TSBD Rear Exit

[Ron Bulman]

Sam Pate's statement to the FBI on October 1964 is much more enlightening than his 1970 interview.  In it it's quite apparent he saw Worrell running to/on Pacific.  And he says he saw policemen at the back door when he parked 40-50 Feet from it, he thinks about four minutes after the shots.  Thanks again to David Boylan for the link.

showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)

 

[Ron Bulman]

One thing I can't figure put is how James Worrell and Officer Barnett did not see each other or why neither mentioned such in their testimony.

Worrell says he was turning  and starting to run north on Houston from Elm and Houston as the third shot (of four he said he heard) went off.  He ran up the sidewalk next to the TSBD to the back of it then crossed over Houston and stopped to catch his breath.  He said he was there approximately three minutes when a man came bustling out the back door and ran south on Houston.

Barnett said after the second shot he thought it came from high up, with the third shot he though it came from the top of "that" building.  He turned and ran north on Houston, looking first for the fire escape then on 20' past the back of the building.  He saw officers searching railroad cars west of the building and ""So since this was the only fire escape and there were officers down here watching the this back door, I returned to the front.  He estimates he was back to the front 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot.

It sounds like Worrell may have started running a couple of seconds before Barnett.  From Worrell's description of being 5-6' from the front of the TSBD he was at the back of the crowd.  Barnett was in front of it.  But still how did he not see Worrell running in front of him or stopped on the opposite sidewalk from the TSBD?  If Worrell was possibly stopped across the street already how could he not see a cop running up the street behind him.  Or almost directly across the street from him observing the fire escape and back of the building for up to maybe a minute?

If either saw the other why would they not mention it in their testimony?

Edited March 3, 2021 by Ron Bulman

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

It sounds like Worrell may have started running a couple of seconds before Barnett. 

Barnett may have been concentrating on looking up towards the top floors as he ran north on Houston, and missed seeing Worrell as he crossed the street. One person that probably saw Barnett was Baker as he rode north on Houston. Seeing a fellow uniformed officer start to run north was probably why Baker ran past the TSBD entrance and took a look north himself before returning to the front door.

[Ron Bulman]

On 3/1/2021 at 10:45 PM, Tony Krome said:

Barnett may have been concentrating on looking up towards the top floors as he ran north on Houston, and missed seeing Worrell as he crossed the street. One person that probably saw Barnett was Baker as he rode north on Houston. Seeing a fellow uniformed officer start to run north was probably why Baker ran past the TSBD entrance and took a look north himself before returning to the front door.

Barnett states in his testimony he was looking up as he ran.  While focused on the roof and fire escape initially, one would have to look around at ground level as he ran to see where he was going.  Would someone running in front of him not catch his eye?  He then ran on past the fire escape to 20' beyond the back of the building.  Where he observed it, the east side of it including the fire escape, and the rail road yard.  But he never noticed Worrell standing across the street, by himself.  and Worrell never noticed him either.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Ron Bulman

[Ron Bulman]

Pat Speer made an interesting observation earlier in this thread about Worrell that applies to the other witnesses statements/testimonies I've read recently regarding the back of the TSBD.

None of them saw Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles run out the back dock door and around the back of the building to the rail road yards.

Two of them would not have.  Sam Pate and DPD Sargent D.V. Harkness didn't arrive in the area until 4-5 minutes after the last shot.

But Worrell ran what 50-60, maybe 70 yards (maybe 40) after the 3rd shot to almost directly across the street from where they would have come out, and stood there catching his breath for three minutes.  It doesn't take most young men a minute to run 70 yards or less.  Vicki said the were down the stairs heading out the back door a minute after the last shot.  Yet Worrell did see a man burst out the door and run south on Houston 3 minutes after the last shot.

James Romack from 125 - 175 then 75 yards away on north Houston saw Officer Barnett running north on Houston from Elm shortly after the third shot towards him.  He observed Barnett observing the area for likely close to a minute after he ran 20 feet past the back of the building.  He never saw anyone else until Sam Pate arrived.  No skirts or dress tails swishing in the breeze as the women ran out the back door, down the stairs and around the back.  Remember, women didn't wear pant's or slacks in public at the time. 

Barnett ran north on Houston from Elm after the third shot.  Like Worrell less than a minute to get there.  He got back to the front door in 2 1/2 minutes, "Maybe between 2 1/2 - 3 minutes".  So he hung around observing at least 30 seconds to a minute.  But he didn't see Vicki an Sandra run out and around.

Or at least none of them mentioned it.  A little more than a bit odd.

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Ron Bulman

[Ron Bulman]

The most important thing I came across reading the back door witnesses testimony and statement in one case is about officers, FBI or Secret Service guarding the back door.  Though never being identified as such.   

Of the five such I've read of four mention something about this.  Taken in conjunction with reports of Secret Service agents on the grassy knoll, denied by the Secret Service, this seems important.

In chronological order.

James Worrell ran at the 3rd shot from the front corner of the TSBD to the back of it and across the street.  After about 3 minutes the only person he reported seeing was a man busting out the back door to run south on Houston before he went on to Pacific and away.

DPD Officer Barnett ran after the 3rd shot from the curb of Elm and Houston north on Houston to 20' past the TSBD.  There he observed "officers down here watching the this back door, I returned back around to the front...".  All in 2 1/2, "maybe" three minutes, in his estimate.

James Romack, after seeing Barnett run towards him from 175 - 125 yards away, then watching him and the back door of the TSBD from 75 yards away he told Belin of the Warren Commission, "There was two other gentlemen (in suits?) which I never said anything about, that taken over.  They were FBI or Something standing right here at the very entrance, and just stood there."  Belin:  Your pointing again to the back stairway that leads up from the street to the dock on the north side of the building?  Romack:  Right.  B - See anyone else?  R - No sir, other than all the motorcycle officers and squad cars.  They started coming in, I would say, in 4 minutes From The Time This Happened.

Romack moved a construction barricade to let in KBOX radio reporter Sam Pate's mobile unit.  Pate told the FBI in March 1964:  Mr. Pate estimated that within approximately four minutes after he first heard of a shooting he was at the rear of the TSBD.  He stated there were policemen entering the rear door of the TSBD. 

DPD Sargent D.V. Harkness after going south on Main to check the Industrial area for anyone escaping, from his first impression returned to the grassy knoll area where he encountered Amos Eunis, made notes, then broadcast information on Channel 2 to headquarters and other officers about a shooter in the TSBD at 12:36 per the record.  He then dropped off Eunis at the front door area and proceeded to the back of the building.  "Was there anyone there when you got there?"  "There were some Secret Service agents, I didn't get them identified.  They told me they were Secret Service". . .  7 or 8 minutes after 12:30?

 

[Larry Hancock]

So basically the unidentified man running away came out of the building almost instantly after the shooting, there were no other people there then but the unidentified individuals who never showed any ID were there within minutes and then faded away fairly quickly, apparently not being there when the women exited?    Good work in the timing Ron, very important.  Just by itself it seems to suggest somebody left extremely quickly and before the others arrived and then they left - maybe no longer caring or wanting to be seen.  Everything else that happened occurred later - and I'm guessing these times may be quicker than they were in reality, people often seem to think events happen quicker than they really do.

So does it boil down to someone (how could it be Oswald if he were on the sixth floor) coming out of the rear extremely fast and the unknown people arriving to late to intercept him and then leaving - not caring about anyone else?

Its an interesting discussion and all driven by the actual timeline which too often does not get parsed out like you have here.

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

13 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

So basically the unidentified man running away came out of the building almost instantly after the shooting, there were no other people there then but the unidentified individuals who never showed any ID were there within minutes and then faded away fairly quickly, apparently not being there when the women exited?    Good work in the timing Ron, very important.  Just by itself it seems to suggest somebody left extremely quickly and before the others arrived and then they left - maybe no longer caring or wanting to be seen.  Everything else that happened occurred later - and I'm guessing these times may be quicker than they were in reality, people often seem to think events happen quicker than they really do.

So does it boil down to someone (how could it be Oswald if he were on the sixth floor) coming out of the rear extremely fast and the unknown people arriving to late to intercept him and then leaving - not caring about anyone else?

Its an interesting discussion and all driven by the actual timeline which too often does not get parsed out like you have here.

 

 

Thank you very much Larry.  Your opinion and thoughts are most important.  Actually the guy Worrell claims to have seen busting out the door and running south on Houston happened he says about 3 minutes after the last shot.

There's no way anyone can know for sure but from what reading I've done I don't think Oswald went out the back.  Maybe he was supposed to, but that's speculation, for another time.

There is one more <back door> (side door, onto Houston) witness.  He deserves his own post, thanks to Jim Garrison.

[Larry Hancock]

I tend to agree Oswald went out the front....to a large extent because I don't think he was involved in the shooting. Which does not mean somebody else in the building was and prepared to get down and out very quickly.  Which is by the way why hostage rescue teams often succeed - because they are so totally prepared that they move before other people can react. 

Of course it would be best if such a person actually worked in the building.  Not totally necessary but helpful in the event someone asks questions...would apply to any employee coming out the back door.

Which of course still leaves us with the mystery "officers" who show up and then just fade away....still having a hard time thinking they were legitimate. But if not, were they "late" or did something that was planned just not happen...

[Ron Bulman]

32 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

I tend to agree Oswald went out the front....to a large extent because I don't think he was involved in the shooting. Which does not mean somebody else in the building was and prepared to get down and out very quickly.  Which is by the way why hostage rescue teams often succeed - because they are so totally prepared that they move before other people can react. 

Of course it would be best if such a person actually worked in the building.  Not totally necessary but helpful in the event someone asks questions...would apply to any employee coming out the back door.

Which of course still leaves us with the mystery "officers" who show up and then just fade away....still having a hard time thinking they were legitimate. But if not, were they "late" or did something that was planned just not happen...

Your reading my mind, again, regarding the possibility of inside help.  But regarding the back door Richard Randolph Carr should be considered.  Dismissed or unacknowledged by everyone from Mc Adams to Posner he was not by Garrison.

[Larry Hancock]

In my many years of leading plaza tours during the conferences I would sometimes take people down to Carr's purported location and ask them what they could see from that point - repeating his remarks.   The problem was always that neither I nor anyone else could make out sort of details he described from that distance, nor get the views that he was describing.

That made me very hesitant to accept his story, unlike other remarks about people in windows from observers much closer - which did seem to make sense from duplicating their locations - in the end I wasn't able to go with his story. 

I'd recommend it as an exercise for anyone in or going to Dallas.

 

[Ron Bulman]

13 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

In my many years of leading plaza tours during the conferences I would sometimes take people down to Carr's purported location and ask them what they could see from that point - repeating his remarks.   The problem was always that neither I nor anyone else could make out sort of details he described from that distance, nor get the views that he was describing.

That made me very hesitant to accept his story, unlike other remarks about people in windows from observers much closer - which did seem to make sense from duplicating their locations - in the end I wasn't able to go with his story. 

I'd recommend it as an exercise for anyone in or going to Dallas.

 

Larry, about 25 years ago I did exactly what you suggest.  Took a friend interested in the assassination and explained what I'd read about Carr at that point, basically from Jim Marr's Crossfire.  We went to both the front corner of the County Courts building and the window in the sixth floor museum next to the enclosed snipers lair (1st 2 windows), the third window west of  the east corner, where Carr said he saw the man on the sixth floor.  You can't see one from he other.  I wondered if being on the 7th floor of the building under construction at Houston an Commerce might change the perspective.  But, from the TSBD the corner of the Dallas County Jail/Sheriff's office is in the way.

I still couldn't totally dismiss him, why would he make this up?  It didn't seem to be for fortune or fame.  His story still seemed compelling and intriguing with one aspect confirmed, the heavy set man on the 6th floor of the TSBD in the tan sports coat seen by another (others?).  I'd not read Carr's testimony at the Shaw trial then, but of it at that time.  I'd read references to it.  But I'd wondered, how could he be sure of horn rimmed glasses from 150-200 yards away?

Then just 5-10 years ago somewhere on this world wide web I came across a small/from a distance picture of the courts building under construction in 1963.  The construction stairs were on the outside of the building under construction, sticking out a dozen or maybe more feet from it.  I wondered, could this have altered Carr's perspective to see the TSBD window?  Later I stumbled across a closer clearer picture of this.  Still no way to know if it did.  But it makes me wonder still.

The I got to thinking.  It's not clear when he saw the rest of what he claimed to me.  After he got to the ground heading north on Houston himself?  After the shots he headed down, as would have anyone on the 6th floor of the TSBD.  it would have taken any of them a minute to two to get down 6/7 floors.  Did he see the men come out the back door, the Rambler, the Latin/Spanish/Cuban man, 2 others get in it and take off.  The heavyset man from the 6th floor come out (and cross the street?) coming down Houston towards him, where he got a closer view of him and his horn rimmed glasses?  Or did he follow him up commerce and see him get in a waiting Rambler station wagon at Record St. that took off heading north...  

It does get deep and confusing.  But I still can't dismiss it completely in relation to the 6th floor or back door.

In just the first page of this old thread Duke Lane does a pretty thorough job destroying Carr.  But, Bill Kelly and Don Jeffries dissent.  I don't know.  But it still nag's at me.

Richard Randolph Carr - JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum (ipbhost.com)

[Tony Krome]

A little perspective;

You have just fired a high powered weapon from a position directly above three police officers OR you are complicit and know that a high powered weapon was fired from a position directly above three police officers.

You escape by making your way out the rear door by the loading dock onto Houston Street.

Which way do you run on Houston Street?

Towards the police or away from the police?

Mr. WORRELL - Well, the way he was running, I would say he was in his late twenties or middle - I mean early thirties. Because he was fast moving on. 

The next question is .... why run? Professionals walk and blend.

[Larry Hancock]

Ron, there are a really good series of FBI documents on their investigation of Carr (they come from Malcolm Blunt's collection) - from his first remarks which were extremely sensational but not given to law enforcement either DPD or the FBI (unlike someone like Ed Hoffman who saw something even less sensational than Carr claimed).  He expressed them in a job interview and someone there did report it because he was so positive in what he was saying.

I can't link the documents directly here but if you email me I might be able to forward them...

Yet when the FBI interviewed him he recanted virtually everything - yet turned around and continued to tell different versions of the story. That was making some impression so the FBI really got involved in testing it, going to the locations he described and also being unable to see what he had reported. Because he was totally contradicting the official story they put a lot of time into it.

Of course he would not be the only persona to create - Jim Hicks comes to mind with a story which kept changing but ultimately had to be dropped when he admitted he had picked it up from a guy in a bar in Dallas.

Did Carr see something...possibly.  Did he see the details he described, I very much doubt it.  Certainly he did not see a man in the window that he could identify in so much detail he would later see him on the street.  But I doubt his story - like Hicks - will ever really fade away, its just too much of a good thing. 

Personally I think some of the reports of men in the windows (not Oswald), are much stronger and it does seem to me that one person very quickly exited the rear of the building (not Oswald).  Combine that with the mysterious men that showed up to late to catch him but went away too quickly to provide any sort of rational security at the rear exits and I think we have something that points to one or more conspiracy actors inside the building - very possibly with inside assistance of some sort (very possibly either leveraged or fooled into being tools).

[Steve Thomas]

The men at the back door... A couple of questions...

1) Has anyone other than Chauncey Holt ever come forward to say that imposters were issued fake Secret Service credentials? Anyone in the mob milieu?

2) What would the mens' purpose have been?

2a) To prevent anyone from going in?

If someone would have entered the back door and seen Oswald, so what? He worked there. That would actually have been bad for someone trying to set Oswald up. It would have given him an alibi. If an employee walked in and saw a stranger, the stranger would have been challenged. If an employee tried to walk in the back door and two strangers told him he couldn't, wouldn't the employee have asked why and remembered the encounter?

2b) To aid in the escape of someone already inside?

How? The men on the outside apparently did not have a car waiting. Were they there to cover the escapee's face? Were they prepared to shoot their way out?

3) David Harkness. The guys told him they were Secret Service. That doesn't make any sense, and it shouldn't have made any sense to Harkness. How does having men at the back door of a warehouse protect the President in his motorcade? Why didn't Harkness challenge them? The Secret Service wore special lapel pins that day. Harkness makes no mention of that, nor did he ask to see any ID.

That whole business is just very weird.

Steve Thomas