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TSBD Rear Exit


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On 2/17/2021 at 7:09 PM, Ron Bulman said:

A little better version of Pat's diagram.

image.thumb.png.dfdb960512bfc10cc7f9fc888725467f.pngimage.thumb.png.dfdb960512bfc10cc7f9fc888725467f.png

Just a point of reference in thought.  The triangle portion of the back dock was enclosed, with three overhead doors.  Two for unloading trucks, one opening onto the section in the diagram labeled "Back Dock".  If this particular door wasn't raised no on went out on the 'back dock' then directly down the steps onto the Houston street sidewalk.

They would have had to come out the door in Pat's picture, where #3 point's in the diagram.  Then over to Houston, or towards Pacific.  Maybe a minor but potentially important detail regarding witness perspectives.

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Ron's point on perspective is a good one and Pat's diagrams are extremely helpful.  Unfortunately the basic witness reports are  the same as it was when I first looked at this a couple of decades ago.

I do believe that someone with fresh eyes could take it another step by creating a timeline of the purported witnesses, how long each observed, their locations and what they could and could not see as far as the dock and the two stairs.  I would suggest referencing all of them again the exit of the two women (which should have been noted by anyone watching).   If they did not see them and were supposedly watching at the time of their exit that raises some real questions.  

That sort of timeline would represent a type of control for evaluating the witnesses - as well as determine who was really observing the rear for what period of time.  Assuming anyone really trying to get out as quickly as possible would have exited out the back before the women it would also suggest whether truly suspicious figures were observed.

Just a thought ...

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As I've freely admitted to before I'm technologically inept, do get frustrated with it from time to time.  Does anyone on here know how to enlarge this diagram and the pictures?  It's important to understanding the discussion.  

For example, the arrow from the picture  on the right is to the door Vicki Adams an Sandra Styles went out onto the enclosed dock.  In the picture to the lower left the arrow point's to the stairs they had to have come down to run around the tip of the triangle of the dock to head towards the railroad yards.  In high heels!  Lost anyone yet?

Worrell should have been almost directly across Houston at that point in time per their statements.  Details coming.

image.thumb.png.04f330278044a9c9dc1137a531032bad.png

  

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19 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

As I've freely admitted to before I'm technologically inept, do get frustrated with it from time to time.  Does anyone on here know how to enlarge this diagram and the pictures?  It's important to understanding the discussion.  

For example, the arrow from the picture  on the right is to the door Vicki Adams an Sandra Styles went out onto the enclosed dock.  In the picture to the lower left the arrow point's to the stairs they had to have come down to run around the tip of the triangle of the dock to head towards the railroad yards.  In high heels!  Lost anyone yet?

Worrell should have been almost directly across Houston at that point in time per their statements.  Details coming.

image.thumb.png.04f330278044a9c9dc1137a531032bad.png

  

Another reference point I think.  I don't remember seeing this picture before.  I guess this doesn't really matter but I think from the picture in the lower left above and the one below I believe the part in the diagram labeled Loading Dock was covered, extending all the way out over the section where the steps came up from the sidewalk.  In the picture above you see an open area with a pole supporting the roof to the left of the stairs.  In the one below on the far right you see the dock roof extending out over the sidewalk area supported by a pole, although you can't see the steps for the car in the way.  Just trying to put the back dock area in as much perspective as possible, as I've found no other pictures of the it.

As an aside, I don't know exactly when this picture was taken, but is that maybe D.V. Harkness trike that is parked near the front entrance?

[Exterior of the Texas School Book Depository]                                                                                                      [Sequence #]: 1 of 1  

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Romack's testimony is so confusing I printed it today to read through and highlight.

First, he was at Houston and Ross when he heard shots.  125 yards away from the back of the TSBD when he heard them in his own estimation.  A block and a half away from the back of the TSBD.  Pacific runs behind the Dal-Tex building which occupies a full block.   The TSBD occupies half a block.  Ross is a full block north of Pacific, also ending at Houston. Look it up on google maps.

Romack closed to 75 yards per his own testimony. He saw one officer run up Houston then back.  He moved the barricade to let Sam Pate of KBOX in at Houston and Pacific.  He said Pate parked about 35 yards from the back of the TSBD. Two FBI, "or something", took over he estimates after about 5 minutes, them standing right at the back door.

He contacted the FBI in March 1964 about what he'd saw.  After reading an article in the Dallas Times Herald  about a witness reporting a man running after the assassination towards where he was at, North up Houston towards Pacific to contradict this report.  " it just kind of upset me . . . some monkey hatched up such a story."

Sam Pate reports a man running on or towards Pacific.  Who' on first? 

  

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6 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Speaking of back door's.  Two minutes of bliss.

 

Thanks for this Ron. Heck of a way to start off my Friday morning, ending up down the CCR rabbit hole. I don't think there is another band that has as many instantly recognizable and timeless hits.

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I guess the only way to fully illustrate the quirkiness of Romack's questioning is to repeat some of it.

 

Romack.  I was on lunch period.  Just piddling around.

Belin.  You were standing around Houston?

R.  It would be just about where Houston would intersect... construction.

B.  Were you standing with anyone?

R.  Well, Lee and Mr. Rackley, we walked out there together originally to start with.  We were kind of piddling around, and I kind of walked off ahead of them.

B.  Along what street did you walk?

R.  Well it wouldn't be no street at the time.

B.  Well if there would be a street?

R.  I guess it would be just about, I don't know whether they are going to split Ross and Houston Street up.

B.  Would you be looking straight at Houston Street?

R.  More or less.  I would be looking at Houston Street, yes sir.

B.  All right, and what happened as you were walking?

R.  I heard these three rifle shots sound out.

So Romack wasn't even on Houston when the shots were fired.  He didn't see anything regarding the TSBD at the time of the shots.  When it came into view is not addressed.  Did he take off running towards the sound of the shots?

Belin.  The wind was blowing in your face as you (!) walked, ...

How far back were you from the School Book Depository Building when you heard the shot's?

R.  Oh, I probably was 125 yards.  100 to 125 yards, I would say.

B.  Would that be from the nearest corner of the building or from the front of Elm Street?

R.  From the nearest corner of the building.

B.  From the northeast corner of the building?

R. Right.

. . .

B.  Well, you heard the shots, and then what did you do?

R.  . . . looking down towards the which I am facing the Houston entrance, (???) and I looked down toward where all the people were standing along, the motorcade was passing by, and just immediately after I heard the shots, I saw a policeman running north towards me.  He was running to see if someone was running out the back of this building.

B.  What building?

R.  Texas School Book Depository Building.  And he didn't stay but just, oh he was there to check, and he runs back.  Well, sensing that something is wrong, I automatically take over watching the building for the man.

So from 100-125 yards from the back of the building, about 175 from Houston and Elm, after he heard the shots then came into view of that intersection he see's a cop run from there to the back of the building then back to the intersection.

I've never read anything about any other witnesses at Elm and Houston seeing a cop run to the back of the TSBD then back to the intersection.  Nor of a cop saying he did so.

Some of this just doesn't add up.  Yet there's more.    

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Out on lunch hour, just piddling around, clear view of all the crowds on the motorcade route but just stayed piddling around where he was - not much curiosity.  But enough so to somehow deduce and take over watching the back of the TSBD for an officer he only saw at a distance.

We don't know who that officer might have been and certainly no record of anybody running back there immediately after the shooting...

It all reminds me of when I first read his statements...just had a really hard time taking him seriously...

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Just to speculate, if say officer J.D. Tippit were the officer in question running back behind the TSBD then you wouldn't have a report of an officer running behind there because he didn't live to write said report. I know I have heard at least one account of Tippit being behind the TSBD. Can't remember who. May have been a caller into a radio program back in the 70's or 80's. They said something about a vehicle being back there and Tippit yelling at them to move the vehicle. Just food for thought.

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5 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

So from 100-125 yards from the back of the building, about 175 from Houston and Elm, after he heard the shots then came into view of that intersection he see's a cop run from there to the back of the building then back to the intersection.

I've never read anything about any other witnesses at Elm and Houston seeing a cop run to the back of the TSBD then back to the intersection.  Nor of a cop saying he did so.

 

Ron,

More than likely, this officer was Welcome Eugene Barmett.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/barnett.htm

 

Mr. LIEBELER - What did you do when you concluded that the shots were coming from that building? Mr. BARNETT - I ran to the back of the building.
Mr. LIEBELER - Ran down Houston Street?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the fire escape?
Mr. BARNETT - I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building.
 

Mr. BARNETT - Yes; but there was no sign they were going into the building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one watching the building. So since this was the only fire escape and there were officers down here watching the this back door, I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape. Then I decided maybe I had been wrong, so I saw the officers down here searching.

Depending on the timing, those "officers watching the back door" could have been sent there by Sawyer. I don't know if the "officers" Barnett saw were in uniform or not.

Steve Thomas

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7 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Ron,

More than likely, this officer was Welcome Eugene Barmett.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/barnett.htm

 

Mr. LIEBELER - What did you do when you concluded that the shots were coming from that building? Mr. BARNETT - I ran to the back of the building.
Mr. LIEBELER - Ran down Houston Street?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the fire escape?
Mr. BARNETT - I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building.
 

Mr. BARNETT - Yes; but there was no sign they were going into the building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one watching the building. So since this was the only fire escape and there were officers down here watching the this back door, I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape. Then I decided maybe I had been wrong, so I saw the officers down here searching.

Depending on the timing, those "officers watching the back door" could have been sent there by Sawyer. I don't know if the "officers" Barnett saw were in uniform or not.

Steve Thomas

Thanks again Steve.  Trying to compare statements and the Estimates of timing of the witnesses does get confusing and at times contradictory.

Officer Barnett says after the third shot, thinking the shots had come from the top of the TSBD, he ran to 20' past the back of it.  He saw officers searching the railroad cars (on the West side of the TSBD, that quickly), and since there were officers watching the back door, he turned around and went back to the front door.  In 2 1/2 - 3 minutes at the most.

Romack saw him do this, from 75-125-175 yards away.  But he did not see the officers, plain clothed, FBI, SS or whatever at the back door/steps in that time frame.

Nor did Romack or Barnett see Worrell run at the third shot to the back of the TSBD, cross over Houston, and stop to rest for 3 minutes before a man busted out that door and ran south on Houston.  I.E. about the time Barnett was getting back to the front door.  The guy would be running right past Barnett.

Yet Barnett nor Romack mention seeing this guy running, or seeing Worrell at all.  Even though Worrell says he went on north on Houston to Pacific and tuned east on it.  Right where Romack claimed to be standing.

Yet still, Richard Randolph Carr saw a man running south on Houston, from the back of the TSBD at virtually the same time as Worrell did.

I don't nee my old worn out high top cowboy boots to wade through this.  I need to put on my chest waders.

Then there's Sam Pate, who says he saw someone running to or up Pacific to revisit and D.V. Harkness. 

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41 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Thanks again Steve.  Trying to compare statements and the Estimates of timing of the witnesses does get confusing and at times contradictory.

Officer Barnett says after the third shot, thinking the shots had come from the top of the TSBD, he ran to 20' past the back of it.  He saw officers searching the railroad cars (on the West side of the TSBD, that quickly), and since there were officers watching the back door, he turned around and went back to the front door.  In 2 1/2 - 3 minutes at the most.

Romack saw him do this, from 75-125-175 yards away.  But he did not see the officers, plain clothed, FBI, SS or whatever at the back door/steps in that time frame.

 

Ron,

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/romack.htm

Mr. ROMACK. And I looked up and I felt kind of chilly looking down towards the which I am facing the Houston entrance, and I looked down toward where all the people were standing along, the motorcade was passing by, and just immediately after I heard the shots, I saw a policeman running north towards me. He was running to look to see if somebody was running out of the back of this building.
Mr. BELIN. What building?
Mr. ROMACK. Texas School Book Depository Building. And he didn't stay but just, oh, he was just there to check and he runs back.
Well, sensing that something is wrong, I automatically take over watching the building for the man.
Mr. BELIN. What part of the building were you watching?
Mr. ROMACK. The back
Mr. BELIN. Could you see that back dock in the back part?
Mr. ROMACK. Well, I mean, they got it sealed off.
I could see as much as anyone could see.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any employees walk up the back way?
Mr. ROMACK. There was two other gentlemen which I never said anything.
about, that taken over. They were FBI or something standing right here at the very entrance, and just stood there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever contact the FBI?
Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When did you do that?
Mr. ROMACK. It was on a Saturday night after I got in from work.
Mr. BELIN. What month was it?
Mr. ROMACK. It was this past month.
Mr. BELIN. You mean March?
Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. ROMACK It just kind of upset me to know there is some monkey just hatched up such a story.

Romack testified to the Warren Commision in April, 1964.

He didn't tell the FBI what he knew until March, 1964 and he only did that when he read the "monkey's" story in the newspaper.

What color was James Worrell? He was black, wasn't he?

Steve Thomas

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DPD Sargent D V Harkness testimony is quite interesting.  Supervisor of traffic officers at Elm and Houston (and Main and Houston?) he'd parked his trike at main and Houston.

Belin.  Where were you when you heard the shots?

Harkness.  I had started west on Main to observe the President as he went west on Elm. . . . When I heard the first shot and saw the President's car almost come to a stop... I went back to the intersection to get my motorcycle.

B.  Then what did you do?

H.  I went west on Main to observe the area between the railroad tracks and Industrial.

B.  Why did you go down there?

H.  By the way that the people, when I went into this area, everybody was hitting the ground, and someone led us to indicate that the shots were coming into the cars

B.  You mean from some point in front of the cars?

H.  Yes.

He didn't see anything and returned to the TSBD, to the fence by Elm and the railroad tracks.

B.  What did you find there?

H.  I found this little colored boy who told me he saw the shots come from that building.  . . . AFTER I took his name and address And Put This Information On The RADIO, I took him on the back of my three-wheel motorcycle and put him in Inspector Sawyer's car.

Now the timeline gets interesting.

B.  . . . do you remember what call you used, were using that day?

H.  I believe 260.

B.  Well, I notice that there is a call with a a notation of 12:36 p.m., 260  to 531.  531 is your office in the main station?

H.  Yes sir.

B.  In the process of sealing off the building what did you do?

H.  I asked for a squad.

B.  How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?

H.  it was sealed off Then because I was back there and two other men.  ???

B.  Your talking about the back part of the building?

H.  Yes sir.

After reconfirming he had put Amos Eunis in Sawyer's car . . . 

B.  Then you went around to the back of the building?  

H.  Yes Sir.

B.  Was anyone around the back when you got there?

H.  There were some Secret Service Agents There.  I didn't get them identified.  They told me they were Secret Service.

B.  Then did you say(sp) around the back of the building?

H.  Yes; I stayed in the back until the squad got there.

 

What the Hell happened to the (non existent SSA's per the SSA) Secret Service agents he never bothered to identify, after the president had just been Assassinated?  Why didn't Belin ask about this?

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6 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

What the Hell happened to the (non existent SSA's per the SSA) Secret Service agents he never bothered to identify, after the president had just been Assassinated?  Why didn't Belin ask about this?

Ron,

David Harkness wasn't the only one to report mystery or unknown Secret Service Agents in or around the TSBD at the time of the assassination.

On November 23, 1963 he (Roger Craig) filed a Supplementary Investigation report with Dallas Sheriff, Bill Decker. In his report, he said that, “I tried to get across the street to stop the car and talk with subjects, but the traffic was so heavy, I could not make it. I reported this incident at once to a secret service officer whose name I do not know, then I left this area and went at once to the building and assisted in the search of the building.”20.

Chief Curry met them (Richard Sims and Elmer Boyd) in front of the hospital and ordered Captain Fritz to go to the scene of the shooting. Sims and Boyd returned to downtown Dallas along with Captain Fritz and Sheriff Bill Decker. They arrived at the Texas School Book Depository at approximately 12:58PM and participated in the search of the TSBD. They report that the rifle was found at about 1:25PM and identify persons who were present when it was photographed. They knew enough of the federal agencies involved to make the distinction between the FBI, the Secret Service and officers of the ATF. They wrote, “Detective Studebaker and Lieutenant Day took pictures of the rifle. Mr. Pinkston of the F.B.I. and a Secret Service Agent were there at the time the pictures were being made. We don’t know the Secret Service agent’s name. Mr. Ellsworth and another officer from Alcohol Tax Department were also there.”23.

20. Officer Roger Craig. Supplementary Investigation Report November 23, 1963 as cited in the History Matters Archive, http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol19_0271b.htm

23. "Report on Officer's Duty in Regard to the President's Murder, R. M. Sims. No. 629, and E. L. Boyd, No, 840. Dallas Police archives Box 3 Folder # 4, as cited in the City of Dallas Archives – JFK Collection, http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm

Steve Thomas

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