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Someone recently contacted me about the conflicting stories of people seen exiting the rear of the TSBD at the time of the assassination and I'm interesting in seeing thoughts as to what the group feels are the most well documented or corroborated sources which do claim unknown individuals were at the rear of the building in the minutes following the shooting.  One of the details that has bothered me in the past is that as best I can tell the rear doors opened on a loading dock and any individual exiting would have needed to go to the end of the elevated dock, down a short set of stairs and then "away" - or loitering in the area as one police officer reported. 

There has been so much controversy over this rear exit issue that I'd like to see the most current ideas as to which, if any, of the reports should really be considered substantive - which of course would also mean that the source could be confirmed as having been in that area and having described something consistent.

-- thanks, Larry

 

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1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

Someone recently contacted me about the conflicting stories of people seen exiting the rear of the TSBD at the time of the assassination and I'm interesting in seeing thoughts as to what the group feels are the most well documented or corroborated sources which do claim unknown individuals were at the rear of the building in the minutes following the shooting.  One of the details that has bothered me in the past is that as best I can tell the rear doors opened on a loading dock and any individual exiting would have needed to go to the end of the elevated dock, down a short set of stairs and then "away" - or loitering in the area as one police officer reported. 

There has been so much controversy over this rear exit issue that I'd like to see the most current ideas as to which, if any, of the reports should really be considered substantive - which of course would also mean that the source could be confirmed as having been in that area and having described something consistent.

-- thanks, Larry

 

Larry,

Any account of the rear exit would have to include James Worrell.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/worrell.htm

Mr. SPECTER - Will you mark that "Y" where you stopped and rested and tell us how long you stopped there?
(Witness marking.)
Mr. WORRELL - How long?
Mr. SPECTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. WORRELL - I was there approximately 3 minutes before I saw this man come out the back door here.

Mr. SPECTER - What did he --
Mr. WORRELL - He wasn't holding nothing when he was running. He was just running.
Mr. SPECTER - What did you observe him do if, anything?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, when he ran out here, he ran along the side of the Depository Building and then when he got --

CE 362 is a photograph of the loading dock.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=982&tab=page

A long time ago, I read the account of a citizen who was stationed at a sawhorse, or a barricade of some sort and was assigned by a policeman to watch the back door to make sure no one came out, but for the life of me, I can't remember his name.

Steve Thomas

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Worrell's statement is a good example of why I always wonder about the descriptions that don't mention the loading dock, its not like you could run directly out a door and away....I recall that other story as well although I've never seen anything to corroborate it and why a policeman would assign a civilian to do that escapes me...especially since there is no record of it nor any sign that the officer checked back later (did he expect the civilian to tackle an armed shooter running out the door or just point out which direction he had run off?).  Both of these are examples of why what might or might not have happened at the rear of the building remains so frustrating.

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I looked into this a bunch a couple of years back, and present what I discovered in Chapter 4: Pinning the Tale on the Oswald. 

While Worrell claimed he saw someone run out of the back of the building, the WC countered this with the testimony of James Romack, who said he watched the back of the building for minutes after the shots.

There was huge hole in Romack's testimony, however. He didn't recall seeing Vickie Adams and Sandy Styles run out of the back of the building. Well, if he missed two cute chicks running out of the building within a minute or two of the shooting, it follows that he could have missed some nondescript guy running out of the back of the building. 

FWIW, here's a map of the Houston loading dock. Note that there are two sets of steps from the dock--one that leads down into the area where the trucks park, and one that leads directly out onto Houston. I suspect Romack was watching the door from the middle of the dock and not paying much attention to the stairs leading the other way. 

image.png.e0d26d6e05de38af23b0f5a5cbbf5c64.png

Edited by Pat Speer
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Thanks Pat, it always drives me nuts when the cops did interviews and didn't even take the trouble to record positions on maps such as this....a second question, did anyone testify or talk about seeing the two women come out the back?  I've been told Frazier talked about seeing Oswald come out the back, go down Houston and then off to the bus station - the timing on that troubles me but does he or anyone else talk about seeing the two women come out??   This is an area I have not visited for a very long time.

I'm rereading Pat's section 4; if you have not you can find it at:

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter4b%3A"theso-calledevidence"

 

 

Edited by Larry Hancock
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4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I looked into this a bunch a couple of years back, and present what I discovered in Chapter 4: Pinning the Tale on the Oswald. 

While Worrell claimed he saw someone run out of the back of the building, the WC countered this with the testimony of James Romack, who said he watched the back of the building for minutes after the shots.

There was huge hole in Romack's testimony, however. He didn't recall seeing Vickie Adams and Sandy Styles run out of the back of the building. Well, if he missed two cute chicks running out of the building within a minute or two of the shooting, it follows that he could have missed some nondescript guy running out of the back of the building. 

FWIW, here's a map of the Houston loading dock. Note that there are two sets of steps from the dock--one that leads down into the area where the trucks park, and one that leads directly out onto Houston. I suspect Romack was watching the door from the middle of the dock and not paying much attention to the stairs leading the other way. 

image.png.e0d26d6e05de38af23b0f5a5cbbf5c64.png

I would look for this myself but will loose my connection in about 45 minutes to an hour due to the next rolling blackout and I want to check email before I do.  I cant get this to enlarge.  I've seen it before and wonder about these things.  Loading Dock is mislabeled.  The actual loading dock is the triangle to the right.  If I remember right to the immediate left of the east (left facing in the diagram) freight elevator. That's an overhead door to the ground floor shipping area.  Just past it is a walk through door.  Out the elevator through one into the dock, not seen from Houston to the door in the picture.  Still obscured from the Houston/Elm intersection area and Houston a ways's north.  More later or in the morning.

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Ron, if you look about 80% though Pat's excellent piece that I linked to  you will find he has laid out two photos of the rear which he mapped to the building plan,  the elevated loading dock was completely across the rear and had built in steps both on Houston street and on is other side as well.  Which is why its hard for me to see a witness not mentioning the dock, the steps etc at all.  The rear is not at all like it is now and was built up on the south side as well...there are some good photos of that online as well.   I always had to show photos of the the back and south when I did tours because without them  you really don't get an accurate picture...

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On 2/16/2021 at 11:09 AM, Larry Hancock said:

There has been so much controversy over this rear exit issue that I'd like to see the most current ideas as to which, if any, of the reports should really be considered substantive - which of course would also mean that the source could be confirmed as having been in that area and having described something consistent.

-- thanks, Larry

 

Larry,

Another small lead, and something else to think about...

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/romack.htm

 

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch those stairs?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you watch them after you saw the policeman leave?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, I watched them all the time until someone arrived, and the only time I did take my back off, turn my back to the building was Sam Pate with his KBOX news, he arrived before any of the police or anyone.
Mr. BELIN. Is that KBOX
Mr. ROMACK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is that a radio or television station?
Mr. ROMACK. It is a radio station.

 

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any employees walk up the back way?
Mr. ROMACK. There was two other gentlemen which I never said anything.about, that taken over. They were FBI or something standing right here at the very entrance, and just stood there.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing again to the back stairway that leads up from the street to the dock on the north side of the building?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Testimony of D.V. Harkness. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, volume VI, p. 312, as cited in the History Matters Archive, http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol6_0161b.htm

A Sergeant in the Dallas Police Department for a little over 17 years, D.V. Harkness was responsible for supervising the traffic officers from Main and Field along the parade route to Elm and Houston. Harkness was on a three-wheeled motorcycle and at the time of the shots, he drove to Main and Industrial to see if he could see anyone fleeing the area. Seeing none, he drove to the front of the TSBD and along the fence that runs alongside the Elm St. Extension. There he encountered Amos Euins. After hearing what Euins had to say about seeing a rifle in a window, Harkness put him on the back of his motorcycle and delivered him to Inspector Sawyer’s car. He then went around to the back of the TSBD. Warren Commission Belin asked him if there was anyone else in the back of the building. Harkness answered, “There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service..” Harkness remained at the back of the building until a squad relieved him.

 

Who were these plain-clothed gentlemen who were not police and have never been identified?

Steve Thomas

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3 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Larry,

Another small lead, and something else to think about...

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/romack.htm

 

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch those stairs?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you watch them after you saw the policeman leave?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, I watched them all the time until someone arrived, and the only time I did take my back off, turn my back to the building was Sam Pate with his KBOX news, he arrived before any of the police or anyone.
Mr. BELIN. Is that KBOX
Mr. ROMACK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is that a radio or television station?
Mr. ROMACK. It is a radio station.

 

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any employees walk up the back way?
Mr. ROMACK. There was two other gentlemen which I never said anything.about, that taken over. They were FBI or something standing right here at the very entrance, and just stood there.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing again to the back stairway that leads up from the street to the dock on the north side of the building?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Testimony of D.V. Harkness. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, volume VI, p. 312, as cited in the History Matters Archive, http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol6_0161b.htm

A Sergeant in the Dallas Police Department for a little over 17 years, D.V. Harkness was responsible for supervising the traffic officers from Main and Field along the parade route to Elm and Houston. Harkness was on a three-wheeled motorcycle and at the time of the shots, he drove to Main and Industrial to see if he could see anyone fleeing the area. Seeing none, he drove to the front of the TSBD and along the fence that runs alongside the Elm St. Extension. There he encountered Amos Euins. After hearing what Euins had to say about seeing a rifle in a window, Harkness put him on the back of his motorcycle and delivered him to Inspector Sawyer’s car. He then went around to the back of the TSBD. Warren Commission Belin asked him if there was anyone else in the back of the building. Harkness answered, “There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service..” Harkness remained at the back of the building until a squad relieved him.

 

Who were these plain-clothed gentlemen who were not police and have never been identified?

Steve Thomas

Not Secret Service.

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Unfortunately these are the same loose ends we have had for decades now, which leaves us with people (including two women and possibly Oswald or somebody else who just walked down Houston) who came out the back that Romack didn't see or notice - so was he really watching and when did he really start?  And two or more mysterious people handing out at the rear who weren't Secret Service, Police or FBI...and who weren't positioned to watch for someone escaping the building but doing something more like shielding it from actual law enforcement officers - strangely reminiscent of the mystery guys behind the fence who turned officers away early on in the parking area.  

The only people missing from quickly sealing the rear entrance and intercepting potential attackers appear to have the DPD. 

 

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1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Larry,

Another small lead, and something else to think about...

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/romack.htm

 

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch those stairs?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you watch them after you saw the policeman leave?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, I watched them all the time until someone arrived, and the only time I did take my back off, turn my back to the building was Sam Pate with his KBOX news, he arrived before any of the police or anyone.
Mr. BELIN. Is that KBOX
Mr. ROMACK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is that a radio or television station?
Mr. ROMACK. It is a radio station.

 

 

At the 57 second mark of this video, you see what the KBOX mobile unit looked like:

https://www.facebook.com/holstead/videos/10201912471446075/

Steve Thomas

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17 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

At the 57 second mark of this video, you see what the KBOX mobile unit looked like:

https://www.facebook.com/holstead/videos/10201912471446075/

Steve Thomas

And, at the 6 second mark, and the 12 second mark of this video, you can see the KBOX mobile unit in the railroad yards behind the TSBD:

https://www.facebook.com/SamPate/videos/10151084842461584/

Steve Thomas

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Here is a 01/26/1970 interview by Al Chapman with Sam Pate.

This was uploaded to the Education Forum by Bart Kamp in March of 2019 in a thread entitled, "Sam Pate"

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25668-sam-pate/

Pate speaks of monitoring the Dallas Police Department's Channel 2 radio frequency, and seeing a puff of smoke arising from " a guttered area almost at the entrance to the Triple Underpass".

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25668-sam-pate/

image.png.0327f114bba4504912f8f83599566cca.png

image.png.910f58255dd434141fe2e6a8b7270bcb.png

Steve Thomas

 

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Well done Ron, if only the investigators had been using these sorts of diagrams to show where the purported witnesses where and where they saw people - and their movements - it would eliminate so much of the guess work we have to do.

Still I suspect some folks here may be surprised about the actual nature of the rear of the building, the multiple doors, stairs etc....good stuff.

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