Jump to content
The Education Forum

TSBD Rear Exit


Recommended Posts

Running on overtime here.  May loose post if not done when power goes out I've learned.  Why I 'm not going to try to go into detail at this point regarding comments.  The MFF version is larger on the site, you can actually read things like "overhead door" and "dock door" (in the triangle).  That's it for the moment before I loose this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 104
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

On 2/16/2021 at 12:14 PM, Steve Thomas said:

Larry,

Any account of the rear exit would have to include James Worrell.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/worrell.htm

Mr. SPECTER - Will you mark that "Y" where you stopped and rested and tell us how long you stopped there?
(Witness marking.)
Mr. WORRELL - How long?
Mr. SPECTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. WORRELL - I was there approximately 3 minutes before I saw this man come out the back door here.

Mr. SPECTER - What did he --
Mr. WORRELL - He wasn't holding nothing when he was running. He was just running.
Mr. SPECTER - What did you observe him do if, anything?
Mr. WORRELL - Well, when he ran out here, he ran along the side of the Depository Building and then when he got --

CE 362 is a photograph of the loading dock.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=982&tab=page

A long time ago, I read the account of a citizen who was stationed at a sawhorse, or a barricade of some sort and was assigned by a policeman to watch the back door to make sure no one came out, but for the life of me, I can't remember his name.

Steve Thomas

I've been re reading Worrell's full testimony.  He stood 5-6 feet from the front corner of the TSBD watching the parade.  He heard four shots.  After one he looked up and saw 6" of rifle barrel from six stories below.  Good eye for detail.  He also saw 2" of stock.  How many high powered rifles have only 6" of barrel extending beyond the stock?  

He turned and ran north along Houston beside the TSBD to the back of it then across Houston at an angle where he stopped to rest.  After about 3 minutes a man came "busting out the back door".  Had to be the door in Pat's picture.  Initially almost straight toward him, then right past him toward Pacific. Yet he never saw his face.  Just him running away towards Pacific.  His dark sports coat flapping against his light colored pants as he ran.

I think he almost had to have seen the man's face but was scared to admit it or was told he didn't.

Warren Commission, Volume II: James Richard Worrell, Jr. (aarclibrary.org)

Then there's this, which I've not read yet, for reference..

James Worrell: Fact or Fiction? - JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum (ipbhost.com)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ron, that is actually pretty interesting about the short gun barrel because something I was watching recently on YouTube had a witness to the shooting talking about what she saw. Can't remember exactly who it was but pretty sure it was a woman. Could it have been Carolyn Arnold maybe? Or possibly Patsy Paschall. Anyway, whomever it was, she had a remark about how the rifle didn't seem as long as a normal full sized rifle. The Worrell story about that rifle barrel he allegedly saw just made me think of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And of course from the standpoint of a concealed shooter there would be no reason at all to expose  yourself in that fashion......makes a lot of sense if you are just trying to draw attention to the location as part of a frame though.

As to the barrel length my old .22 has a ten inch barrel beyond the stock, perhaps a carbine of some sort...or a BB gun..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/17/2021 at 7:09 PM, Ron Bulman said:

A little better version of Pat's diagram.

image.thumb.png.dfdb960512bfc10cc7f9fc888725467f.pngimage.thumb.png.dfdb960512bfc10cc7f9fc888725467f.png

I'm frustrated with this diagram.  I can't seem to reproduce it in legible size and it's relevant to this discussion.  It's legible on the MFF site but when I linked it it shrank.  You can blow the one up on Pat's site to about this size. A google search for Texas School book Depository first floor diagram shows multiple small versions.  One for Warren Commission Exhibit No. 1061 gets you one about this size, still illegible.

Regarding relevancy, for example.  Worrell ran up Houston next to the TSBD to the back of it.  To the Houston Street Dock stairs?  To the end of The Houston Street Dock? Or the end of the dock (triangle).  From one of these points he ran across Houston at an angle, enough to see a man come busting out the back door and down the stairs (#3?) three minutes later while he rested.  With a sideways view of his face if not more frontal.  Which he denied ever seeing when questioned.

Edited by Ron Bulman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 After about 3 minutes a man came "busting out the back door".  Had to be the door in Pat's picture.  Initially almost straight toward him, then right past him toward Pacific. Yet he never saw his face.  Just him running away towards Pacific.  His dark sports coat flapping against his light colored pants as he ran.

I think he almost had to have seen the man's face but was scared to admit it or was told he didn't.

 

Ron,

Just a small point of correction...

The guy that Worrell saw coming out of the TSBD turned away from him and ran in a southerly direction back towards Main St. It was Worrell himself who went down Pacific. Worrell mostly saw only the guy's back.

See CE 2003 Report of K.L. Anderton at 24H pp 294-5

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140&search=%22James_Worrell%22#relPageId=312&tab=page

Took Worrell’s Affidavit.

Steve Thomas

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

Ron, that is actually pretty interesting about the short gun barrel because something I was watching recently on YouTube had a witness to the shooting talking about what she saw. Can't remember exactly who it was but pretty sure it was a woman. Could it have been Carolyn Arnold maybe? Or possibly Patsy Paschall. Anyway, whomever it was, she had a remark about how the rifle didn't seem as long as a normal full sized rifle. The Worrell story about that rifle barrel he allegedly saw just made me think of that.

The woman describing the short-barreled weapon was Carolyn Walther.

 

From patspeer.com, chapter 5a:

 

Mrs. Carolyn Walther (12-5-63 FBI report, 24H522) "Mrs. ERIC (CAROLYN) WALTHER...and another employee, Mrs. Pearl Stringer, ate lunch at 12:00 noon and left the lunch room at about 12:20 PM to go down on the street to see President KENNEDY ride by. They walked out of the front door of the building, crossed the street, and stopped at a point on the east side of Houston Street, about fifty or sixty feet south of the south curb of Elm Street. They stopped next to the curb to await the passing of the President. While standing there, she started looking around, and looked over toward the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) Building. She noticed a man wearing a brown suit and a very dark shirt leaning out a window of the third floor, somewhere about the middle window of the third floor. Shortly after this, a man in the crowd across the street to the west of where she was standing apparently had an epileptic seizure, and an ambulance came by and took the man away. Shortly after the ambulance left, she looked back towards the TSBD Building and saw a man standing on either the fourth of fifth floors, of the window on the south side of the building, which faces toward Elm Street. This man had the window open and was standing up leaning out the window with both his hands extended outside the window ledge. In his hands, this man was holding a rifle with the barrel pointed downward, and the man was looking south on Houston Street. The man was wearing a white shirt and had blond or light brown hair. She recalled at the time that she had not noticed the man there a few moments previously when she looked toward the building and thought that apparently there were guards everywhere. The rifle had a short barrel and seemed large around the stock or end of the rifle. Her impression was that the gun was a machine gun. She noticed nothing like a telescope sight on the rifle or a leather strap or sling on the rifle. She said she knows nothing about rifles or guns of any type, but thought that the rifle was different from any she had ever seen. This man was standing in about the middle of the window. In this same window, to the left of this man, she could see a portion of another man standing by the side of the man with a rifle. This other man was standing erect, and his head was above the opened portion of the window. As the window was very dirty, she could not see the head of this second man. She is positive this window was not as high as the sixth floor. This second man was apparently wearing a brown suit coat, and the only thing she could see was the right side of the man, from about the waist to the shoulders. Almost immediately after noticing this man with the rifle and the other man standing beside him, someone in the crowd said "Here they come." and she looked to her left, looking south on Houston Street, to see the Presidential Party. As soon as President KENNEDY's car passed where she was standing, she and Mrs. SPRINGER turned away and started walking north towards Elm Street. At about the time they reached the curb at Elm Street, she heard a loud report and thought it was fireworks. There was a pause after the first report, then a second and third report almost at the same time, and then a pause followed by at least one and possibly more reports. The noise seemed to come from up in the air, but she never looked up in that direction. When the second report sounded, she decided it was gunfire, so she and Mrs. SPRINGER started diagonally across the street toward the TSBD Building. About the time she got across the street, she heard someone yell that the president had been hit. She stopped a moment and listened to the police radio on a motorcycle, then returned to the building across the street where she works. She returned to her job at about 12:45 PM." 

(Late 1966 interview with Lawrence Schiller recounted in The Scavengers and Critics of the Warren Report, published 1967) "I was standing on Houston Street behind the Records Building about twelve feet from the intersection of Elm...I looked up at this building and there was a man and I thought he was in the fourth or fifth-floor window, and he had a gun, and he was holding it. He was pointing the gun down...I saw this man in the window and he had a gun in his hands, pointed downward. The man evidently was in a kneeling position because his forearms were resting on the window sill. There was another man that was standing beside him but I only saw a portion of his body...He was standing partly against...uh, behind the window. You know, only halfway in the window, and the window was dirty and I couldn't see his face up above where the window was pushed up." (When asked how long she watched this man) "Only a few seconds. It startled me, and...then I thought, Well, they probably have guards in all the buildings, so...I...didn't say anything. and just right away someone said, 'Here they come.' And I looked the other way and evidently the car, the first car, was just turning the block from Main Street, down on Houston, and it was a few seconds before the cars came back, before they passed me." (On what happened after they passed) "I heard one shot, and I thought at the time the first shot was a firecracker, and after the last car passed me I started walking back to work, and I had reached the curb, and two more shots, and then a second--two seconds later, one more. It wasn't as loud as the others. But the second and third shots were right together, and then I thought 'Oh, it's gunshots'" (When asked again about the men in the window) "The man that was holding the gun was partially leaning out, just slightly, and he had his forearms on the window and it was not a long rifle. This was a short gun. Not a pistol. I had never seen one like it. The other man was standing beside him, but I could only see a part of his face, and he was dressed in brown...A brown suitcoat was all I could see. Just about this portion. And it didn't look like boxes...(When asked what she meant by the last comment about the boxes) "Well, an agent from the FBI asked me if I thought what I had seen was boxes. And it was not boxes...I did not see any boxes in the building. I saw no boxes at all in the building." (When asked if the FBI seemed interested in what she was saying) "Well, they were interested in if I could identify Oswald and...uh, they were not interested in the other man in the window." (When asked if she could ID Oswald) "No, I could not. Definitely not.." (When asked how many shots she recalled being fired) "I definitely feel that I heard four shots." (When asked why saw was reluctant to talk about the shooting) "It was a terrible thing...if I could have identified the person I would have been glad to have, you know, done so, right away. But since I couldn't and I would not say it was Oswald...I'm not sure." (When asked if she was certain she saw two men in the window) "There's no doubt in my mind there were two men in the window." (Interview with CBS broadcast 6-25-67) (On the men she saw before the shooting) "I looked at this building and I saw this man with a gun, and there was another man standing to his right. And I could not see all of this man, and I couldn't see his face. And the other man was holding a short gun. It wasn't as long as a rifle. And he was holding it pointed down, and he was kneeling in the window, or sitting. His arms were on the window. And he was holding the gun in a downward position, and he was looking downward." (When asked which window this was) "The first statement that I made, I said the man was on the fourth or fifth floor, and I still feel the same way. He was about -- in a window that was just about even with the top of that tree. I saw the man had light hair, or brown, and was wearing a white shirt. That -- I explained to the F.B.I. agents that I wasn't sure about that. That was my impression on thinking about it later. That I thought that was the way the man was dressed." (When asked about the other man) "This other man was wearing a brown suit. And that was all I could see, was half of this man's body, from his shoulders to his hips. (On the shooting) “The President passed us, and he was smiling, and everybody was waving. Then the last of the cars went by, and I heard the shot. I thought it was a firecracker. Then I started back to work, and it was along the curb, and then two shots right together, and then another one. I'm sure there were four shots.” (3-27-68 interview with Barry Ernest recounted in The Girl on the Stairs, published 2011) "Mrs. Walther said she 'heard four shots. And right after the last shot I saw this police officer drop his motorcycle and immediately run into the Depository.' Marrion Baker. She described the sounds as having a definite pause between the first and second shots, then the second and third shots sounded like they were fired 'at the same time.' After that there was another slight pause, and then she heard a fourth shot." (Report on an 8-8-68 interview with Tom Bethel and Al Oser, investigators working on behalf New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison) "Mrs. Walther... repeated essentially the same story as she told the FBI and also told CBS in their special last July... She was standing on the west side of Houston Street and just before the motorcade arrived looked up at the Book Depository and saw two men in an upper floor window of the Book Depository, one of whom was holding a rifle which she described as being considerably shorter than the rifle which Oswald owned and fatter. The second man she couldn't make out any details about as he was standing back from the window a little bit but she emphasized that she's quite certain that this was a man and not, as the FBI had suggested to her, boxes... The man carrying the gun was blonde or light haired and she said that she thinks he was wearing a white shirt, and the other man was wearing a brown suit... Mrs. Walther, at the time of the first shot, was standing in front of the Records Building on Houston Street at the curb. She heard the first shot which she thought was a firecracker. Then she proceeded to the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets, going back to the Dal-Tex Building. As she was stepping off the curb onto Elm Street, she heard a second and third report. She proceeded to the middle of Elm Street, and while in the street, she heard a fourth shot. The fourth shot she stated appeared to be a more muffled and lower sounds opposed to the other three. She then turned and proceeded in the middle of Elm Street to the grassy knoll. She stated that she proceeded this way because everyone seemed to be running towards the grassy knoll area." (2-14-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw) (When asked where she was standing) "I was on Houston just off the corner of Elm by the Records Building." (When asked what she saw when she looked at the school book depository) "The first time I looked I saw a man I think in a maroon shirt in the center of the building stand up and later on I saw two men in another building (sic--she means window) and one was holding a gun and the other was standing beside him...The man wearing the gun, I think, was wearing a white shirt, I'm not sure." (When asked how the other man was dressed) "A brown suit coat." (When asked how many shots she heard) “All together I heard four” (When asked what the first one sounded like) “It was a loud popping sound and I thought it was just a firecracker…the last car was passing in front of me when I heard the first shot…The second one I was just stepping off the curb. “ (And the third?) “Almost to the center of the street.” (And fourth?) “In the center of the street.” (And how did they sound? The second? ) “It sounded just like the first one.” (The third?) “The same” (And fourth?) “A little lower…I stopped and said "That is gunshots." (When asked from where she thought these shots were fired) "Somewhere from my right, possibly to the front right." (When asked if that included the depository) "Yes, sir." 

(11-19-78 article in The Dallas Morning News) "Standing a few feet from Mrs. Henderson was Mrs. Carolyn Walther, a fellow worker at a dress factory across the street from the book depository. Mrs. Walther looked up at about the same time and also saw two men in an upper-floor window of the depository. One was holding a gun, she said. The gunman was wearing a dark brown suit and the other man had on a light-colored shirt or jacket, she said. Later the FBI 'tried to make me think that what I saw were boxes,' Mrs. Walther said. 'They were going to set out to prove me a xxxx and I had no intention of arguing with them and being harassed,' she said. 'I felt like I told them all I knew.'" (July-August 1988 interview recounted in American History Illustrated, November 1988) "I had gone out on the street about twenty after twelve...I glanced up at the Depository Building. There were two men in the corner window on the fourth or fifth floor. One man was wearing a white shirt and had blond or light brown hair. This man had the window open. His hands were extended outside the window. He held a rifle with the barrel pointed downward. I thought he was some kind of guard. In the same window, right near him, was a man in a brown coat suit. Then the President's car came by. I heard a gunshot. People ran. Like a fool, I just stood there. I saw people down. I walked toward them, with the thought maybe they were hurt and I could help them. People were running toward the grassy knoll...In all, I heard four shots."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Ron,

Just a small point of correction...

The guy that Worrell saw coming out of the TSBD turned away from him and ran in a southerly direction back towards Main St. It was Worrell himself who went down Pacific. Worrell mostly saw only the guy's back.

See CE 2003 Report of K.L. Anderton at 24H pp 294-5

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140&search=%22James_Worrell%22#relPageId=312&tab=page

Took Worrell’s Affidavit.

Steve Thomas

Thanks Steve, I need correction from time to time.  Too much info, get's hard to keep all the details separated.  After re reading and further reading today. . .

It was Sam Pate who saw the man running up Pacific.  "Only person I saw leaving that way down the side of that building, he never stopped to look, he just kept running up Pacific Avenue."

I still think Worrell would have had a brief frontal facial view, a pretty good more extended profile for sure.  I'll go back to the diagram to explain why further. 

As an aside I thought if the man ran south could this be the guy Richard Randolph Carr saw, that he also ID'd as being on the sixth floor?  Checked Jim Marr's in Crossfire he thinks Worrell supports Carr.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

And of course from the standpoint of a concealed shooter there would be no reason at all to expose  yourself in that fashion......makes a lot of sense if you are just trying to draw attention to the location as part of a frame though.

As to the barrel length my old .22 has a ten inch barrel beyond the stock, perhaps a carbine of some sort...or a BB gun..

My post was an incomplete summation from memory after reading Worrell's WC testimony.  He actually corrects himself to 4 inches of barrel seen on page 193.

"I saw about 6 inches of the gun, the rifle.  It had-well it had a regular long barrel but it had a long stock and you could only see maybe 4 inches of the barrel and I could see---  Specter, Were you able to observe any of the stock?  W, Oh yes.  S, How much of the stock were you able to observe?  W, Just very little, just about 2 inches.  S, How many inches of the barrel could you see protruding beyond the stock?  W, About 4 inches, I would say, not very much."

Really?  A defense lawyer for Oswald would have a field day imo.

I've got a 22 pistol in my safe with a over 6 1/2" barrel, just measured and looked at it.  Four inches from six floors below?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder now about Worrell, as well as Pate and Romack.  There are questions about all of their stories yet there are statements by one which support another. 

Harkness is intriguing.  After going to Industrial, turning around and coming back to the GK area, listening to Amos Eunis, taking him to another officer, then going to the back of he TSBD, I'm guessing this was more in the 5-10 minutes after the shots.  Yet he still encountered "Secret Service" agents at that point in time.  Worrell, Pate nor Romack  mention a cop on a trike that I remember reading of.  Please correct me if I missed this.    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Seems impossible to verify Worrell but it that were true it is hard not to see anything going on there as a diversion/frame.

Yes Sir.  That's what your rear exit thread brings to mind for me.  Diversion and framing.  From what I've read over the years I believe shots from the TSBD were a diversion, meant to draw attention up and back to the right.  As observed by SS agents in one of the Altgen's  pictures.  Before shots from the front occurred.

 

Altgens.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/20/2021 at 9:34 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Yes Sir.  That's what your rear exit thread brings to mind for me.  Diversion and framing.  From what I've read over the years I believe shots from the TSBD were a diversion, meant to draw attention up and back to the right.  As observed by SS agents in one of the Altgen's  pictures.  Before shots from the front occurred.

 

Altgens.jpg

Forgive my rambling speculation.  Given Oswald didn't shoot JFK or Connally as he wasn't on the 6th floor...  Two men were observed there by multiple people.  Personally I've come to believe over the years, neither shot at JFK.  One likely fired a couple of shots as a Distraction, from back and above, jmo.  

Irregardless of their purpose, how did they get out?

Combining and contrasting the "witness" statements there is a good chance at least one of them went out the back dock door.  I need to re read and make notes but feel confident in saying this.

I've read over the years about climbing on top of the front passenger elevator  by the entrance from it's top on the 5th floor as it stopped at the 4th floor.  Then riding it down to the second floor. Which I can't fathom.  Nor the fire escape.

But.  Remember, this is the elevator Vicki Adams first ran to, that wouldn't work, delaying her while waiting for it, before she and Sandra went down the back stairs? * 

This has been discussed before on various threads but not cohesively.  

My speculation is it was a well planned operation.  Probably rehearsed in advance.  Carcano already stashed where it would be found.  Distraction shooter's gun more well hidden for later pickup (recent thought by another), or the Mauser that disappeared?

Of the two men on the sixth floor, at least one ran for the freight elevator being held there as soon as the Distraction shots were fired.  He/they didn't wait around to see the results.

He/they were on the ground floor within 1-2 maybe three minutes at the most.  Under a partially rolled up dock door right next to the elevator someone once speculated, not me, though a possibility.

Exiting blending in among employee's at the front door re entering for strangers would be difficult without being noticed.

He/they could have exited the west door that Shelly and Lovelady supposedly came back in.

But I think at least one of them went out the back door. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Speaking of rifles. I'm always wondering about the province of this one. This was a 300 Magnum scoped rifle that Frank Fiorini/Sturgis gave to Manuel Artime with the engravement of "AMBIDDY/1, Leader of the Revolution, Frank Fiorini". Artime had it up on the wall where it was later stolen in Feb 1965. These docs make for interesting reading. AMCLATTER/1 is Bernard Barker, Sturgis's main CIA contact. Of course, these two would later be arrested as part of the Watergate break-in. 

 
Event was about Feb 3. - showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)
 
Suspect was Waldo Bado Perez - showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)
 
AMCLATTER follow up - showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Speaking of rifles. I'm always wondering about the province of this one. This was a 300 Magnum scoped rifle that Frank Fiorini/Sturgis gave to Manuel Artime with the engravement of "AMBIDDY/1, Leader of the Revolution, Frank Fiorini". Artime had it up on the wall where it was later stolen in Feb 1965. These docs make for interesting reading. AMCLATTER/1 is Bernard Barker, Sturgis's main CIA contact. Of course, these two would later be arrested as part of the Watergate break-in. 

 
Event was about Feb 3. - showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)
 
Suspect was Waldo Bado Perez - showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)
 
AMCLATTER follow up - showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)

The suspect, Perez was a former Brigade member?  What might the "thieves" have been photographing or looking for, passing up the tape recorders and camera.  G-2 sounds really familiar.  What does possibly G-2 sponsored indicate?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...