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1 minute ago, Denny Zartman said:

Benjamin, why do you persist in believing Oswald was on the sixth floor shooting?

Oswald was seen on the first floor at 12:25 and on the second floor at 12:32, and he was not sweating or out of breath. That's just not possible. Do the facts not matter to you at all?

Denny Z-

OK we just have a different take on this one. No biggie.

LOH was a young man, former Marine. It was cool day in Dallas (note people wearing coats). 

Surely, LOH could ascend the floors to the sixth floor in a few minutes. As for coming down---sheesh, when you are 24, going down a flight of stairs is nothing. It is literally downhill. 

As for the 12:25 sighting of LOH...is that a hard time, or could be off a minute or two? The 12:32 time is solid, but the 12:25 time is witness testimony. People do not monitor each other by the minute. 

But, you could be right. It may be LOH agreed to be the patsy in a false-flag fake assassination attempt, and then edged to a place where he could make a quick getaway. Someone else (Eladio Del Valle?) was to take to fake shot at the President, and then run down the back stairs and get out. The plan was for the rifle to be traced to LOH, but by then he would be long-gone. But Del Valle shot in earnest as did another gunman, and possibly someone from the Grassy Knoll.

The problem with LOH being totally uninvolved and a patsy is his CIA background, and his going home to get his gun, by taxi too. He knew he had been set up. How could LOH know he had been set up if he was a mere box-boy doing his job? 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Denny Zartman said:

This was my view from behind the fence in 2010, arrow pointing to the x on the street.

jfk knoll fence view.JPG

Denny Z--

Great picture. Thanks for posting. There is the x. So, it appears the concrete wall would present a problem, until the limo emerged from behind it. 

Funny how small those people in your photo look, to the right of the red arrow. They look shorter than the red sedan going down the road, like people in a H0-scale railroad display. 

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1 minute ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Denny Z-

OK we just have a different take on this one. No biggie.

LOH was a young man, former Marine. It was cool day in Dallas (note people wearing coats). 

Surely, LOH could ascend the floors to the sixth floor in a few minutes. As for coming down---sheesh, when you are 24, going down a flight of stairs is nothing. It is literally downhill. 

As for the 12:25 sighting of LOH...is that a hard time, or could be off a minute or two? The 12:32 time is solid, but the 12:25 time is witness testimony. People do not monitor each other by the minute. 

But, you could be right. It may be LOH agreed to be the patsy in a false-flag fake assassination attempt, and then edged to a place where he could make a quick getaway. Someone else (Eladio Del Valle?) was to take to fake shot at the President, and then run down the back stairs and get out. The plan was for the rifle to be traced to LOH, but by then he would be long-gone. But Del Valle shot in earnest as did another gunman, and possibly someone from the Grassy Knoll.

The problem with LOH being totally uninvolved and a patsy is his CIA background, and his going home to get his gun, by taxi too. He knew he had been set up. How could LOH know he had been set up if he was a mere box-boy doing his job? 

 

 

Nobody says he was totally uninvolved. No one. Why do you think the only options are him in the snipers nest or him being a 100% innocent bystander?

In your scenario he was a professional part of a professional fake flag operation. Why wasn't he in place on the sixth floor at 12:25, the time when Kennedy's car was supposed to pass?

In your scenario, in five minutes he ran up five flights of stairs, ran the entire diagonal length of the sixth floor from the nw corner to the se corner through a maze of boxes, grabbed a rifle of some sort, and fired at the last few possible seconds. That's what he has to do in five minutes.

And then in the next three minutes immediately following, he ran back the full diagonal length of the sixth floor through a maze of boxes, stashed the Mauser, then ran down five flights of creaky stairs, not seen or heard by others also descending at the time.

After all this, he was not sweating or out of breath.

It's just not humanly possible to do all that in that length of time, and not be noticeably sweating or out of breath, it simply isn't.

This isn't a matter of differing opinions and agreeing to disagree about a meaningless piece of trivia, this is about common sense and reality. No matter how young and in shape you are, you're still going to show some signs of exertion running up five flights of stairs, a maze twice, and down four flights all in one go. Olympic athletes are in the best possible physical condition, and even they display physical signs after strenuous exertions. Oswald might have been young, but he was no Olympian. How many years since basic training? Any witnesses say he was exercising regularly? These facts matter.

And we are not even mentioning:

- Lack of nitrates on his cheek.

- That he was not seen or heard by others descending those creaky stairs at the same time. If he was "practically going downhill" then he would be dropping his full body weight repeatedly on those stairs every flight. You know that, I know that, anyone who has ever descended a flight of stairs rapidly knows that.

- The natural stress that would also come along with the act of firing a rifle at the president of the United States.

Not only was he fitter than an Olympian, he was lighter than a feather, invisible, the world's greatest actor, and also had nerves of steel. A real pro, so why wasn't he in position at the time the target was passing?

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1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Denny Z-

OK we just have a different take on this one. No biggie.

LOH was a young man, former Marine. It was cool day in Dallas (note people wearing coats). 

Surely, LOH could ascend the floors to the sixth floor in a few minutes. As for coming down---sheesh, when you are 24, going down a flight of stairs is nothing. It is literally downhill. 

As for the 12:25 sighting of LOH...is that a hard time, or could be off a minute or two? The 12:32 time is solid, but the 12:25 time is witness testimony. People do not monitor each other by the minute. 

But, you could be right. It may be LOH agreed to be the patsy in a false-flag fake assassination attempt, and then edged to a place where he could make a quick getaway. Someone else (Eladio Del Valle?) was to take to fake shot at the President, and then run down the back stairs and get out. The plan was for the rifle to be traced to LOH, but by then he would be long-gone. But Del Valle shot in earnest as did another gunman, and possibly someone from the Grassy Knoll.

The problem with LOH being totally uninvolved and a patsy is his CIA background, and his going home to get his gun, by taxi too. He knew he had been set up. How could LOH know he had been set up if he was a mere box-boy doing his job? 

 

 

Why do you abbreviate Lee Harvey Oswald as LOH? Just curious. 

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8 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

The shot above (range approx 50 metres, negligible bullet drop) would have the cross-hairs trained on the top of his necktie, following the target with a slight traverse. If you're shooter was a professional assassin, you'd have to ask why he was aiming for the neck.

"Why he was aiming for the neck."  To take out his larynx and prevent any verbal reaction to the back shot or any other that wasn't the kill shot.  I.E. a miss that say hit say is ear or neck instead of the head.  I have wondered before if in their expertise or experience they didn't expect such a shot to cause him to sit up straight grabbing for his throat and provide a clearer elevated target for the head shot(s). 

I've also wondered if it might have been a message to those "in the know" / participating or maybe even to JFK himself or anyone who notice it immediately that they were about to shut him up permanently.

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3 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

"Why he was aiming for the neck."  To take out his larynx and prevent any verbal reaction to the back shot or any other that wasn't the kill shot. 

On Friday night at Bethesda, Kellerman told O'Neill that he heard JFK speak, so obviously, according to Kellerman, the GK larynx shot failed. 

As you know, I have the GK as the source of the gunpowder smell, the smoke, the "firecracker" noise witnesses first heard, but not the shooter. In other words, a distraction. Which brings up a further question regarding you're proposed shot;

What type of 22 would cause smoke that was visible to witnesses?

Logically, smoke and noise is bound to attract attention. I can't imagine, if I were an assassin, that I'd signal my position. Its the same with the Sniper's nest, what assassin would extend his barrel over a crowd? What we have is ... look over here, look over there ... meanwhile, in a completely different position, the actual shooter calmly escapes unnoticed. 

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11 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

Nobody says he was totally uninvolved. No one. Why do you think the only options are him in the snipers nest or him being a 100% innocent bystander?

In your scenario he was a professional part of a professional fake flag operation. Why wasn't he in place on the sixth floor at 12:25, the time when Kennedy's car was supposed to pass?

In your scenario, in five minutes he ran up five flights of stairs, ran the entire diagonal length of the sixth floor from the nw corner to the se corner through a maze of boxes, grabbed a rifle of some sort, and fired at the last few possible seconds. That's what he has to do in five minutes.

And then in the next three minutes immediately following, he ran back the full diagonal length of the sixth floor through a maze of boxes, stashed the Mauser, then ran down five flights of creaky stairs, not seen or heard by others also descending at the time.

After all this, he was not sweating or out of breath.

It's just not humanly possible to do all that in that length of time, and not be noticeably sweating or out of breath, it simply isn't.

This isn't a matter of differing opinions and agreeing to disagree about a meaningless piece of trivia, this is about common sense and reality. No matter how young and in shape you are, you're still going to show some signs of exertion running up five flights of stairs, a maze twice, and down four flights all in one go. Olympic athletes are in the best possible physical condition, and even they display physical signs after strenuous exertions. Oswald might have been young, but he was no Olympian. How many years since basic training? Any witnesses say he was exercising regularly? These facts matter.

And we are not even mentioning:

- Lack of nitrates on his cheek.

- That he was not seen or heard by others descending those creaky stairs at the same time. If he was "practically going downhill" then he would be dropping his full body weight repeatedly on those stairs every flight. You know that, I know that, anyone who has ever descended a flight of stairs rapidly knows that.

- The natural stress that would also come along with the act of firing a rifle at the president of the United States.

Not only was he fitter than an Olympian, he was lighter than a feather, invisible, the world's greatest actor, and also had nerves of steel. A real pro, so why wasn't he in position at the time the target was passing?

Denny Z-

People have walked off the lengths and LHO (not LOH) had time to get to where he met Marion Baker. It was tight, but doable. 

Getting upstairs in five minutes is no big deal. Time yourself going up five flights of stairs sometime. 

https://www.studyfinds.org/heart-health-good-climb-four-flights-stairs-90-seconds/

This study suggests between 45 seconds and 90 seconds for four flights, and the latter group is slow. 

LHO was only fleetingly looked at when he was by the coke machine. He may have feigned calm, and no one took his pulse. Remember, LHO was a CIA asset, who got himself into the Soviet Union by faking a suicide attempt. He once slugged a Marine sargeant. Probably participated in a fake assassination attempt on General Walker. Passed out leaflets supporting Castro on the street of NO. He was in his line of work. 

The LHO cheek nitrates test was administered too late, and LHO may have washed his face in the interval.  Speaking of perspiration, too much face sweat can wash off the nitrates. Also, if LHO fired a single shot, or there was a flow of air from the window outwards, the amount of nitrates would have been less. Pat Speer addressed this issue at length, even getting into Guinn's super-duper nitrate tests...but by then the casts had been washed....I would not consider the cheek tests indicative of anything. 

But hey, maybe LHO was not in the sniper's nest. Maybe it was Eladio Del Valle. 

My best guess is that what happened on Nov. 22 was a fake false-flag assassination attempt, piggy-backed on by people who shot for real. This fits all the evidence we have. 

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12 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

This was my view from behind the fence in 2010, arrow pointing to the x on the street.

jfk knoll fence view.JPG

Those two people to the right of the arrow---they look like they are three feet tall. But not shaped like midgets. 

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6 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

So a intend serious thread is denigrated to bashing short people.  I had a short friend once.

 

 

Great song. No, I am not denigrating short people. Those two people in the Denny Z photo look tiny. Like HO scale figures. Something about the photo....maybe a wide angle lens effect? 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/29/2021 at 8:34 PM, Benjamin Cole said:

A senior moment. OK, moments. OK, I sometimes forget what day of the week it is. BTW, what were we talking about? 

Been there, done...wait, what were we talking about?

Edited by Robert Burrows
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On 4/28/2021 at 2:11 PM, David Andrews said:

"How did they know to throw down three shells on the TSBD floor?" was a question recently asked on the Forum.

I would say because it was a prearranged plan for the assassins and those in the cover-up, based on calculation of how many shots the Patsy could actually fire in the time allowed.

They wanted it to look like:

1) One back wound to JFK, "showing" that the shots came from behind*

2) One back wound to Connally, to "show" the Patsy was murderous, anti-authoritarian

3) One clean head shot killing JFK, which could be "shown" to be a rear entrance

When they only had seconds left to achieve effect (3), the most important, then the shooters were instructed to all go for it at once, and let the story be "fixed in the editing room."  Which included narrowly accommodating James Tague with the SBT.

________

*Gerry Hemming characterized the shallow shoulder wound as "the meat shot," saying it was a short round meant to establish a rear shooter.  Even if it had been a normal round that disappeared inside the lower body, the effect was the same.  CE-399 was planted to tie the killing to the Mannlicher-Carcano, not to itself be tied to the shoulder wound or wed to a then non-existent SBT.

 

David, I don't really disagree with what your saying other than the free fire part at the end.  I personally believe a head shot from the rear was the intention but it missed.  Hit the front crossbar or the concrete by Tague.  Two more shooters from the front were waiting as insurance if needed but all shots were fired on command, no one shot until told.  jmo.  This is all speculation of course as we can never know for sure.  But based on the Mantik and Chesser conclusions of three head shots to me it seems they had to have come within a spit second of each other, not a fire when ready or at will general order. 

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On 4/29/2021 at 2:58 PM, Tony Krome said:

On Friday night at Bethesda, Kellerman told O'Neill that he heard JFK speak, so obviously, according to Kellerman, the GK larynx shot failed. 

As you know, I have the GK as the source of the gunpowder smell, the smoke, the "firecracker" noise witnesses first heard, but not the shooter. In other words, a distraction. Which brings up a further question regarding you're proposed shot;

What type of 22 would cause smoke that was visible to witnesses?

Logically, smoke and noise is bound to attract attention. I can't imagine, if I were an assassin, that I'd signal my position. Its the same with the Sniper's nest, what assassin would extend his barrel over a crowd? What we have is ... look over here, look over there ... meanwhile, in a completely different position, the actual shooter calmly escapes unnoticed. 

Kellerman said he heard JFK say I'm hit.  Yet in the Z film at the time of the head shot he's still looking straight ahead.  Why didn't he respond if he heard such?  To my knowledge no one else ever mentioned hearing this.  It would have to have been in response to the throat or back shot.  Before Connally was shot.  He doesn't mention it, Jackie, Nellie, Greer or bystanders (?).

The 22, as a first throat shot would produce little gun smoke or smell of it.  The crack of a 22 might sound like a black cat to some.  But two more shots from higher powered rifles along the fence is a possibility for smoke and smell.

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46 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Kellerman said he heard JFK say I'm hit.  Yet in the Z film at the time of the head shot he's still looking straight ahead.  Why didn't he respond if he heard such?  To my knowledge no one else ever mentioned hearing this.  It would have to have been in response to the throat or back shot.  Before Connally was shot.  He doesn't mention it, Jackie, Nellie, Greer or bystanders (?).

The 22, as a first throat shot would produce little gun smoke or smell of it.  The crack of a 22 might sound like a black cat to some.  But two more shots from higher powered rifles along the fence is a possibility for smoke and smell.

Regarding the Z-Film;

Hickey: "He was slumped forward and to his left, and was straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and looked."

Kinney: "and it appeared that he had been shot because he slumped to the left. Immediately he sat up again."

Do you see that on the Z-Film? I don't. I prefer witnesses over a late to the party film.

Regarding the GK;

Are you proposing 2 or 3 shooters on the GK? One with a 22, possibly 1 or 2 with a high powered rifle? As Bowers said, there's only one way out of there by car, and that's straight back up the Elm extension.

Mr. BOWERS - They came into the vicinity of the tower, which was at the extension of Elm Street, which runs in front of the School Depository, 'and which there is no way out. It is not a through street to anywhere.

 

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