Jump to content
The Education Forum

Tipping Point now on Amazon


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 46
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Emilio (AMIRE-1) was one of the principles of the "Stay Behind Network" that literally stayed in Cuba after the American Embassy was abandoned and continued to stay after the Bay of Pigs. Other members were Warren Frank (AMPARCH-1), Tony Sforza (AMRYE-1) and James O'Mailia (AMCRACKLE-1). Emilio was recruited by Henry Hecksher while in Havana. Hecksher was using the pseudonym of Nelson Raynock

John Newman covers the Stay Behind Network in Into the Storm. 

From John Newman's article - Antonio Veciana, Mystery Man in JFK Assassination, Part 1 - WhoWhatWhy

Joe Melton’s Training Program for Veciana.

While the CIA was laying the groundwork for Emilio Rodriguez to take over Dave Phillips’ propaganda operations in Cuba, the final chapter in Veciana’s 1959 notional Phillips scenario was unfolding. According to Trained to Kill, on approximately 30 October, the notional Phillips directed Veciana to return to the building where he had been polygraphed by Joe Melton and to come up to an office in a suite occupied by the “Cuban Mining Company.” Veciana got the name wrong but it was a mining company — the Moa Bay Mining Company.31 Veciana also noticed that a Berlitz Language School was on the first floor. The Berlitz school was run by Drexel Gibson. Veciana went up to the sixth floor and rang the bell. The notional Phillips and Melton ushered him into a small vestibule inside and closed the door.32

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some extracts from Tipping Point:

Ultimately when both Sforza and Rodriguez were themselves taken out of Cuba in the summer of 1961, they were moved into foreign intelligence positions at JMWAVE. Rodriguez's personnel file suggests that there was a special need to protect his identity because in addition to JMWAVE office access, he also performed covert activities outside the office. [ 269 ] Both men received CIA intelligence medals for their work inside Cuba, indicating an outstanding level of performance – especially for Rodriguez as he was only a contract employee during that service. [ 270 ]

Given Emilio's family connections to New Orleans, including to individuals actually having been in personal contact with Lee Oswald, it is virtually certain that he was given information about Oswald's sudden appearance in New Orleans and Oswald's very public support of the Castro regime. If true, that would mean that by the end of summer, 1963 Oswald was not only known to JMWAVE though DRE reporting and to DRE case officers, but very likely to foreign intelligence and Cuban Intelligence Service (AMOT) personnel at JMWAVE.

...Rodriquez was himself active in counter intelligence field work. He was authorized to establish a residential cover in New York City and traveled there frequently during 1962 and 1963, in support of efforts against the Cuban staff at the United Nations. [ 272 ] He was given a cover as a consultant in electronics and electrical systems and due to the nature of his work was granted a Top Secret security clearance. While speculative, it is also possible that he traveled to New Orleans to build a dossier on Oswald and evaluate him from a counter intelligence perspective.

Which leads to the speculation that the knowledge of Oswald, as a highly visible Fair Play for Cuba advocate and self-proclaimed head of an FPCC chapter, might well have played directly into the intelligence activities of JMWAVE in the fall of 1963. Specifically, both Oswald (or simply his "identity") held potential value for tasks being undertaken by Tony Sforza (AMRYE-1) who led the Cuban intelligence effort at JMWAVE, Emilio Rodriquez (AMIRE-1) the foreign intelligence officer assigned to counter intelligence work targeting Cuban diplomats, and David Phillips (newly assigned to SAS and tasked with propaganda efforts against the FPCC across Latin America). The tasks for all three individuals would have included Cuban targets in Mexico City.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks...looks like it will be useful for me give TP a second reading...I hadn’t entirely grasped that connection first time round and the level of detail required now to keep up is such that I suspect that, just like SWHT, it will be useful to periodically re-refer to it as my own understanding gradually moves along...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It does tend to get lost I'm afraid, but the implications of linking detailed knowledge about Oswald to a SAS officer in Miami who was involved with political action and CIA activities targeting Cuban UN personnel in New York as well as Cuban embassy staff in Mexico City seems really significant - especially when Cuban personnel in question at each location were also connected and one of them was Sylvia Duran. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Every member of the Cuban and Russian diplomatic staff, and those that supported them, were targets of recruitment. If I remember right, the CIA had already successfully recruited 14 assets. The preferred option was to recruit in place and therefore have a continuous source of old and new information. Mexico City COS Winston Scott was putting pressure on staff to recruit Eusibio Azcue before he was re-assigned back to Cuba on October 4, 1963 and thus out of reach. So, who was tasked with recruiting Azcue? Jose CASAS, AMOT-106. CASAS had previously worked closely with Tony Sforza and Emilio Rodriguez in Cuba. Sforza recruited his old friend CASAS who now lived in the US to make another late pitch to Azcue.

For a good background on this, read Bill Simpich's State Secret, Chapter 3. State Secret Chapter3 (maryferrell.org)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again I can see where you are coming from around Mexico City and the ‘coincidence’ of Oswald coming into contact with Azcue and Duran.

My worry about that as the underlying reason for the Mexico City incident is partially that LHO’s behaviour (or whoever it was) hardly seems designed to win friends and influence people, but rather seems provocative, slightly ‘nutty’ and more likely to make Azcue etc avoid further contact with him and quite possibly formally report the matter to protect his back.

A second worry is that if I’ve remembered correctly, the people involved in the ‘double punch’ approach on Azcue are identified in the available documents (or with likely candidates)?

Very interesting though and if I could get my head around how Oswald’s actions might have contributed to such a plan it would be a very neat scenario, and simpler than my currently preferred scenario of a CI op to identify the leak associated with Bakulin and LAROB that I’ve argued in favour of before.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One way of looking at this (LHO) is that he and his handlers piggybacked on an existing operation. This would have, and did, caused a major coverup of the Mexico City ops.

And in that world of coincidences, we find Tony Sforza visiting David Phillips in Mexico City 11/22-23. You'd think he had better things to do.

 

104-10075-10179: JMWAVE CABLE CONCERNING MARITIME EXFIL OF HEADQUARTERS ASSET

11/22/63: cable WAVE 8065 from WAVE to Director, slugline DYVOUR PBRUMEN: On 11/22, CIA maritime officer John Tilton was involved in the attempted exfiltration of AMCANOE-3 from Cuba, one of the most sensitive operations going, called off due to "heavy seas". On 11/22, the story is that Henry Sloman/Tony Sforza leaves WAVE this day to meet with AMHALF-2. "Henry J. Sloman arriving Mexi 22 Nov order meet with AMHALF-2. WAVE expecting priority message, *concerning maritime exfil of Headquarters asset, in NIEXIT pouch which presumably will arrive MEXI 22 Nov. Sloman will contact Choaden (Phillips) by phone either at station or home 23 Nov arrange pick up any material NIEXIT-3 may have received 22 Nov." (Note: AMCANOE-3 killed by Cuban government by Jan. 1964. Bill Simpich, State Secret, Conclusion).

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mae Brussell compiled everything LHO was know to have said from 11/22/63 until he died.  For some reason, he felt compelled to say he was  in Mexico City.. (see below ... 9:30 - 11:15 A.M., SUNDAY MORNING, NOV. 24,1963   Interrogation in Capt. Will Fritz's Office)

 

The Last Words of Lee Harvey Oswald

 

Compiled by Mae Brussell

 

(from The People's Almanac #2)

 


Did Lee Harvey Oswald act alone in shooting Pres. John F. Kennedy on Nov. 22, 1963, or did he conspire with others? Was he serving as an agent of Cuba's Fidel Castro, himself the target of American assassins? Or in squeezing the trigger of his carbine was he undertaking some super "dirty trick" for a CIA anxious to rid itself of a president whose faith in the "company" had evaporated in the wake of the Bay of Pigs fiasco? Or was he representing a group of Cuban exiles, the Teamsters Union, the Mafia? Indeed, was it Lee Harvey Oswald at all who killed JFK? Or was there a double impersonating Oswald? These questions continue to nag many people more than a decade and a half after that dreadful day in Dallas, in spite of the 26 volumes of hearings and exhibits served up by the Warren Commission, the congressional investigations, the release of heretofore classified FBI documents.
      Almost everyone, it seems, has been heard from on the Kennedy assassination and on Lee Harvey Oswald's guilt or innocence, except one person -- Lee Harvey Oswald himself. From the time of Oswald's arrest to his own assassination at the hands of Jack Ruby, no formal transcript or record was kept of statements made by the alleged killer. It was said that no tape recordings were made of Oswald's remarks, and many notes taken of his statements were destroyed.
      Determined to learn Oswald's last words, his only testimony, The People's Almanac assigned one of the leading authorities on the Kennedy assassination, Mae Brussell, to compile every known statement or remark made by Oswald between his arrest and death. The quotes, edited for space and clarity, are based on the recollections of a variety of witnesses present at different times and are not verbatim transcripts. "After 14 years of research on the JFK assassination," Mae Brussell concludes, "I am of the opinion that Lee Harvey Oswald was telling the truth about his role in the assassination during these interrogations."


12:30 P.M., CST, NOV. 22, 1963
Pres. John F. Kennedy Assassinated

12:33 P.M.

      Lee Harvey Oswald left work, entered a bus, and said, "Transfer, please."

12:40 - 12:45 P.M.

      Oswald got off the bus, entered a cab, and said, "May I have this cab?" A woman approached, wanting a cab, and Oswald said, "I will let you have this one. . . . 500 North Beckley Street [instructions to William Whaley, driver of another cab]. . . . This will be fine." Oswald departed cab and walked a few blocks.

1:15 P.M.   Officer J. D. Tippit Murdered

1:45 P.M.   Arrest at the Texas Theater

      "This is it" or "Well, it's all over now." Oswald arrested. (Patrolman M. N. McDonald heard these remarks. Other officers who were at the scene did not hear them.) "I don't know why you are treating me like this. The only thing I have done is carry a pistol into a movie. . . . I don't see why you handcuffed me. . . . Why should I hide my face? I haven't done anything to be ashamed of. . . . I want a lawyer. . . . I am not resisting arrest. . . . I didn't kill anybody. . . . I haven't shot anybody. . . . I protest this police brutality. . . . I fought back there, but I know I wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun. . . . What is this all about?"

2:00 - 2:15 P.M.   Drive to Police Dept.

      "What is this all about? . . . I know my rights. . . . A police officer has been killed? . . . I hear they burn for murder. Well, they say it just takes a second to die. . . . All I did was carry a gun. . . . No, Hidell is not my real name. . . . I have been in the Marine Corps, have a dishonorable discharge, and went to Russia. . . . I had some trouble with police in New Orleans for passing out pro-Castro literature. . . . Why are you treating me this way? . . . I am not being handled right. . . . I demand my rights."

2:15 P.M.   Taken into Police Dept.

2:15 - 2:20 P.M.

      "Talked to" by officers Guy F. Rose and Richard S. Stovall. No notes.

2:25 - 4:04 P.M.   Interrogation of Oswald, Office of Capt Will Fritz

      "My name is Lee Harvey Oswald. . . . I work at the Texas School Book Depository Building. . . . I lived in Minsk and in Moscow. . . . I worked in a factory. . . . I liked everything over there except the weather. . . . I have a wife and some children. . . . My residence is 1026 North Beckley, Dallas, Tex." Oswald recognized FBI agent James Hosty and said, "You have been at my home two or three times talking to my wife. I don't appreciate your coming out there when I was not there. . . . I was never in Mexico City. I have been in Tijuana. . . . Please take the handcuffs from behind me, behind my back. . . . I observed a rifle in the Texas School Book Depository where I work, on Nov. 20, 1963. . . . Mr. Roy Truly, the supervisor, displayed the rifle to individuals in his office on the first floor. . . . I never owned a rifle myself. . . . I resided in the Soviet Union for three years, where I have many friends and relatives of my wife. . . . I was secretary of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans a few months ago. . . . While in the Marines, I received an award for marksmanship as a member of the U.S. Marine Corps. . . . While living on Beckley Street, I used the name 0. H. Lee. . . . I was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building, I have been employed there since Oct. 15, 1963. . . . As a laborer, I have access to the entire building. . . . My usual place of work is on the first floor. However, I frequently use the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh floors to get books. I was on all floors this morning. . . . Because of all the confusion, I figured there would be no work performed that afternoon so I decided to go home. . . . I changed my clothing and went to a movie. . . . I carried a pistol with me to the movie because I felt like it, for no other reason. . . . I fought the Dallas Police who arrested me in the movie theater where I received a cut and a bump. . . . I didn't shoot Pres. John F. Kennedy or Officer J. D. Tippit. . . . An officer struck me, causing the marks on my left eye, after I had struck him. . . . I just had them in there," when asked why he had bullets in his pocket.

3:54 P.M.

      NBC newsman Bill Ryan announced on national television that "Lee Oswald seems to be the prime suspect in the assassination of John F. Kennedy."

4:45 P.M.   At a Lineup for Helen Markham, Witness to Tippit Murder

      "It isn't right to put me in line with these teenagers. . . . You know what you are doing, and you are trying to railroad me. . . . I want my lawyer. . . . You are doing me an injustice by putting me out there dressed different than these other men. . . . I am out there, the only one with a bruise on his head. . . . I don t believe the lineup is fair, and I desire to put on a jacket similar to those worn by some of the other individuals in the lineup. . . . All of you have a shirt on, and I have a T-shirt on. I want a shirt or something. . . . This T-shirt is unfair."

4:45 - 6:30 P.M.   Second Interrogation of Oswald, Captain Fritz's Office

      "When I left the Texas School Book Depository, I went to my room, where I changed my trousers, got a pistol, and went to a picture show. . . . You know how boys do when they have a gun, they carry it. . . . Yes, I had written the Russian Embassy. (On Nov. 9, 1963, Oswald had written to the Russian Embassy that FBI agent James Hosty was making some kind of deals with Marina, and he didn't trust "the notorious FBI.") . . . Mr. Hosty, you have been accosting my wife. You mistreated her on two different occasions when you talked with her. . . . I know you. Well, he threatened her. He practically told her she would have to go back to Russia. You know, I can't use a phone. . . . I want that attorney in New York, Mr. Abt. I don't know him personally but I know about a case that he handled some years ago, where he represented the people who had violated the Smith Act, [which made it illegal to teach or advocate the violent overthrow of the U.S. government] . . . I don't know him personally, but that is the attorney I want. . . . If I can't get him, then I may get the American Civil Liberties Union to send me an attorney."
      "I went to school in New York and in Fort Worth, Tex. . . . After getting into the Marines, I finished my high school education. . . . I support the Castro revolution. . . . My landlady didn't understand my name correctly, so it was her idea to call me 0. H. Lee. . . . I want to talk with Mr. Abt, a New York attorney. . . . The only package I brought to work was my lunch. . . . I never had a card to the Communist party. . . . I am a Marxist, but not a Leninist-Marxist. . . . I bought a pistol in Fort Worth several months ago. . . . I refuse to tell you where the pistol was purchased. . . . I never ordered any guns. . . . I am not malcontent. Nothing irritated me about the President." When Capt. Will Fritz asked Oswald, "Do you believe in a deity?" Oswald replied, "I don't care to discuss that." "How can I afford a rifle on the Book Depository salary of $1.25 an hour? . . . John Kennedy had a nice family. . . ." (Sheriff Roger Craig saw Oswald enter a white station wagon 15 minutes after the assassination. Oswald confirmed this in Captain Fritz's office. A man impersonating Oswald in Dallas just prior to the assassination could have been on the bus and in the taxicab.) "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Ruth Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it. I told you people I did. . . . Everybody will know who I am now."
      "Can I get an attorney?. . . I have not been given the opportunity to have counsel. . . . As I said, the Fair Play for Cuba Committee has definitely been investigated, that is very true. . . . The results of that investigation were zero. The Fair Play for Cuba Committee is not now on the attorney general's subversive list."

6:30 P.M.   Lineup for Witnesses Cecil J. McWatters, Sam Guinyard, and Ted Callaway

      "I didn't shoot anyone," Oswald yelled in the halls to reporters. . . . "I want to get in touch with a lawyer, Mr. Abt, in New York City. . . . I never killed anybody."

7:10 P.M.   Arraignment: State of Texas v. Lee Harvey Oswald for Murder with Malice of Officer J. D. Tippit of the Dallas Police Dept.

      "I insist upon my constitutional rights. . . . The way you are treating me, I might as well be in Russia. . . . I was not granted my request to put on a jacket similar to those worn by other individuals in some previous lineups."

7:50 P.M.   Lineup for Witness J. D. Davis

      "I have been dressed differently than the other three. . . . Don't you know the difference? I still have on the same clothes I was arrested in. The other two were prisoners, already in jail." Seth Kantor, reporter, heard Oswald yell, "I am only a patsy."

7:55 P.M.   Third Interrogation, Captain Fritz's Office

      "I think I have talked long enough. I don't have anything else to say. . . . What started out to be a short interrogation turned out to be rather lengthy. . . . I don't care to talk anymore. . . . I am waiting for someone to come forward to give me legal assistance. . . . It wasn't actually true as to how I got home. I took a bus, but due to a traffic jam, I left the bus and got a taxicab, by which means I actually arrived at my residence."

8:55 P.M.   Fingerprints, Identification Paraffin Tests -- All in Fritz's Office

      "I will not sign the fingerprint card until I talk to my attorney. [Oswald's name is on the card anyway.] . . . What are you trying to prove with this paraffin test, that I fired a gun? . . . You are wasting your time. I don't know anything about what you are accusing me."

11:00 - 11:20 P.M.   "Talked To" by Police Officer John Adamcik and FBI Agent M. Clements

      "I was in Russia two years and liked it in Russia. . . . I am 5 ft. 9 in., weigh 140 lb., have brown hair, blue-gray eyes, and have no tattoos or permanent scars."

(Oswald had mastoidectomy scars and left upper-arm scars, both noted in Marine records. "Warren Report," pp. 614-618, lists information from Oswald obtained during this interview about members of his family, past employment, past residences.)

11:20 - 11:25 P.M.   Lineup for Press Conference; Jack Ruby Present

      When newsmen asked Oswald about his black eye, he answered, "A cop hit me." When asked about the earlier arraignment, Oswald said "Well, I was questioned by Judge Johnston. However, I protested at that time that I was not allowed legal representation during that very short and sweet hearing. I really don't know what the situation is about. Nobody has told me anything except that I am accused of murdering a policeman. I know nothing more than that, and I do request someone to come forward to give me legal assistance." When asked, "Did you kill the President?" Oswald replied, "No. I have not been charged with that. In fact, nobody has said that to me yet. The first thing I heard about it was when the newspaper reporters in the hall asked me that question. . . . I did not do it. I did not do it. . . . I did not shoot anyone."

12:23 A.M., NOV. 23, 1963   Placed in Jail Cell

12:35 A.M.   Released by Jailer

      Oswald complained, "This is the third set of fingerprints, photographs being taken."

1:10 A.M.   Back in Jail Cell

1:35 A.M.   Arraignment: State of Texas v. Lee Harvey Oswald for the Murder with Malice of John F. Kennedy

      "Well, sir, I guess this is the trial. . . . I want to contact my lawyer, Mr. Abt, in New York City. I would like to have this gentleman. He is with the American Civil Liberties Union." (John J. Abt now in private practice in New York, was the general counsel for the Senate Sub-Committee on Civil Liberties from 1935-1937, and later served as legal adviser for the Progressive party from 1948-1951. Mr. Abt has never been a member of the ACLU.)

10:30 A.M.-1:10 P.M.   Interrogation, Capt. Will Fritz's Office

      "I said I wanted to contact Attorney Abt, New York. He defended the Smith Act cases in 1949, 1950, but I don't know his address, except that it is in New York. . . . I never owned a rifle. . . . Michael Paine owned a car, Ruth Paine owned two cars. . . . Robert Oswald, my brother, lives in Fort Worth. He and the Paines were closest friends in town. . . . The FBI has thoroughly interrogated me at various other times. . . . They have used their hard and soft approach to me, and they use the buddy system. . . . I am familiar with all types of questioning and have no intention of making any statements. . . . In the past three weeks the FBI has talked to my wife. They were abusive and impolite. They frightened my wife, and I consider their activities obnoxious."
      (When arrested, Oswald had FBI Agent James Hosty's home phone and office phone numbers and car license number in his possession.)
      "I was arrested in New Orleans for disturbing the peace and paid a $10 fine for demonstrating for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. I had a fight with some anti-Castro refugees and they were released while I was fined. . . . I refuse to take a polygraph. It has always been my practice not to agree to take a polygraph . . . The FBI has overstepped their bounds in using various tactics in interviewing me. . . . I didn't shoot John Kennedy. . . . I didn't even know Gov. John Connally had been shot. . . . I don't own a rifle. . . . I didn't tell Buell Wesley Frazier anything about bringing back some curtain rods. . . . My wife lives with Mrs. Ruth Paine. She [Mrs. Paine] was learning Russian. They needed help with the young baby, so it made a nice arrangement for both of them. . . . I don't know Mrs. Paine very well, but Mr. Paine and his wife were separated a great deal of the time."
      (Michael Paine worked at Bell Aerospace as a scientific engineer. His boss, Walter Dornberger, was a poopoo war criminal. The first call, the "tipoff," on Oswald, came from Bell Aerospace.)
      "The garage at the Paines' house has some seabags that have a lot of my personal belongings. I left them after coming back from New Orleans in September. . . . The name Alek Hidell was picked up while working in New Orleans in the Fair Play for Cuba organization. . . . I speak Russian, correspond with people in Russia, and receive newspapers from Russia. . . . I don't own a rifle at all. . . . I did have a small rifle some years in the past. You can't buy a rifle in Russia, you can only buy shotguns. I had a shotgun in Russia and hunted some while there. I didn't bring the rifle from New Orleans. . . . I am not a member of the Communist party. . . . I belong to the Civil Liberties Union. . . . I did carry a package to the Texas School Book Depository. I carried my lunch, a sandwich and fruit, which I made at Paine's house. . . . I had nothing personal against John Kennedy."

1:10 - 1:30 P.M.   Lee Harvey Oswald Visited by Mother, Marguerite Oswald, and Wife, Marina Oswald

      (To his Mother.) "No, there is nothing you can do. Everything is fine. I know my rights, and I will have an attorney. I already requested to get in touch with Attorney Abt, I think is his name. Don't worry about a thing."
      (To his Wife.) "Oh, no, they have not been beating me. They are treating me fine. . . . You're not to worry about that. Did you bring June and Rachel? . . . Of course we can speak about absolutely anything at all. . . . It's a mistake. I'm not guilty. There are people who will help me. There is a lawyer in New York on whom I am counting for help. . . . Don't cry. There is nothing to cry about. Try not to think about it. . . . Everything is going to be all right. If they ask you anything, you have a right not to answer. You have a right to refuse. Do you understand? . . . You are not to worry. You have friends. They'll help you. If it comes to that, you can ask the Red Cross for help. You mustn't worry about me. Kiss Junie and Rachel for me. I love you. . . . Be sure to buy shoes for June."

2:15 P.M.   Lineup for Witnesses William W. Scoggins and William Whaley

      "I refuse to answer questions. I have my T-shirt on, the other men are dressed differently. . . . Everybody's got a shirt and everything, and I've got a T-shirt on. . . . This is unfair."

3:30 - 3:40 P.M.   Robert Oswald, Brother, in Ten-Minute Visit

      "I cannot or would not say anything, because the line is apparently tapped. [They were talking through telephones.] . . . I got these bruises in the theater. They haven't bothered me since. They are treating me all right. . . . What do you think of the baby? Well, it was a girl, and I wanted a boy, but you know how that goes. . . . I don't know what is going on. I just don't know what they are talking about. . . . Don't believe all the so-called evidence." When Robert Oswald looked into Lee's eyes for some clue, Lee said to him, "Brother, you won't find anything there. . . . My friends will take care of Marina and the two children." When Robert Oswald stated that he didn't believe the Paines were friends of Lee's, he answered back, "Yes, they are. . . . Junie needs a new pair of shoes."
      (Robert Oswald told the Warren Commission, "To me his answers were mechanical, and I was not talking to the Lee I knew.")

3:40 P.M.   Lee Harvey Oswald Calls Mrs. Ruth Paine

      "This is Lee. Would you please call John Abt in New York for me after 6:00 P.M. The number for his office is ___________, and his residence is _______________ . . . . Thank you for your concern."

5:30 - 5:35 P.M.   Visit with H. Louis Nichols, President of the Dallas Bar Association

      "Well, I really don't know what this is all about, that I have been kept incarcerated and kept incommunicado. . . . Do you know a lawyer in New York named John Abt? I believe in New York City. I would like to have him represent me. That is the man I would like. Do you know any lawyers who are members of the American Civil Liberties Union? I am a member of that organization, and I would like to have somebody who is a member of that organization represent me." Mr. Nichols offered to help find a lawyer, but Oswald said, "No, not now. You might come back next week, and if I don't get some of these other people to assist me, I might ask you to get somebody to represent me."

6:00 - 6:30 P.M.   Interrogation, Captain Fritz's Office

      "In time I will be able to show you that this is not my picture, but I don't want to answer any more questions. . . . I will not discuss this photograph [which was used on the cover of Feb. 21, 1964 Life magazine] without advice of an attorney. . . . There was another rifle in the building. I have seen it. Warren Caster had two rifles, a 30.06 Mauser and a .22 for his son. . . . That picture is not mine, but the face is mine. The picture has been made by superimposing my face. The other part of the picture is not me at all, and I have never seen this picture before. I understand photography real well, and that, in time, I will be able to show you that is not my picture and that it has been made by someone else. . . . It was entirely possible that the Police Dept. has superimposed this part of the photograph over the body of someone else. . . . The Dallas Police were the culprits. . . . The small picture was reduced from the larger one, made by some persons unknown to me. . . . Since I have been photographed at City Hall, with people taking my picture while being transferred from the office to the jail door, someone has been able to get a picture of my face, and with that, they have made this picture. . . . I never kept a rifle at Mrs. Paine's garage at Irving, Tex. . . . We had no visitors at our apartment on North Beckley. . . . I have no receipts for purchase of any gun, and I have never ordered any guns. I do not own a rifle, never possessed a rifle. . . . I will not say who wrote A. J. Hidell on my Selective Service card. [It was later confirmed that Marina Oswald wrote in the name Hidell.] . . . I will not tell you the purpose of carrying the card or the use I made of it. . . . The address book in my possession has the names of Russian immigrants in Dallas, Tex., whom I have visited."

9:30 P.M.   Lee Harvey Oswald Calls His Wife, Marina, at Mrs. Paine's Home

      "Marina, please. Would you try to locate her?" (Marina had moved.)

10:00 P.M.   Office of Captain Fritz

      "Life is better for the colored people in Russia than it is in the U.S."

9:30 - 11:15 A.M., SUNDAY MORNING, NOV. 24,1963   Interrogation in Capt. Will Fritz's Office

      "After the assassination, a policeman or some man came rushing into the School Book Depository Building and said, `Where is your telephone?' He showed me some kind of credential and identified himself, so he might not have been a police officer. . . . `Right there,' I answered, pointing to the phone. . . . `Yes, I can eat lunch with you,' I told my co-worker, `but I can't go right now. You go and take the elevator, but send the elevator back up.' [The elevator in the building was broken.] . . . After all this commotion started, I just went downstairs and started to see what it was all about. A police officer and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told officers that I am one of the employees in the building. . . . If you ask me about the shooting of Tippit, I don't know what you are talking about. . . . The only thing I am here for is because I popped a policeman in the nose in the theater on Jefferson Avenue, which I readily admit I did, because I was protecting myself. . . . I learned about the job vacancy at the Texas School Book Depository from people in Mrs. Paine's neighborhood. . . . I visited my wife Thursday night, Nov. 21, whereas I normally visited her over the weekend, because Mrs. Paine was giving a party for the children on the weekend. They were having a houseful of neighborhood children. I didn't want to be around at such a time. . . . Therefore, my weekly visit was on Thursday night instead of on the weekend. . . . It didn't cost much to go to Mexico. It cost me some $26, a small, ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous small amount to stay all night. . . . I went to the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by way of Cuba. . . . I went to the Mexican Consulate in Mexico City. I went to the Russian Embassy to go to Russia by way of Cuba. They told me to come back in `thirty days.' . . . I don't recall the shape, it may have been a small sack, or a large sack; you don't always find one that just fits your sandwiches. . . . The sack was in the car, beside me, on my lap, as it always is. . . . I didn't get it crushed. It was not on the back seat. Mr. Frazier must have been mistaken or else thinking about the other time when he picked me up. . . . The Fair Play for Cuba Committee was a loosely organized thing and we had no officers. Probably you can call me the secretary of it because I did collect money. [Oswald was the only member in New Orleans.] . . . In New York City they have a well-organized, or a better, organization. . . . No, not at all: I didn't intend to organize here in Dallas; I was too busy trying to get a job. . . . If anyone else was entitled to get mail in P.O. Box 6525 at the Terminal Annex in New Orleans, the answer is no. . . . The rental application said Fair Play for Cuba Committee and the American Civil Liberties Union. Maybe I put them on there. . . . It is possible that on rare occasions I may have handed one of the keys to my wife to get my mail, but certainly nobody else. . . . I never ordered a rifle under the name of Hidell, Oswald, or any other name. . . . I never permitted anyone else to order a rifle to be received in this box. . . . I never ordered any rifle by mail order or bought any money order for the purpose of paying for such a rifle. . . . I didn't own any rifle. I have not practiced or shot with a rifle. . . . I subscribe to two publications from Russia, one being a hometown paper published in Minsk, where I met and married my wife. . . . We moved around so much that it was more practical to simply rent post office boxes and have mail forwarded from one box to the next rather than going through the process of furnishing changes of address to the publishers. . . . Marina Oswald and A. J. Hidell were listed under the caption of persons entitled to receive mail through my box in New Orleans. . . . I don't recall anything about the A. J. Hidell being on the post office card. . . . I presume you have reference to a map I had in my room with some X's on it. I have no automobile. I have no means of conveyance. I have to walk from where I am going most of the time. I had my applications with the Texas Employment Commission. They furnished me names and addresses of places that had openings like I might fill, and neighborhood people had furnished me information on jobs I might get. . . . I was seeking a job, and I would put these markings on this map so I could plan my itinerary around with less walking. Each one of these X's represented a place where I went and interviewed for a job. . . . You can check each one of them out if you want to. . . . The X on the intersection of Elm and Houston is the location of the Texas School Book Depository. I did go there and interview for a job. In fact, I got the job there. That is all the map amounts to. [Ruth Paine later stated she had marked Lee's map.] . . . What religion am I? I have no faith, I suppose you mean, in the Bible. I have read the Bible. It is fair reading, but not very interesting. As a matter of fact, I am a student of philosophy and I don't consider the Bible as even a reasonable or intelligent philosophy. I don't think of it. . . . I told you I haven't shot a rifle since the Marines, possibly a small bore, maybe a .22, but not anything larger since I have left the Marine Corps. . . . I never received a package sent to me through the mailbox in Dallas, Box No. 2915, under the name of Alek Hidell, absolutely not. . . . Maybe my wife, but I couldn't say for sure whether my wife ever got this mail, but it is possible she could have." Oswald was told that an attorney offered to assist him, and he answered, "I don't particularly want him, but I will take him if I can't do any better, and will contact him at a later date. . . . I have been a student of Marxism since the age of 14. . . . American people will soon forget the President was shot, but I didn't shoot him. . . . Since the President was killed, someone else would take his place, perhaps Vice-President Johnson. His views about Cuba would probably be largely the same as those of President Kennedy. . . . I never lived on Neely Street. These people are mistaken about visiting there, because I never lived there. . . . It might not be proper to answer further questions, because what I say might be construed in a different light than what I actually meant it to be. . . . When the head of any government dies, or is killed, there is always a second in command who would take over. . . . I did not kill President Kennedy or Officer Tippit. If you want me to cop out to hitting or pleading guilty to hitting a cop in the mouth when I was arrested, yeah, I plead guilty to that. But I do deny shooting both the President and Tippit."

11:10 A.M.   Preparation for Oswald's Transfer to County Jail

      "I would like to have a shirt from clothing that was brought to the office to wear over the T-shirt I am wearing. . . . I prefer wearing a black Ivy League-type shirt, which might be a little warmer. I don't want a hat. . . . I will just take one of those sweaters, the black one."

11:15 A.M.   Inspector Thomas J. Kelley, U.S. Secret Service, Has Final Conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald

      Kelley approached Oswald, out of the hearing of others, except perhaps Captain Fritz's men, and said that as a Secret Service agent, he was anxious to talk with him as soon as he secured counsel, because Oswald was charged with the assassination of the President but had denied it. Oswald said, "I will be glad to discuss this proposition with my attorney, and that after I talk with one, we could either discuss it with him or discuss it with my attorney, if the attorney thinks it is a wise thing to do, but at the present time I have nothing more to say to you."

11:21 A.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Was Fatally Wounded by Jack Ruby

 


Home
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Chuck, actually that is one of the sources I cite in Tipping Point and I think its very revealing in regard to Oswald's actual understanding of what was going on around him and the lack of his knowledge of the forces in play around him.  And its important to remember that he was a) not at all stupid and b) very much aware that he would end up on trial.

Beyond that, and its just me - I'd trust Lee's remarks over Robert's:

"Yes, they are. . . . Junie needs a new pair of shoes."
      (Robert Oswald told the Warren Commission, "To me his answers were mechanical, and I was not talking to the Lee I knew.")

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have not read Tipping Point yet, however, the close association between anti-Castro Cuban intelligence activities and Lee Oswald and the lack of understanding of his own role has been elaborated in "JFK The Second Plot" by Matthew Smith in 1992, and it kind of matches the discussions here. Lee Oswald was led through a labyrinth of anti-Cuban operations that summer 1963 and after his attempt to get to Cuba in September 1963 failed (it was never really planned to succeed but Lee did not know), he was sent to Dallas to wait for the opportunity to be flawn to Cuba directly using a small aircraft. He was told that this clandestine operation would best take off when the President is in Dallas as nobody will pay any attention to what aaircraft departs from the Red Bird airport. Contrary to my working hypothesis of Oswald involvement (Lee taking part in a mock shooting attempt by bringing his rifle), Lee Oswald hurried from the Depository only because he had a randevous to make, with J.D. Tippitt supposed to provide a transfer to the airport. In the meantime, there was a an APB roughly matching Lee Oswald, and Tippitt became suspicious of possible Lee Oswald's involement in Presindent's killing. The person who lured Tippitt to tranfering Lee Oswald to the airport (Roscoe White?) was at the scene (possibly even brought Lee from North Beckley in a car) and it was that person who shot Tippitt. He had to do it because Tippitt would get to know too much about both plots and who was behind and could point directly to the person who asked for the transfer. Miss Acquilla Clemons's account would match this scenario quite well.

The scenario rests on the author's interview with Wayne January who described in great detail the visit of three persons (Oswald sitting in the car and not present during the talking) at Red Bird airport aimed to rent a small plane with a pilot for flight; the two people told January enough for him to understand that this plane would be hijacked on route, and he declined the contract. However, people in Red Bird  airport area complained about an aircraft revving its engine the whole afternoon as if waiting for a hasty departure.  

Thus, Lee Oswald, according to "The Second Plot" , did not know anything about the plot to kill the President, however, he knew a lot about the second plot and that would be enough to expose the assassination plot. Also, the second plot was based totally on the intelligence operations involving the CIA and the anti-Castro Cuband during summer of 1963. The whole purpose of the second plot was to fly Oswald to Cuba right after the assassination and then pin all guilt on him. The result would be a request of the public to attack Cuba.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

I have not read Tipping Point yet, however, the close association between anti-Castro Cuban intelligence activities and Lee Oswald and the lack of understanding of his own role has been elaborated in "JFK The Second Plot" by Matthew Smith in 1992, and it kind of matches the discussions here. Lee Oswald was led through a labyrinth of anti-Cuban operations that summer 1963 and after his attempt to get to Cuba in September 1963 failed (it was never really planned to succeed but Lee did not know), he was sent to Dallas to wait for the opportunity to be flawn to Cuba directly using a small aircraft. He was told that this clandestine operation would best take off when the President is in Dallas as nobody will pay any attention to what aaircraft departs from the Red Bird airport. Contrary to my working hypothesis of Oswald involvement (Lee taking part in a mock shooting attempt by bringing his rifle), Lee Oswald hurried from the Depository only because he had a randevous to make, with J.D. Tippitt supposed to provide a transfer to the airport. In the meantime, there was a an APB roughly matching Lee Oswald, and Tippitt became suspicious of possible Lee Oswald's involement in Presindent's killing. The person who lured Tippitt to tranfering Lee Oswald to the airport (Roscoe White?) was at the scene (possibly even brought Lee from North Beckley in a car) and it was that person who shot Tippitt. He had to do it because Tippitt would get to know too much about both plots and who was behind and could point directly to the person who asked for the transfer. Miss Acquilla Clemons's account would match this scenario quite well.

The scenario rests on the author's interview with Wayne January who described in great detail the visit of three persons (Oswald sitting in the car and not present during the talking) at Red Bird airport aimed to rent a small plane with a pilot for flight; the two people told January enough for him to understand that this plane would be hijacked on route, and he declined the contract. However, people in Red Bird  airport area complained about an aircraft revving its engine the whole afternoon as if waiting for a hasty departure.  

Thus, Lee Oswald, according to "The Second Plot" , did not know anything about the plot to kill the President, however, he knew a lot about the second plot and that would be enough to expose the assassination plot. Also, the second plot was based totally on the intelligence operations involving the CIA and the anti-Castro Cuband during summer of 1963. The whole purpose of the second plot was to fly Oswald to Cuba right after the assassination and then pin all guilt on him. The result would be a request of the public to attack Cuba.

 

 

 

 

Andrej,

      If I recall correctly, in addition to seeing Oswald at Red Bird Airport prior to the assassination, Wayne January prepped and leased a (? 20 passenger) airplane which departed from Red Bird in the afternoon on 11/23/63.  The Cuban pilot who helped January prep the plane told him, during a lunch break, that his associates were in Dallas to kill the President.

     I read this account in James Douglass's book JFK and the Unspeakable.

Edited by W. Niederhut
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

   I read this account in James Douglass's book JFK and the Unspeakable.

Thanks for reminding me, James Douglas had indeed described Wayne January's story in his book. Your memory serves you well.

The possibility of two parallel plots, one to send Oswald to Cuba in the immediate aftermath of assassination and one to kill the President looks very logical and coherent to me. Lee Oswald played his spy games, he was led to believe he was in a plot against Castro, and he did not know anything about the other plot. This explains why he was genuinely surprised of being arreigned for killing the President when paraded in front of newsmen in Dallas Police headquarters.

There is one more interesting aspect to the other plot. Lee Oswald likely issued a clue during 12 hours of his interrogation of him being associated with one or more intelligence agencies - those that handled him during the summer. This may have been the reason for not having taken any notes, or stenographic or audio recordings during the interrogations. If Captain Fritz gave a call to Langley to check up on Lee Oswlad, he would hear a clear denial but also a strict order not to take any records during the interrogations. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...