John Armstrong on Black Op Radio: the reported later statements of Victoria Adams (The Girl on the Stairs) are probably a hoax.

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

the point is that Vicky Adams did not say she has seen Lovelady and Shelley when she and Sandra Styles went down the stairs and reached the first floor. These girls did not see Marrion Baker and Roy Truly either.

But, she did.  Adams said she saw Shelley and Lovelady in two statements.  Feb., 14, 1964 and in her WC statement of April 7, 1964.  

She and Styles should have seen Baker and Truly if they made the run in 60 seconds.  Should have met them on the steps.

Edited March 24, 2021 by John Butler

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Adams and Styles left the building within 60 seconds or even slightly earlier (my calculations). The point is that Mrs. Garner, Adams's and Styles's supervisor, confirmed that they left before Truly and Baker climbed up the stairs and reached the fourth floor. Since the two parties (Adams & Styles and Baker & Truly) did not see each other and Adams & Styles left before Garner saw Truly & Baker, the only possibility is that the two girls left the building early on and therefore missed Truly and Baker. There is no chance that Lovelady and Shelley could be in the back of the first floor within one minute without being seen by Truly and Baker who came to the back of the first floor about 70 seconds after the last shot and just missed Adams and Styles.Moreover, both Lovelady and Shelley confirmed that they had seen Truly and Baker entering the building while they (Lovelady and Shelley) were about 15-20 meters away from the front entrance on the small concrete island there.

Adams and Styles crossed 100 feet of the TSBD, less their office space, and ran down 4 flights of steps in 60 seconds, not 90 seconds or 2 minutes.  Speed demons! 

"The point is that Mrs. Garner, Adams's and Styles's supervisor, confirmed that they left before Truly and Baker climbed up the stairs and reached the fourth floor."  How is this possible?  That would make 70 seconds plus some few seconds trying to use the elevator, plus another 90 seconds to climb the stairs to the fourth floor (here we give Baker and Truly the same speed as Oswald in stair traversing) to get to the 4th floor.   Styles and Adams were simply not that fast.  Your reasoning is a convenient reasoning for a truly inexplicable situation.  It is an answer, but not a realistic one.

Vickie Adams said twice when she had no reason to lie or forget that she saw Shelley and Lovelady at the elevators.  She did not mention Truly anywhere at the elevators or on the steps.  This is the inexplicable part.  You can dismiss these two statements to the authorities if you wish.

OBTW, This is not the important part of her testimony.  It is the means to discredit her as a witness who said things that shouldn't have been said.  To wit, shooting occurred in front of the TSBD and out of sight under the trees.

There were several people on the 3rd and 4th floor of the TSBD looking out their respective windows and guess what?  They all (except Elsie Dorman who said shots came from the Court Records Building) said much the same as Vickie Adams (here Sandra Styles at first said she didn't see anything, but later said much the same thing as Vickie).

These are :

Vickie Adams

Sandra Styles (at a later date) 

Elsie Dorman (did not say what the rest said)

Dorothy Gardner

Yola Hopson

Ruth Nelson

Steven Wilson (3rd floor)

Alice Foster (on either the fourth or fifth floor as later claimed by Mary Hollies) heard shooting as the p. limo turned down Elm Street).

Mary Hollies (either on the 4th or 5th floor) made two ambiguous statements concerning the shooting.  First, shooting occurred when the p. limo turned down toward the Triple Underpass and the Second, she heard shooting as the p. limo passed the TSBD).  I take this to mean in front of the TSBD, but others have their opinions.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by John Butler

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Adams and Styles left the building within 60 seconds or even slightly earlier (my calculations). The point is that Mrs. Garner, Adams's and Styles's supervisor, confirmed that they left before Truly and Baker climbed up the stairs and reached the fourth floor. Since the two parties (Adams & Styles and Baker & Truly) did not see each other and Adams & Styles left before Garner saw Truly & Baker, the only possibility is that the two girls left the building early on and therefore missed Truly and Baker. There is no chance that Lovelady and Shelley could be in the back of the first floor within one minute without being seen by Truly and Baker who came to the back of the first floor about 70 seconds after the last shot and just missed Adams and Styles.Moreover, both Lovelady and Shelley confirmed that they had seen Truly and Baker entering the building while they (Lovelady and Shelley) were about 15-20 meters away from the front entrance on the small concrete island there.

Adams and Styles crossed 100 feet of the TSBD, less their office space, and ran down 4 flights of steps in 60 seconds, not 90 seconds or 2 minutes.  Speed demons! 

"The point is that Mrs. Garner, Adams's and Styles's supervisor, confirmed that they left before Truly and Baker climbed up the stairs and reached the fourth floor."  How is this possible?  That would make 70 seconds plus some few seconds trying to use the elevator, plus another 90 seconds to climb the stairs (here we give Baker and Truly the same speed as Oswald in stair traversing) to get to the 4th floor.   Styles and Adams were simply not that fast.  Your reasoning is a convenient reasoning for a truly in explicable situation.  It is an answer, but not a realistic one.

Vickie Adams said twice when she had no reason to lie or forget that she saw Shelley and Lovelady at the elevators.  She did not mention Truly anywhere at the elevators or on the steps.  This is the inexplicable part.  You can dismiss these two statements to the authorities if you wish.

OBTW, This is not the important part of her testimony.  It is the means to discredit her as a witness who said things that shouldn't have been said.  To wit, shooting occurred in front of the TSBD and out of sight under the trees.

There were several people on the 3rd and 4th floor of the TSBD looking out their respective windows and guess what?  They all (except Elsie Dorman who said shots came from the Court Records Building) said the same as Vickie Adams (here Sandra Styles at first said she didn't see anything, but later said much the same thing as Vickie).

These are :

Vickie Adams

Sandra Styles (at a later date) 

Elsie Dorman (did not say what the rest said)

Dorothy Gardner

Yola Hopson

Ruth Nelson

Steven Wilson (3rd floor)

Alice Foster (on either the fourth or fifth floor as later claimed by Mary Hollies) heard shooting as th p. limo turned down Elm Street).

Mary Hollies (either on the 4th or 5th floor) made two ambiguous statements concerning the shooting.  First, shooting occurred when the p. limo turned down toward the Triple Underpass and the Second, she heard shooting as the p. limo passed the TSBD).  I take this to mean in front of the TSBD, but others have their opinions.

 

 

[John Butler]

And, now where were Shelley and Lovelady?   The following can provide some info on that:

These are Darnell/Weigman.  In the first one we can see Lovelady.  But, I don't see Shelley.  The second one at the top we seen a policeman who could very well be Baker.

In the next two down we can see Prayerman taking photos, as seen in the Martin film just as he did on Elm Street and next to him is Lovelady again, but I still do not see Shelley.  The timing of these frames can give you an idea when at least Lovelady showed up at the elevators in the TSBD.

In the motorcade as it proceeding down Houston Street the car containing the Mayor of Dallas and his wife were stopped at the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets by either Joe Marshall Smith or Welcome Eugene Barnett or both.  They were detained for about 40 seconds.  

Another problem is that people believe there is 15 seconds between the Dave Wiegman and Weigman-Darnell scenes of the TSBD steps.  There is something close to 37 second or more difference shown in the frame below which has the Camera Cars making the turn onto Elm Street from Houston Street at 38 seconds.

According to the last photo in the montage Shelley and Lovelady had left the steps of the TSBD and had at a minimum of 20 seconds to cross 100 feet of TSBD floor to the elevators.  Plenty of time to be there and seen by Adams and Styles whether they took 60 seconds or 90 seconds to get there. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by John Butler

[Ron Bulman]

20 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Barry Ernest replies:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/barry-ernest-replies-to-john-armstrong-re-victoria-adams

Kudos to Barry Ernst!  The stenographers recording of Vicki Adams statement to the Warren Commission was destroyed By The Commission itself!  Thus implying while they were still in existence in 1964.  A criminal act?  It was Evidence.   Any interpretation of it by them or anyone else is supposition.  They destroyed their own evidence of it.  Smells not like teen spirit, but Allen Dulles.

I found Girl on the Stairs compelling and sincere when I first read it.  Sincere in both Ernst's work, his inspiration and encouragement by Penn Jones and Harold Weisberg, his long term commitment to it, and, Vicki Adams reaction and statements when confronted with it.   

I've long questioned the development of two Oswald's since childhood though I don't question him being impersonated in Dallas, Mexico or New Orleans, or, his name being used by others prior to that.

Tracking down Sandra Styles was the icing on the cake.  Shelly and Lovelady were not there when they came off the stairs.

Please pass on my thanks to Mr. Ernst for his continued work. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Ron Bulman

[Andrej Stancak]

John:

I do not want to drag this thread away from Armstrong's questioning Barry Ernest's discovery. I have explained the locations of various Depository employees in Altgens6, Wiegman and Darnell in my previous posts. 

Therefore, I would only refrain to answering your question as to where is Shelley in Wiegman and Darnell in your insets. Please find here your edited picture with arrows pointing to Shelley. I have also pointed to Williams because Williams stood in front and below Shelley, therefore, his figure obstructs part of Shelley's figure. A small detail: Williams swapped arms to shield his eyes.

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Andrej Stancak

[John Butler]

6 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

I do not want to drag this thread away from Armstrong's questioning Barry Ernest's discovery.

Thanks for replying Andrej,

Sorry, but I have to disagree.  By discussing this and other things I have mentioned, they relate to the heart of the Armstrong/Ernest argument.  Did Vickie Adams lie or tell the truth?  And, when was that?  I believe Vickie Adams spoke truthfully in 1964 in two statements.  At that time she no had reason to not speak truthfully.  I don't know why she refuted in later years what she said 1964.  Sandra Styles saying she didn't see them either sort of puts Vickie Adams on the spot in 1964, but clinches Ernest's argument.  Maybe?  I don't give much credit to Sandra Styles as a witness. 

Decades after an event one's memory could change and often does concerning things that happened decades before.  I won't make excuses for Adams or Styles.  What I will do is stick to what Vickie Adams said in 1964.  Vickie Adams did not lie.  We have the Top Secret classification for a part of her testimony.  This indicates the seriousness of what she said.  What she said about the shooting contradicts the official story of the WC.  I don't see how Shelley and Lovelady's whereabouts is some kind of great secret that needs to be covered up.   

I don't think the location of Shelley/Lovelady is significant.  What is significant about the testimony is what she said about shooting and the p. limo's location.  The same thing occurred with Jean Hill in Hill Exhibit No. 5, Arlen Specter, and the Top Secret classification of locating where the p. limo was when Mary took her picture.

I saw the figures you have pointed to, but they are too vague for me to say that they are Bill Shelley.

That figure appears to have glasses.  I am not certain Bill Shelley wore glasses.  Shelley was a short and slender figure.  This character doesn't seem to be.  Still to vague to make any kind of identification.

IMO, the Armstrong/Ernest argument centers on whether Vickie Adams was truthful.  I don't think Vickie Adams lied then or decades later.  The problem may be her memory of events much later.

"

Saturday, 27 February 2021 18:00

Barry Ernest Replies to John Armstrong, RE: Victoria Adams

Written by Barry Ernest

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Barry Ernest replies to John Armstrong’s recent article entitled “Oswald DID NOT Run Down the Stairs” by clarifying the record and revealing various assumptions Armstrong makes in his evaluation of the evidence.

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In a recent website article titled “Oswald DID NOT Run Down the Stairs” (his emphasis), researcher/author John Armstrong dissects the story of Victoria Adams. He wholeheartedly upholds her account that she descended the back stairs of the Texas School Book Depository immediately after the assassination. But he takes strong exception to statements she made to me that she did not (my emphasis) see employees William Shelley and Billy Lovelady when she arrived on the first floor."

  

Edited March 25, 2021 by John Butler

[Andrej Stancak]

41 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I saw the figures you have pointed to, but they are too vague for me to say that they are Bill Shelley.

John: 

you brought these pictures here and asked me to indicate where was Shelley. I knew you would not be satisfied but you cannot say I ignored your request.

If you want some more thoughts for brain regarding identification of Shelley in various pictures, please start with Altgens6. Maybe you can agree that Shelley was the man in black (dark) suit wearing a tie who stood on the top landing just behind Lovelady. If you can agree that that man was Shelley, please try to contemplate this: only a couple of seconds elapsed between Altgens6 and Wiegman's stills. Therefore, the man who we may agree is Shelley in Altgens6 and the man who is at the same location in Wiegman as Altgens6' Shelley will be Shelley. Simply, Shelley could not evaporate within those couple of seconds and be replaced by someone of the same body height, standing at the same spot and having white shirt surrounded by a dark area (coat).

I would be thankful if my reply could be the last post in this thread on Shelley's presence in the assassination pictures.

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

you brought these pictures here and asked me to indicate where was Shelley. I knew you would not be satisfied but you cannot say I ignored your request.

Thanks Andrej,

I thank you for pointing that out.  Altgens 6 has a man in a suit and tie.  However, he is a portly man sort of like Alfred Hitchcok.  Bill Shelley was short and slender.  In my opinion Altgens 6 is not a match.

Shelley:

I don't know Shelley's height, he appears the shortest in this crowd, slender and not rotund.  He could be about 5'7 or maybe and inch or so less.  Black suits were common in those days.   I didn't mean to insult or assault.  I just have different ideas and think my arguments are stronger.  Thanks again. 

 

[Ron Bulman]

22 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Kudos to Barry Ernst!  The stenographers recording of Vicki Adams statement to the Warren Commission was destroyed By The Commission itself!  Thus implying while they were still in existence in 1964.  A criminal act?  It was Evidence.   Any interpretation of it by them or anyone else is supposition.  They destroyed their own evidence of it.  Smells not like teen spirit, but Allen Dulles.

I found Girl on the Stairs compelling and sincere when I first read it.  Sincere in both Ernst's work, his inspiration and encouragement by Penn Jones and Harold Weisberg, his long term commitment to it, and, Vicki Adams reaction and statements when confronted with it.   

I've long questioned the development of two Oswald's since childhood though I don't question him being impersonated in Dallas, Mexico or New Orleans, or, his name being used by others prior to that.

Tracking down Sandra Styles was the icing on the cake.  Shelly and Lovelady were not there when they came off the stairs.

Please pass on my thanks to Mr. Ernst for his continued work. 

Still worth the price.

The Girl on the Stairs: The Search for a Missing Witness to the JFK Assassination: Ernest, Barry, Lifton, David: 9781455624317: Amazon.com: Books

[Andrej Stancak]

It should be also pointed out that Len Osanic has also invited Barry Ernest who was able to respond to John Armstrong's hoax allegation. The podcast was posted on Blackop Radio on March 4: https://blackopradio.com/pod/black1032.mp3

It is very instructive to listen to both podcasts, Armstrong's and Ernest's. Well done to Blackop Radio for offering an opportunity for a rebuttal to Barry Ernest.

[Andrej Stancak]

20 hours ago, John Butler said:

I thank you for pointing that out.  Altgens 6 has a man in a suit and tie.  However, he is a portly man sort of like Alfred Hitchcok.  Bill Shelley was short and slender.  In my opinion Altgens 6 is not a match.

 

John:

you cannot know how "portly" the man wearing a black suit and a tie was without seeing his full figure. This man in Altgens6 (Shelley) was looking in direction of the Records Building and slightly upwards. Thus, his trunk was bent slightly backwards and his chest was a bit more open compared to if he stood straight or look down. 

The reason why this man in Altgens6 is Shelley refers to both the visual data (there was only one man in the doorway in black suit and a tie and Shelley happened to be dressed exactly this way on that day) and the existing witness testimonies. Shelley was in the vicinity of Sarah Stanton, Buell Wesley Frazier, Billy Lovelady - please see brief summaries of witness accounts in a screenshot from my video on Youtube. 

Shelley himself confirmed he had stood on the top landing just in front of the glass door:

Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.

Thus, one does not need to see all facial features or a complete figure of a person to be able to decide with reasonable confidence if that man in the centre of the doorway was Bill Shelley or not.

The Darnell film has a big advantage that it shows both Buell Wesley Frazier and this man (Shelley) standing on the same plane. It is therefore possible to check if Shelley's body height of 5'6'' would be plausible because Frazier was 6' or 6 1/2' and the top of head of a man 5'6'' standing next to Frazier would reach to a feature of Frazier's face at the specific level of 5'6''. To do this analysis, one needs to bear in mind that there is another person standing behind Shelley (Sarah Stanton with her thick light-coloured, blonde hair). I did this analysis and am confident that the man in Darnell whom I flagged up as Shelley would match Shelley's body height. 

Some people, and I am not saying you are one of them, do not want that anything pertaining to the people in the doorway is actually determined. So, let us not dispute what can be established positively and with a reasonable confidence because this decreases the entropy, clears the case a bit more, and also helps to identify those individuals who still have not been identified. This is a big thing.

This is the sole reason for quoting you and responding again even if I do not wish to extend the photographic discussions in this thread. I have no intention to change your views, however, I want that whoever reads this thread understands the reasons for my claims and conclusions.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Andrej Stancak

[John Butler]

On 2/20/2021 at 1:56 AM, Pat Speer said:

 

 

Stupid editor!!!

[John Butler]

Andrej said,

“This is the sole reason for quoting you and responding again even if I do not wish to extend the photographic discussions in this thread. I have no intention to change your views, however, I want that whoever reads this thread understands the reasons for my claims and conclusions.”

Exactly.  You’ve stated your views well.  I happen to disagree.  The photographic evidence bears directly on the central issues of this thread.  These are:  Was Vickie Adams untruthful when she saw Shelley and Lovelady at the elevators?  And, was Shelley and Lovelady at the elevators and how did they get there?

Altgens 6 has a fairly portly gentleman who you said was Bill Shelley.  Bill Shelley is a short and slender man.  This figure in Altgens six is fairly fat and is taller than the Oswald/Lovelady figure.  When I made the decision on the portly man with a suit in Altgens 6 I took all of the thing you said into consideration.  Your use of a model is still a model and open to interpretation. 

I concede that Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley were on the steps.  So, whose who in Altgens 6 is not that relevant.  Altgens 6 is a fraud.  In my opinion it cannot be used to time anything.  And, timing Altgens 6 is important.  Vickie Adams and most of the witnesses on the 4^th floor said the shooting took place in front of the TSBD at not as portrayed in Altgens 6 and Zapruder.  This is also the statements of the majority of 105+ witnesses who said much the same thing.

Let’s back up a moment and talk about how fast Vickie and Sandra came down the steps to get to the elevators.  They are said to be speedy and arrived at the back door by the elevator in about 60 seconds.  Let’s compare that to Oswald’s alleged descent from the 6^th floor to the second floor.  That’s 4 floors in 90 seconds.

How many floors the two ladies descend.  4 floors in 60 seconds?  Let’s give the ladies the same speed as Oswald, 90 seconds.

Shelley and Lovelady are captured by Darnell about 37 or 38 seconds after the shooting.  Weigman has a frame at that time showing the camera car that Darnell was in turning the corner and heading down Elm at that time.  The problem is that the Darnell and Weigman frames are too blurry to identify the main characters on the steps.  Can you identify with certainty who Prayerman was?  Or, anyone?

After Darnell we don’t know where Shelley and Lovelady went.  There is one frame that show a pair resembling Shelley and Lovelady walking towards the west side of the TSBD.  The pair being Shelley and Lovelady is debatable.

In this sense Pat Speer may very well be right:

“I guess I agree with Armstrong then. When I went back and looked at this a few years back, it became quite clear that Adams and Styles raced downstairs and came across Shelley and Lovelady entering from the west side. 

Her saying her testimony was changed was, in my opinion, a defense mechanism begun as a reaction to the actions of Ball and Belin, who told her Shelley and Lovelady failed to return for 5 minutes or so after the shooting. This was a lie. 

I firmly believe, moreover, that Ball and Belin knew this was a lie. They never asked Shelley and Lovelady if they saw Truly and Baker when they (S and L) came back in through the west side. And this even though Baker swore he saw two white men at the back of the building when he was standing by the elevators. 

When you read through all the statements it's clear these two were S and L.” 

 

If it took 90 seconds for Vickie and Sandra (a reasonable assumption, some say 2 minutes- 10:38) to come down the steps then it would have given Shelley and Lovelady 50 seconds or more to get to the elevators.  I don’t know if Pat Speer’s route can be done in 50 seconds to two minutes.  But, its less than 200 feet to travel in that time.

What I think is that Shelley after thinking about it for some time followed his boss into the TSBD to see what was going on and went back to the elevators.  Lovelady may have been with him or followed a few seconds later.  This is the quickest and easiest route to the elevators to have Truly to order them to watch the elevators.

Nearly everything one talks about in the Kennedy Assassination is debatable.  There is not an agreement by all on much of what is reported to have happened that day.

I am one who believes that what truly happened that day is still hid from the public.  This is based on what I have discovered in the photo record and from witness statements. 

The Zapruder film was a stroke of pure genius.  Hidden for years until memory of that day had fade in the minds of people.  Then it burst unto the scene at a relevant point in history.  It was so shocking and terrible to see the actual blowing up of the president’s head.  Oh, that’s the way it was, that’s where it was, I must have been wrong remembering it the way I did.  This was a big help even though authorities had corrupted the witness testimony record.

It took years for most people to start questioning the events portrayed in the Zapruder film.  The Zapruder film is a fraud starting at frame one and continuing through out the film.    

[Jonathan Cohen]

56 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Altgens 6 is a fraud. 

A fraud that was transmitted over the Associated Press wire within 30 minutes of the assassination?