Synchronized Shots

[Chuck Schwartz]

Doug Horne wrote a book " JFK's War with the National Security Establishment: Why JFK was Assassinated" .   I ordered it (paperback)  from Amazon for $13 (before shipping and taxes). It appears that the book was written in 2013 or 2014.

[Ron Bulman]

Notes from yesterday, (I've still got 45 minutes left).

At 3:41 Horne mentions NSAM 263 was Top Secret, it was not done to leverage Diem, as others have claimed.

Then  further on he says Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara was first briefed on how bad things really were in Vietnam on 11/20/63 by the chief of the Joint Chief of Staffs General Maxwell Taylor.  Two days before the assassination.  That Taylor had to know JFK wouldn't survive Dallas and was informing McNamara of imminent changes in policy. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Ron Bulman

[Chuck Schwartz]

Yes, I believe the JCS were not active in the planning of the big event, but did approve it - in order to get their war in Vietnam and LBJ approved the war ahead of time.  Wed. (tomorrow evening) will be the last of the JFKA presentations.  It will be Questions and Answers only. Doug Horne and John Newman will be on the panel giving the answers. Could be interesting.

[Adam Johnson]

HI RON,  you said, QUOTE: "Why he was aiming for the neck."  To take out his larynx and prevent any verbal reaction to the back shot or any other that wasn't the kill shot.  I.E. a miss that say hit say is ear or neck instead of the head.  I have wondered before if in their expertise or experience they didn't expect such a shot to cause him to sit up straight grabbing for his throat and provide a clearer elevated target for the head shot(s). 

Ron, i think you maybe over thinking it and you might be giving way to much credit for how accurate a shooter could be...

If there was a frontal shot that struck jfk thru his neck tie, i have to say that in my opinion it was just a poor shot.

What i mean by this is the shooter misjudged his required firing point. A frontal shooter had to allow for cross wind, targets speed in approaching the shooters firing position, the increased downward slope the limo was about to undertake while traveling further along Elm Street towards his firing position and track any movement forward,backwards or sideways by JFK. Basically to hit JFK between the eyes they may have set there crosshairs on the tip of his nose or mouth or chin...depending on there range/distance to the target and how powerful the rifle was and the ammunition they had chosen. 

To be honest if the throat wound came from the front it was more likely someone aiming at the chest(centre mass) of JFK but failed to take into consideration that the bullet would strike above the point of where their crosshairs were aiming, due to the limo moving towards the target reducing range and the limo being on a downward trajectory. 

I have stated on this forum many times before i do not believe a frontal shot went thru the windscreen and struck JFK in the throat.  I do believe it was possible for a shot to pass over the top of the windscreen and hit JFK in the throat.  Unfortunately im still not totally convinced that is what happened.

[John Butler]

4 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

If there was a frontal shot that struck jfk thru his neck tie, i have to say that in my opinion it was just a poor shot.

What i mean by this is the shooter misjudged his required firing point. A frontal shooter had to allow for cross wind, targets speed in approaching the shooters firing position, the increased downward slope the limo was about to undertake while traveling further along Elm Street towards his firing position and track any movement forward,backwards or sideways by JFK. Basically to hit JFK between the eyes they may have set there crosshairs on the tip of his nose or mouth or chin...depending on there range/distance to the target and how powerful the rifle was and the ammunition they had chosen. 

To be honest if the throat wound came from the front it was more likely someone aiming at the chest(centre mass) of JFK but failed to take into consideration that the bullet would strike above the point of where their crosshairs were aiming, due to the limo moving towards the target reducing range and the limo being on a downward trajectory. 

I agree to a certain extent.  But, I believe the neck and head shot on Elm were lucky shots.  It not, then there was a highly skilled shooter in the front.  One who may have practiced his shots in a similar location elsewhere.  Military people were in those days trained to shoot center mass, the trunk area.  The M1/30.06 and M14/7.62 rounds are powerful enough to kill by hydrostatic shock if the wound didn't do it outright.  A German Mauser is similar in effectiveness.  I don't know about the Carcano.  It was a tumbling or twisting round that could strike sideways creating a larger wound.

In the CBS tests only a skilled marksman could do what Oswald was purported to have done.  And, this was only after several attempts and practice.  Shooting from the Railroad Bridge or the Grassy Knoll or the South Knoll is somewhat different from shooting from the 6th floor of the TSBD.  Besides, there are about 10 witnesses on 4th and 3rd floor who said shooting came from some place other than the building above them.   They were less then 40 feet from the Sniper's Nest. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by John Butler

[John Butler]

5 hours ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

Yes, I believe the JCS were not active in the planning of the big event, but did approve it - in order to get their war in Vietnam and LBJ approved the war ahead of time.  Wed. (tomorrow evening) will be the last of the JFKA presentations.  It will be Questions and Answers only. Doug Horne and John Newman will be on the panel giving the answers. Could be interesting.

Yes, but what were all those generals and admirals doing at the autopsy?  Folks said they were in charge since this was a military hospital.

[Chris Davidson]

Did someone mention a 10" drop ?

[John Butler]

Chris,

Which Z frame is this?  

It resembles some of the artwork in several other questionable films.  But, it has to be Zapruder.  Which?

[Chris Davidson]

Extant 207

[Ron Bulman]

12 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

HI RON,  you said, QUOTE: "Why he was aiming for the neck."  To take out his larynx and prevent any verbal reaction to the back shot or any other that wasn't the kill shot.  I.E. a miss that say hit say is ear or neck instead of the head.  I have wondered before if in their expertise or experience they didn't expect such a shot to cause him to sit up straight grabbing for his throat and provide a clearer elevated target for the head shot(s). 

Ron, i think you maybe over thinking it and you might be giving way to much credit for how accurate a shooter could be...

If there was a frontal shot that struck jfk thru his neck tie, i have to say that in my opinion it was just a poor shot.

What i mean by this is the shooter misjudged his required firing point. A frontal shooter had to allow for cross wind, targets speed in approaching the shooters firing position, the increased downward slope the limo was about to undertake while traveling further along Elm Street towards his firing position and track any movement forward,backwards or sideways by JFK. Basically to hit JFK between the eyes they may have set there crosshairs on the tip of his nose or mouth or chin...depending on there range/distance to the target and how powerful the rifle was and the ammunition they had chosen. 

To be honest if the throat wound came from the front it was more likely someone aiming at the chest(centre mass) of JFK but failed to take into consideration that the bullet would strike above the point of where their crosshairs were aiming, due to the limo moving towards the target reducing range and the limo being on a downward trajectory. 

I have stated on this forum many times before i do not believe a frontal shot went thru the windscreen and struck JFK in the throat.  I do believe it was possible for a shot to pass over the top of the windscreen and hit JFK in the throat.  Unfortunately im still not totally convinced that is what happened.

Hi Adam.  I've always found your posts informative and appreciate them but beg to differ a bit on this one.

Based on Dr. Perry and Doug Horne. Dr. Perry emphasized a small, neat entrance wound, he or another stated small caliber.  All of them experienced in gunshot wounds.  Horne suggests a .22 in a recent presentation.

Practiced 22 shooters in competition at 50 yards are not happy when 5 shots don't land in the size of a dime, or, if they're not all connected at least.  Experts are unhappy if they all don't all go through the same hole.  Don't believe me, info is available on the world wide web.  Though I have shot a squirrel off a power line from 30-40 yards just because my wife didn't believe I couldn't, with no rest.  I simmered it in gravy.  It didn't go to waste, though she refused to eat any.

I believe the discrepancy in the Parkland description and the Bethesda death stare photo is due to surgery to remove remnants of of a .22 hollow point.  A less than 1" slice for a tracheotomy to a nearly 3" butchery.  

[Ron Bulman]

27 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

Extant 207

One of the most important frames in existence.  Look at Agent Ready reacting, head turned right reacting to sounds from the TSBD or GK.  The two agents immediately in the back ground behind him also seem perturbed.  The Motorcycle cop in front of him is looking at JFK, not the road in front of him.

JFK is hit in the back?  Only Kellerman hears him say "I am Hit"? 

Instantly the throat shot?  Timed, synchronized shots?

Agent Ready steps off the running board, reacting.

Agent Roberts says Get Back on Board! 

[Adam Johnson]

Hiya folks,

Ron i agree with you 100% the throat wound/tracheotomy incision was explored, enlarged and made jagged at Bethesda. 

I have been firing rifles for 30 years at kangaroo's, wild boar, feral cats and rabbits. 30-40 yards shots at a stationary target i could make with one testicle tied behind my back. This shot is a little special Ron.

Anyone 50 yards from the limo and able to strike JFK in the throat with a frontal entrance trajectory at Z190 to Z224 would have been standing out in the open in Dealey Plaza. 

A frontal shot made between Z190 to Z224 would have to be made by someone concealed so well, we still havent found them almost 60 years later...they had to be at least 130 plus yards away from the limo(from the plaza plats ive seen)...behind cover and in an elevated position not on the horizontal or below the limo. They were not standing up on the overpass above main or commerce or just to the south of commerce (they had no cover from the 2 dpd officers up on the triple underpass). They couldnt have fired from JFK's right because the trajectory would put the bullet into his spine or out the other side of his neck(which didn't happen).

The shot is getting harder even with a .22 here Ron and you have to take into account whatever psychological factors the shooter was dealing with, especially capture or death from law enforcement once he fired and risked giving up whatever concealment they had...its a tough tough shot...

In my opinion all this means getting back to your post Ron is no shooter on earth is taking the assignment "you have to shoot the President in the larynx after you hear the first shot to shut him up!".

I too enjoy reading your posts Ron, sorry to be a little harsh...all the best stay safe. 

PS. I still feel its getting more likely he was struck from the front and in the back (2shots), but its also still possible it was a back to front shot from the Dal-Tex aswell, and that part of the bullet made its way out JFK's throat and thru his shirt and tie then struck the inside of the limousine windscreen. 

Something flew closely passed Governor Connelly's left ear as the president was hit prior to Z225.

[John Butler]

10 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Extant 207

Chris,

Sorry, I wasn't able to find that frame.  Here is my copy from Costella:

I wonder why there is a difference?  Costella did do some editing if I am recalling correctly?

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

A frontal shot made between Z190 to Z224 would have to be made by someone concealed so well, we still havent found them almost 60 years later...they had to be at least 130 plus yards away from the limo(from the plaza plats ive seen)...behind cover and in an elevated position not on the horizontal or below the limo. They were not standing up on the overpass above main or commerce or just to the south of commerce (they had no cover from the 2 dpd officers up on the triple underpass). They couldnt have fired from JFK's right because the trajectory would put the bullet into his spine or out the other side of his neck(which didn't happen).

The two DPD officers, Foster and White, said there was a train on the railroad bridge.  Foster didn't say that at first, but did later on in testimony.  A third DPD officer, Brown, out on the Stemmons Overpass, said the same thing.  Altgens 7 said no there was no train.  Who do you believe?  Altered photos or questionable testimony from 3 DPD officers.

3 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

PS. I still feel its getting more likely he was struck from the front and in the back (2shots), but its also still possible it was a back to front shot from the Dal-Tex aswell, and that part of the bullet made its way out JFK's throat and thru his shirt and tie then struck the inside of the limousine windscreen. 

Junior Jarman changed his initial testimony at his WC hearing.  He said he heard firing from low and to the left.  That means the Dal-Tex on a lower floor.

[Ron Bulman]

On 5/17/2021 at 11:15 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Notes from yesterday, (I've still got 45 minutes left).

At 3:41 Horne mentions NSAM 263 was Top Secret, it was not done to leverage Diem, as others have claimed.

Then  further on he says Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara was first briefed on how bad things really were in Vietnam on 11/20/63 by the chief of the Joint Chief of Staffs General Maxwell Taylor.  Two days before the assassination.  That Taylor had to know JFK wouldn't survive Dallas and was informing McNamara of imminent changes in policy. 

I finally finished that last 45minutes.  The whole thing is outstanding.  Anyone interested in the Truth should take the time to watch it.  I realize some won't because of the length but at least watch the last 30 - 45 minutes.  The pictures, most of which I've never seen before along with his commentary as a summary are well worth the time, actually moving at points.

Notes from the last 45 minutes.

"It was a military ambush", from a noted Naval military historian and and  ARRB investigator, Mr. Horne.

Jack Valenti from the LBJ administration attacking the movie JFK by Oliver Stone so many years later.

The picture of Le May and Taylor leading the other JCS out of the Cathedral is priceless, worth watching for in itself.  Doug asks what were they thinking.  The same thing as David Morales said later imho.

De Gaulle and MacArthur advising JFK, no Vietnam.  Already known by many but an important point.

The rider less horse with the empty boots in the stirrups.  I don't remember JFK Jr saluting his father but I do remember this and asking my parents, why?  Respect for a fallen soldier.  And as Horne notes in terms of symbolism the horse has been empty since.

Ted Sorensen on why JFK ran for the presidency, to stop  the cold war in essence, the possibility of nuclear annihilation.  One of his closest friends and top speech writer.

Lemnitzer's glaring in a couple of photo's is telling.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Ron Bulman