Stemmons access from Main

[Sean Coleman]

Not too sure the motorcade had to go down Elm to access Stemmons......

Apologies if this is old news!

pic courtesy of street view

absolute nonsense courtesy Mc Adams

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Sean Coleman

[Sean Coleman]

Oops false alarm,my mistake, Stemmons access would involve the illegal, undignified crossing of the pictured divider. 
 

 

[Joe Bauer]

From this picture it is obvious that the concrete divider ends just after passing under the overpass making a Main Street access to the Stemmons Freeway a piece of cake.

So, did the concrete divider end like this in November of 1963?

Or was the concrete divider broken up later?

You are joking about the crossing problem SC - right?

If this photo is real for the 1963 time frame ( and not a physically reconfigured or photo shopped creation later ) it destroys that flimsy excuse for taking this two 90% turn slowing, perfect turkey shoot sniper location dog leg through the sparse crowd Dealey Plaza.

Reminds me of the David Ferry/Lee Oswald Civil Air Patrol cookout photo destroying Gerald Posner's "Ferry and Oswald never met" credibility. 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Joe Bauer

[Sean Coleman]

On 5/1/2021 at 4:16 PM, Joe Bauer said:

From this picture it is obvious that the concrete divider ends just after passing under the overpass making a Main Street access to the Stemmons Freeway a piece of cake.

So, did the concrete divider end like this in November of 1963?

Or was the concrete divider broken up later?

You are joking about the crossing problem SC - right?

If this photo is real for the 1963 time frame ( and not a physically reconfigured or photo shopped creation later ) it destroys that flimsy excuse for taking this two 90% turn slowing, perfect turkey shoot sniper location dog leg through the sparse crowd Dealey Plaza.

Reminds me of the David Ferry/Lee Oswald Civil Air Patrol cookout photo destroying Gerald Posner's "Ferry and Oswald never met" credibility. 

 

 

Joe, looks like the divider was always there.  
It seems to extend beyond the access to the freeway-although it’s hardly an obstacle.

That’s why I had to back down on my groundbreaking historic discovery!

McAdams (rip) beats me this time.....but I’ll be back

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Sean Coleman
Pics

[Robin Unger]

Secret Service Dealey Plaza Photo 10

CD 765

[Joe Bauer]

SC and RU, thanks for photo's.

Okay, yes, the curb obstacle was real. 

 

[Ron Bulman]

This is not the first time access to Stemmons freeway from Main has been discussed or questioned.  I once tried to explain this to a poster on I think jfkfacts.org.  Pictures are a great help, I didn't have any.  The poster was adamant that there was access from Main.  I said I've been through underpass on Elm many times going both onto Stemmons and merging  onto Main and onto the Industrial intersection, and that the curbs on Main and Elm extended past the entrance to Stemmons.  He was still adamant, there had to be a way.  I guess if you've never been there, driven through it, it might seem so just looking at a map, maybe even google maps.

Not Ripley's but believe it or not another poster proposed they could have built a wooden ramp over the curbs from Main to the Stemmons entrance to avoid the Houston - Elm dogleg and the TSBD.

I thought why didn't they just follow normal Secret Service guidelines and protocol.  Don't slow down even more when your already way below 20 mph when you hear a shot.  SS,DPD, Sheriff's Deputies, offered Military assistance all along the route scanning windows.  Snipers on roof tops, choppers in the air.  Protect the President.  Don't strip security and slow down. 

[Lawrence Schnapf]

The divider was always there to prevent traffic accidents from drivers trying to access the freeway exit from Main Street. t was technically illegal to cross the divider which would create bad optics for the president. Once the Trade Mart was selected at the site of the luncheon, t is quite easy to see the route planning as simply following the traffic rules.

Moreover, while the divider was low but could still have resulted in a jolt to occupants if crossed at 10 MPH or so. Would have to crawl to near stop to get over it without jostiling occupants. can you imagine the optics of a dozen or so cars ignoring the traffic rules. 

Accordingly I dont think there was anything sinister with including Elm Street in the motorcade route.  The plotters learned of the route and adjusted accordingly. they could have simply relocated shooters if the motorcade had gone down Main and had to slow to a crawl to transverse the divider.

[Ron Bulman]

3 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

The divider was always there to prevent traffic accidents from drivers trying to access the freeway exit from Main Street. t was technically illegal to cross the divider which would create bad optics for the president. Once the Trade Mart was selected at the site of the luncheon, t is quite easy to see the route planning as simply following the traffic rules.

Moreover, while the divider was low but could still have resulted in a jolt to occupants if crossed at 10 MPH or so. Would have to crawl to near stop to get over it without jostiling occupants. can you imagine the optics of a dozen or so cars ignoring the traffic rules. 

Accordingly I dont think there was anything sinister with including Elm Street in the motorcade route.  The plotters learned of the route and adjusted accordingly. they could have simply relocated shooters if the motorcade had gone down Main and had to slow to a crawl to transverse the divider.

Yes there was something sinister with including Elm Street in the motorcade route.  It routed him past the TSBD, Dal-Tex Building and Grassy Knoll. 

[Robin Unger]

4 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

The divider was always there to prevent traffic accidents from drivers trying to access the freeway exit from Main Street. t was technically illegal to cross the divider which would create bad optics for the president. Once the Trade Mart was selected at the site of the luncheon, t is quite easy to see the route planning as simply following the traffic rules.

Moreover, while the divider was low but could still have resulted in a jolt to occupants if crossed at 10 MPH or so. Would have to crawl to near stop to get over it without jostiling occupants. can you imagine the optics of a dozen or so cars ignoring the traffic rules. 

Accordingly I dont think there was anything sinister with including Elm Street in the motorcade route.  The plotters learned of the route and adjusted accordingly. they could have simply relocated shooters if the motorcade had gone down Main and had to slow to a crawl to transverse the divider.

Title: Underpass from Industrial Boulevard, Dallas, Texas

Creator: Squire Haskins Photography, Inc. (Photographer)

Description: Underpass from Industrial Blvd., Dallas.

Date Created: 1952-05-29

 

[Joseph McBride]

The wooden ramp is often discussed as a lost option and would

have worked well and have been easy to construct, barely a bump

as they drove over it. But of course the Secret Service, O'Donnell,

Locke, et al wanted to drive JFK down Elm Street to kill him.

[Joseph McBride]

That image of Dallas was taken on JFK's 35th birthday, the

day he became eligible to be president.

[George Govus]

Kennedy's luncheon speech should not have been planned for the Trade Mart, a rotten venue in terms of security. That also meant the parade had to take Elm to get to Stemmons Freeway, but it didn't have to make that 110-degree turn from Houston to Elm. Did it? They could have taken a ninety-degree turn off Main a block or so earlier, and picked up Elm sooner, again with a normal turn. That would have been less violation of Secret Service procedure. And without that violative turn from Houston to Elm, I guess the limo could have been doing twenty MPH or so, down Elm through Dealy Plaza. Would that have made a difference?

[Joe Bauer]

On 5/4/2021 at 10:12 PM, Robin Unger said:

Title: Underpass from Industrial Boulevard, Dallas, Texas

Creator: Squire Haskins Photography, Inc. (Photographer)

Description: Underpass from Industrial Blvd., Dallas.

Date Created: 1952-05-29

 

Am I missing something here in this aerial shot of Main Street/Elm Street merging onto Stemmons? 

Or is that not the Stemmons Freeway at all?

If it was, it looks as if JFK's motorcade had just kept going straight on Main and through the middle of Dealey Plaza ( instead of dog legging to the right and through the Western side of Dealey ) about 150 yards after going under the overpass Main Street and Elm Street both merge onto the same highway - correct?

And wouldn't this one highway take them to the Trade Mart? 

Or, was this aerial view photo taken years before 1963?

When the Trade Mart wasn't even built yet? Or a new freeway built to get to it?

I'm confused. In this photo above it sure looks to me like Elm Street took you to the same highway Main Street did.

If so, there was no need for the snipers lair dog leg turn into Dealey. Yes?

Also, if I am an experienced presidential motorcade security planner and doing a pre-planning drive through of the route to see potential risk problems, I would surely notice the against protocol two 90 degree turns onto Houston and Elm. How this would require slowing of speed combined with the wide open exposure to the upper floors of the Texas School Book Depository building ( which just happened to be owned by super wealthy oil man, right wing fanatic and rabid JFK hater D.H. Byrd ) and most importantly ...

the incredibly obvious pergola wall, heavy low tree canopy and long, dark shadow picket fence that ran for hundreds of yards right above JFK's limo and would be the perfect camouflage hiding place for a sniper. Complete with a wide open, no crowd escape area of the parking lot and rail yards.

I just know I would have spotted this risk potential.

And I would have assigned two or three or more officers directly behind the top part of the grassy knoll as JFK passed by underneath.

Ah, but who am I to think that little old Jr. High school boy me could ever come up with anything close to the security experience and brain work of those in charge of JFK's motorcade route security?

Edited May 8, 2021 by Joe Bauer

[Sean Coleman]

Yes,it looks like Stemmons hasn’t been built in Robin’s pic.

You’re right Joe, bent security approved the route- there’s too much foliage, shadows and escape routes galore around the kill zone. I expect not many onlookers were anticipated too as it was the end of the crowd pleasing drive-by before they hit the freeway.

Why not use Elm in its totality or cut across from Main higher up.