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Gordon Novel


Greg Wagner
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Thank you Jack! That is the best photo comparison I have seen on identifying the Umbrella Man.

Zach

Placing Gordon Novel in Dallas in 1963 via an official document hasn't entered the equation yet, but apparently he was associated

with Dallas circa 1975

see

Memorandum Gordon Novel

http://www.maryferre....do?docId=49060

Gordon Novel (104-10312-10026)

Dallas, Texas (undated)

http://www.maryferre....do?docId=48988

The latter is basically a shell of a document

Deposition of Gordon Novel

http://www.maryferre....do?docId=10082

You might want to get a cup of coffee, I believe the whole depo is some, almost 400 pages

And it is a very interesting read, at the last page the depo still appears to be ongoing, leading me to think that

it probably has a companion document......

If you are one of those who believes there are some shenanigans regarding

Witt and Novel, you probably will have reason to feel your suspicions

have some validity, from the sampling of the depo I have read

See Novel's account of his "honeymoon"...lol

http://www.maryferre...2&relPageId=384

Thanks Robert, that is interesting stuff. I tend to believe Roy Hargraves was the Umbrella Man and Gordon Novel is more disinfo.

Zach

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  • 9 months later...
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Is this Novel in the photo below with the Umbrella Man?

Thanks,

Zach

post-6350-002369600 1296072478_thumb.jpg

So, was Umbrella Man Gordon Novel, Roy Hargraves, or Steven Witt? It is interesting to note that Governor James Rhodes (Republican) of Ohio refused to extradite Novel to Louisiana for the Garrison investigation and that he also commuted mafia boss Thomas Licavoli's sentence from Murder One to Murder Two (thereby making him eligible for parole for the murder of bootlegger Jackie Kennedy from Toledo) in 1969, and in 1971 Licavoli was granted parole due to poor health.

--Tommy

Edited by Thomas Graves
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  • 2 weeks later...

THat deposition is part of five volumes that extends to 1500 pages.

It was done in a lawsuit that GOrdon did not want to file but which was forced on him by James Angleton in an attempt to discredit Jim Garrison since the DA came off so well in his Playboy interview. It was not successful. Playboy sent me the whole set and Lisa Pease did a three part article on it for Probe. Very interesting stuff about Gordon, Banister, the CIA, David Phillips, and Allen Dulles.

Any official CIA document on Gordon is going to be wrong and self serving. As far as I can see Novel was a contract agent both during the Bay of Pigs when he was working with Banister, and during the days he infiltrated Garrison's office when he was working for Allen Dulles, RIchard Helms and Walter Sheridan.

THere is no doubt he knows a lot. But you will never get anything out of him today.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXooooOOOOooooXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

link http://pesn.com/2011/11/20/9601961_Pontus_Briefing_Eyes_Only_--_UFO_Documentary_Coming/

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  • 10 months later...

As Gordon Novel died last night it might be worth returning to this thread.

In an interview in 2006 Novel rejected the claims that he was a CIA agent: "I’m not a CIA agent. I’m affiliated, I work with, and we have a mutual admiration society based upon my relationship with the individuals I work with.... The CIA has multiple sides but it’s been my experience over the years that they’re basically the only good guys in the entire United States government. They’re really patriots. Most of ‘em are patriots and I’ve never known... I personally have never known them to do anything criminal, ever. And they didn’t kill John Kennedy and they didn’t kill a lot of people that they’ve been accused of causing the death of but I don’t know that to be true. So I can tell you that my experience with ‘em has been like dealing with Eagle Scouts."

http://projectcamelot.org/lang/en/gordon_novel_interview_transcript_en.html

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Guest Robert Morrow

As Gordon Novel died last night it might be worth returning to this thread.

In an interview in 2006 Novel rejected the claims that he was a CIA agent: "I’m not a CIA agent. I’m affiliated, I work with, and we have a mutual admiration society based upon my relationship with the individuals I work with.... The CIA has multiple sides but it’s been my experience over the years that they’re basically the only good guys in the entire United States government. They’re really patriots. Most of ‘em are patriots and I’ve never known... I personally have never known them to do anything criminal, ever. And they didn’t kill John Kennedy and they didn’t kill a lot of people that they’ve been accused of causing the death of but I don’t know that to be true. So I can tell you that my experience with ‘em has been like dealing with Eagle Scouts."

http://projectcamelo...nscript_en.html

James Angleton was a Boy Scout and he may very well have made Eagle Scout. And I think James Angleton knew the nature and character of many of the people he worked with at the high levels of intelligence. http://www.ctka.net/pr700-ang.html

“Fundamentally, the founding fathers of U.S. intelligence were liars. The better you lied and the more you betrayed, the more likely you would be promoted. These people attracted and promoted each other. Outside of their duplicity, the o­nly thing they had in common was a desire for absolute power. I did things that, in looking back o­n my life, I regret. But I was part of it and I loved being in it. . . Allen Dulles, Richard Helms, Carmel Offie, and Frank Wisner were the grand masters. If you were in a room with them you were in a room full of people that you had to believe would deservedly end up in hell.” Angleton slowly sipped his tea and then said, “I guess I will see them there, soon.”

----JAMES ANGLETON, C.I.A. Counter Intelligence-Chief, 1985

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Gordon Novel Has Passed Away

HERE IS THE STATEMENT FROM HIS SON:

Dear All,

My Dad passed away last night in his sleep at a rest home in Los Angeles around 3:00am.

He was 74 years young...

I will be making funeral arrangements with my older sister Spirit.

We will likely hold the funeral and have him cremated in Los Angeles, then take his remains to be buried next to his Mother in Florida.

I will let you all know when we have finalized his funeral plans and please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

Attached is are couple of photos of Dad under a purple tree here in Thailand on the beach of Koh Chang (Elephant Island) and also playing with a Dog.

This day in Thailand was the happiest day I ever seen my Dad in my life and he told me many times later it was one of the happiest days of his life.

Dad would not have wanted to been lying in the hospital much longer than what he was, so his time has come to pass.

Thank you all for being his close friends.

Please forward this email to anyone that I missed and let them know I apologize for not ccing them.

Sincerely,

Sur Novel

NO PHOTOS WERE ATTACHED; SORRY BOUT THAT..B

Edited by Bernice Moore
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Gordon was not the Umbrella Man. Witt was the Umbrella Man.

Gordon was not in Dealey Plaza that day. He was in NYC. ANd he would reel off several names to back that up.

Gordon was a part of the CIA effort for the Bay of Pigs, beyond a shadow of a doubt. And in that he was associated with Banister, Ferrie, and Arcacha Smith. He was an electonics wizard and this is what first brought him to the attention of the CIA. During the Bay of Pigs, he was involved with the famous Houma raid on the Schlumberger bunker. This event, in and of itself, is a fascinating episode for two reasons: 1.) Who was involved in it and 2.) What the arms had been used for and where they were headed. For it shows a symbiotic relationship between the OAS and the CIA.

Gordon was not an official agent or employee of the CIA. He was a contract agent for them. So its stupid to do what McAdams does and Reitzes does--to refer to the CIA saying that they have no records of him being an employee. Of course not. And this plays right into their hands. This is why the CIA hires contract agents, or in modern parlance, independent contractors. For the specific issue of deniability.

After the Bay of Pigs, Gordon then was part of an aborted effort to construct a New Orleans telethon to benefit the local branch of the CRC and to blast Castro with all kinds of atrocity stories. In this, Gordon met with Ed Butler, Arcacha Smith, Banister and a man who strongly resembles the profile of David Phillips.

As I said, this did not come off for whatever reason. But Gordon really sprung into prominence during the Garrison investigation. For now, working for the CIA, his mission was to penetrate the DA's office, wire it for sound, steal certain exhibits, and garner inside information. In other words, to serve as a classic counter intelligence agent. It is here that Gordon now became closely bonded with Clay Shaw and then Walter Sheridan.

But the problem was that once Garrison got onto Sheridan, he then began to see who Novel really was also. And this is when Novel first sold his interest in a speedway north of New Orleans, and then his bar the Jamaican VIllage. When Garrison now charged him to appear in court, he somehow contracted for the services of not one, but two lawyers: Steve Plotkin and Eddie Sapir. (Plotkin was CIA all the way.) He then hightailed first to VIrginia to do a phony polygraph for Sheridan denouncing Garrison as a dunce and a fraud. And then to Columbus.

And this is where he now became useful as part of a Mockingbird program to denounce Garrison to the many cooperating CIA and FBI assets involved in the campaign of calumny to ruin the Garrison investigation and destroy the DA's reputation. This was a key part of the CIA campaign against JG. For it did two things: 1.) It paved the way for the outrageous and sensational (and phony) charges in the upcoming Sheridan special, and 2.) THe nutty stories Novel provided about JG now provided an excuse for governors not to cooperate with Garrison in his requests for extradition of certain suspects and witnesses. Gordon was safehoused in Columbus and placed under guard. He now began to work with what he once enumerated as 17 CIA and FBI associated reporters--James Phelan was one--in the incessant campaign to denounce the DA and his Kennedy inquiry.

Novel was very well compensated for this effort, which continued all the way up to and beyond the Shaw trial. When it was all over he had a beautiful home and a brand new luxury car because of it.

And he stayed like this up until the HSCA, when it all fell apart for him

Surely you cannot be serous. The TUM was Witt. That is truly shocking.

Dawn

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At different times, Novel, Ehlinger, Mancuso, Martens and Blackmon all placed it in September. Novel specifically told me this. Martens placed it after his Aug 31 arrest and close to the beginning of the semester; in any case, it had to be after Martens joined the FRD, which was just after the BoP.

Some of the arms were stored at Banister's office for a short time, and Vernon Gerdes saw the Schlumberger boxes there in late September 1961. Carlos Quiroga came into the operation only after September 11, and a few days later he drove the arms to Miami with a U-Haul.

Some of the Schlumberger aramaments are said to have been stored in Ferrie's home, but that home was searched several times by police, sheriff's office and others around the time of Ferrie's August 22 morals arrest, and no such arms were found, suggesting that the arms came to the home after those searches. John Harris told the FBI that Ferrie had a cache of arms, but this was around Sept-Oct 1961.

It seems that most of the evidence of the timing of the Houma affair points to mid-September 1961. I was wondering what convinces you that it was earlier.

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Gordon was not the Umbrella Man. Witt was the Umbrella Man.

Gordon was not in Dealey Plaza that day. He was in NYC. ANd he would reel off several names to back that up.

Gordon was a part of the CIA effort for the Bay of Pigs, beyond a shadow of a doubt. And in that he was associated with Banister, Ferrie, and Arcacha Smith. He was an electonics wizard and this is what first brought him to the attention of the CIA. During the Bay of Pigs, he was involved with the famous Houma raid on the Schlumberger bunker. This event, in and of itself, is a fascinating episode for two reasons: 1.) Who was involved in it and 2.) What the arms had been used for and where they were headed. For it shows a symbiotic relationship between the OAS and the CIA.

Gordon was not an official agent or employee of the CIA. He was a contract agent for them. So its stupid to do what McAdams does and Reitzes does--to refer to the CIA saying that they have no records of him being an employee. Of course not. And this plays right into their hands. This is why the CIA hires contract agents, or in modern parlance, independent contractors. For the specific issue of deniability.

After the Bay of Pigs, Gordon then was part of an aborted effort to construct a New Orleans telethon to benefit the local branch of the CRC and to blast Castro with all kinds of atrocity stories. In this, Gordon met with Ed Butler, Arcacha Smith, Banister and a man who strongly resembles the profile of David Phillips.

As I said, this did not come off for whatever reason. But Gordon really sprung into prominence during the Garrison investigation. For now, working for the CIA, his mission was to penetrate the DA's office, wire it for sound, steal certain exhibits, and garner inside information. In other words, to serve as a classic counter intelligence agent. It is here that Gordon now became closely bonded with Clay Shaw and then Walter Sheridan.

But the problem was that once Garrison got onto Sheridan, he then began to see who Novel really was also. And this is when Novel first sold his interest in a speedway north of New Orleans, and then his bar the Jamaican VIllage. When Garrison now charged him to appear in court, he somehow contracted for the services of not one, but two lawyers: Steve Plotkin and Eddie Sapir. (Plotkin was CIA all the way.) He then hightailed first to VIrginia to do a phony polygraph for Sheridan denouncing Garrison as a dunce and a fraud. And then to Columbus.

And this is where he now became useful as part of a Mockingbird program to denounce Garrison to the many cooperating CIA and FBI assets involved in the campaign of calumny to ruin the Garrison investigation and destroy the DA's reputation. This was a key part of the CIA campaign against JG. For it did two things: 1.) It paved the way for the outrageous and sensational (and phony) charges in the upcoming Sheridan special, and 2.) THe nutty stories Novel provided about JG now provided an excuse for governors not to cooperate with Garrison in his requests for extradition of certain suspects and witnesses. Gordon was safehoused in Columbus and placed under guard. He now began to work with what he once enumerated as 17 CIA and FBI associated reporters--James Phelan was one--in the incessant campaign to denounce the DA and his Kennedy inquiry.

Novel was very well compensated for this effort, which continued all the way up to and beyond the Shaw trial. When it was all over he had a beautiful home and a brand new luxury car because of it.

And he stayed like this up until the HSCA, when it all fell apart for him

As I said elsewhere:

There you go again, hanging your hat on specious supposition when responsible analysis would have sufficed. I do not know who TUM was and neither do you.

I do not know if he was Novel or not. I can make no reliable determination based on the less than clear photographic evidence. As for Witt...I really doubt his

story. It simply makes no sense: He brought an umbrella with him to send Kennedy a message related to events more than 20 years old involving Chamberlain?

Pure, unadulterated BS.

I do agree that Novel was involved in the Bay of Pigs and certainly involved in attempting to derail Garrison's investigation.

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In his deposition, Gordon says the arms were brought to Banister's for the Bay of Pigs. (Probe Vol. 4 No. 6, p. 34) You have to watch the time when you interview Gordon. See,as I hinted at above, something happened to Gordon during the HSCA. It completely broke up his life and altered his public views on this case. I may write about it here or maybe as an obituary in Probe. I did not include it in my book for space reasons, and also since I did not think Gordon would like me to go into these things while he was alive.

I have to giggle a bit at Burnham saying I am relying on "Specious supposiiton" in identifying Witt as TUM. Is anyone questioning the photographs in Dealey Plaza being faked? Because this is was changed my mind on this, plus the fact that Gordon volunteered to give me the names and numbers of six people who he was with in New York at the time of JFK's murder.

See, I argue this from experience, I used to believe this also. Because I only relied on Jack's and Cutler's profile comparison. But if you see the photo of Witt sitting on the curb in more of a 3/4 view, or even more, its clearly not Gordon.

As per Witt's story, that is a different matter. In fact, I spent some time dealing with that. It is a thin and strained story as to why he was there and why he lied about the umbrella at the HSCA--its not the same one. But that is a different question altogether than whether or not it was him. It was him.

PS: Don't argue about "strained supposition" with me about Gordon. I will match my knowledge of him and his career with anyone alive. I used to have a full file on Gordon that was about 8 inches thick with about 14 different sub folders in it. I could write a monograph about him very easily in which half he stuff in it almost no one here had known about. FOr instance, he was one of JG's suspects who fled to NASA for a bit. How did he get in? The guy tried to blow up a theater as a young man!!

Re-read what I wrote and try to grasp it. I said that I do not know who was TUM. I said that I do not know if it was or was not Gordon Novel. I said neither do you. If you are certain that Witt was TUM then show us compelling evidence in support of your position. More than just his word. You might be convinced that Novel was not TUM. Fine with me. I simply can't tell. But, for you to categorically claim that TUM is definitely

Witt makes enquiring minds want to know.

After all: Extraordinary claims...

BTW: I don't think Novel was TUM... for other reasons.

Edited by Greg Burnham
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I read what you said the first time. I actually read quite well Greg. Both in speed and comprehension.

You say you do not know who it is. Fine.

I say I do know who it is.

And its not Gordon.

I apologize for the stupid tone in my last post.

A question:

Is it more important to you to convince us that Novel was not TUM... or is it more important to you that we are convinced that TUM was Witt?

Or, better yet: Does it NEED to be Witt in order to support your claim that it is definitely NOT Novel?

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In his deposition, Gordon says the arms were brought to Banister's for the Bay of Pigs. (Probe Vol. 4 No. 6, p. 34) You have to watch the time when you interview Gordon.

Although the timing of Houma is not critical, the bulk of the evidence points to the September date, the primary difference being whether it was before or after the BoP.

Novel said different things at different times. In their first NODA interview, he and Ehlinger placed it in September; When he contacted the FBI on 2/21/67, he again said September; By his 1969 Playboy depo, he said somewhere around February, but added that his activities extended to late 1961 (p81) and that he didn't really recall exact dates (p62). (He also goofed on other dates in that depo: He said he had meetings in Banister's office in the Balter Building (Room 434) in 1961, but Banister had vacated the Balter for his new office in the Newman Building on Lafayette Street back in June 1960, presumably before he met Novel.) Some 40+ years after the event, I had him relate the Houma affair to other events in his life and he settled on September 1961.

In contrast, as I noted before, Ehlinger, Mancuso, Martens and Blackmon all dated it in September. Others who handled or saw the arms during their brief time at Banister's office (Quiroga and Gerdes) said September or October. Indeed, Martens cannot have been involved in the operation prior to the BoP as he wasn't yet associated with the group; and Quiroga didn't become associated with the group until September. Quiroga, incidentally, said that the arms went to the MDC in Miami several months after the BoP. On balance, the bulk of the evidence points to September, and Novel's depo testimony being wrong. And there are other little hints as well.

BTW, I agree, from speaking with him, that Novel was not the umbrella man.

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To Greg:

I do not see how anyone can look at the 3/4 photo of TUM and say that is Novel.

As per it being Witt, well I would certainly think that the body of evidence indicates that is the case.

To Stephen:

What on earth would the arms be for at that time? Mongoose had not started up yet.

The reason for my question, JIm, is to suggest that it may be neither man, Novel nor Witt. Indeed, TUM need not be Witt in order to

prove Novel is not TUM.

I know your second comment was for Stephen, but... Prior to Mongoose there were plenty of anti-Castro Cuban activities that were being

regularly conducted with support from CIA--most often without official sanction from the USGOV. Although Mongoose may have "legitimized"

the effort, accelerated its pace, and placed its coordination under Lansdale, it doesn't mean Mongoose was the start of such activities.

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To Stephen:

What on earth would the arms be for at that time? Mongoose had not started up yet.

I'm trying to establish the date from the available evidence, rather than trying to put it into chronological context. But looking at context, Greg is right. There were official and unofficial actions between the BoP and Mongoose. Recall what Arcacha wrote to Eastern Air Lines in July: After the Bay of Pigs, the anti-Castro movement (and specifically Arcacha's FRD) was demoralized and disorganized, and along came Ferrie to prod it.

As for the destination of the arms, Quiroga, in his HSCA depo, said that he drove them to the MDC in Miami.

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