franzens and less than 5 feet off the ground. And because of the way they are lined up it would come that close to each of them.

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4 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

@Chris Bristow did you see the Alek Hidell vids on Youtube? The South Knoll trajectories are simulated:

 

Yes thanks. There is still things to unravel there. I did just find that they also put the limo crooked on Elm but by 3 or 4 degrees. So the shot still might work, although the Franzen Family are so damn close to the trajectory that it gives me pause.

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8 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

Yes thanks. There is still things to unravel there. I did just find that they also put the limo crooked on Elm but by 3 or 4 degrees. So the shot still might work, although the Franzen Family are so damn close to the trajectory that it gives me pause.

It's way outside of my field of expertise, so I can't corroborate whether the trajectories and limo position are correct but, I found the video to be very thought provoking. 

Cheers

Chris

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