Critique of Jim DiEugenio's Destiny Betrayed

[Denny Zartman]

12 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

He didn't post any links just listed sources.

Way to miss the point and dodge the question at the same time.

The question was "Have you read the sources James posted?" The truth is that I knew the answer before I asked the question. Obviously you hadn't read the sources. I'd ask why you didn't read the sources, but I already know the answer to that as well. Reading the sources would mean having to admit you're wrong.

Quote

“The story could possibly have been even more explosive than Fruge thought. For on November 28, 1963, a Margaret Kay Kauffmann of Martinsburg, Pennsylvania, told the FBI that her mother had recovered a piece of paper in the leaves beneath her porch. It was a trailer advertisement. In handwriting scrawled across the top left was the name of a club called the Silver Slipper or Silver Bell. In the top middle of the page was the name Lee Oswald. On the top right was the name Rubinstein. In the middle was the name Jack Ruby and at the bottom was the name Dallas, Texas. A Cuban doctor named Julio Fernandez often burned trash in their backyard, under her balcony. The paper with the names on it was found about 20 feet from his last burn. Fernandez’s brother had been the captain of police under Fulgencio Batista.”

DiEugenio, James. Destiny Betrayed: JFK, Cuba, and the Garrison Case (pp. 79-80). Skyhorse. Kindle Edition.

According to the material quoted by the person who started this thread, James makes it clear he's reporting the allegation Kauffman told the FBI. If the allegation was made, as even you admit it was, then there is no inaccuracy in the portion of "Destiny Betrayed" quoted above. Therefore, the basic premise of this thread is failed gotcha nonsense.

Ms. Hoover said saw the flyer; she said she showed it to her daughter; her daughter confirmed it. That's enough for a reporter to report it.

19 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

As the FBI correctly surmised, this was yet another mentally stressed individual making wild claims. In fact, they even considered prosecution for providing false evidence

Yes, it is believable that a U.S. District Attorney would decline prosecution of criminals who knowingly and willfully made materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statements or representations "due to the emotional instability of the persons involved." You'd never see federal prosecution of emotionally unstable criminals, would you? Of course not. It's just too much of a hassle. All that crying and wailing, and then you have to get them tissues. Only emotionally stable, composed, and calm criminals get prosecuted. That's the way the justice system rolls.

Give us a break.

Hoover didn't go to the feds, her brother did. You think they were going to charge Hoover and her daughter for knowingly making false statements just because Hoover couldn't find the flyer? That's not how it works. Hoover says she saw the flyer and the writing and remembered details. Hoover says she showed to to Kauffman and that Kauffman would also remember the details, Kauffman says she saw the flyer and the writing, and she did remember the details. Because the flyer could not be later found does not prove that it never existed or that Hoover and Kauffman did not ever see it. A prosecutor would have to actually prove that Hoover and Kauffman knew that the flyer didn't exist or that it didn't have the writing on it.

Where is that proof?

What is that proof?

How you YOU know for CERTAIN that Hoover and Kauffman were knowingly making false statements? Because the flyer couldn't be produced? Because the FBI wrote a memo considering and then declining prosecution solely because the criminals were too emotional? And you imply that James's evidence is thin?

[Denny Zartman]

I also think the misogyny in 2021 is pretty disheartening too, as most here don't even blink an eye at the "hysterical female" stereotype without a second thought.

Hoover tells her brother about the flyer.

Hoover's brother goes to the feds.

The FBI questions Hoover and Kauffman. They both describe the flyer, Hoover having been in the trailer business, and Kauffman even recalling a club name similar to a club Ruby ran.

Kauffman's husband goes to the FBI and says, don't believe them, they're mentally unstable over-emotional about divorce and husbands.

Kauffman and her husband have a long talk.

Kauffman then tells the FBI that she's confused, unstable, can't remember anything

[W. Tracy Parnell]

30 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

there is no inaccuracy in the portion of "Destiny Betrayed" quoted above.

That is true to a point. But DiEugenio uses this unproven allegation to bolster his discussion of another unproven allegation-that of Rose Cheramie. That is the point Steve is making-that DiEugenio’s arguments in many cases rely on these types of unsubstantiated witness claims.

[Steve Roe]

14 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

If you have more, keep them coming Steve.

Yes, there is more Tracy.

I'll try to address some of the topic related comments here later.

Super busy on other projects today. 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

5 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

Yes, there is more Tracy.

I'll try to address some of the topic related comments here later.

Super busy on other projects today. 

Great Steve. Fred's blog has probably dozens of instances of questionable reporting by DiEugenio as you know.

[Dennis Berube]

On 5/12/2021 at 7:51 PM, W. Tracy Parnell said:

He didn't post any links just listed sources.

Good lord how lazy can you get? To constantly challenge information you do not have full knowledge of is a bad look. I find it difficult to believe there are honest people still pushing this. Seriously, take a step back and think how many facts have to be covered up or manipulated to come to this LN conclusion, its stunning and took that well funded, half ghost written Bugliosi disgrace over 2000 pages to cover up only a small fraction of what is known. It seems certain people cannot get themselves to think critically and require psychological/cultural approval from “mainstream” sources in order to accept a certain view. They constantly discount/question almost any piece of data that wasnt presented through a compromised mainstream channel. They imagine a world where somehow the government and their largest corporations are inherently telling the truth on big issues. Trusting the FBI? Are you kidding? They knew about Ferrie and let him go AND publicly reprimanded a DA. Case closed.  
Considering our current situation, the JFK case proved to be a crossroads in history that was enabled by the failure of the public/government to hold the perpetrators accountable, ever. The conclusion is obvious, the “government” is compromised at the highest levels and has been ever since, at least.  

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, Dennis Berube said:

Good lord how lazy can you get? To constantly challenge information you do not have full knowledge of is a bad look. I find it difficult to believe there are honest people still pushing this. Seriously, take a step back and think how many facts have to be covered up or manipulated to come to this LN conclusion, its stunning and took that well funded, half ghost written Bugliosi disgrace over 2000 pages to cover up only a small fraction of what is known. It seems certain people cannot get themselves to think critically and require psychological/cultural approval from “mainstream” sources in order to accept a certain view. They constantly discount/question almost any piece of data that wasnt presented through a compromised mainstream channel. They imagine a world where somehow the government and their largest corporations are inherently telling the truth on big issues. Trusting the FBI? Are you kidding? They knew about Ferrie and let him go AND publicly reprimanded a DA. Case closed.  
Considering our current situation, the JFK case proved to be a crossroads in history that was enabled by the failure of the public/government to hold the perpetrators accountable, ever. The conclusion is obvious, the “government” is compromised at the highest levels and has been ever since, at least.  

Agree.

American newspapers, even the largest circulation ones, have been used as false info vehicles forever. Remember Judith Miller of the New York Times?

T.V. and newspaper contributor Robert Novak was a classic dis-info agent.

Bugliosi's JFK book is for non-thinkers.

1,000's of selectively chosen document numbers and statements simply copied and pasted word for word and put into a cynically charged titled binder.

The only creative content by Bugliosi was his 100 different ways of calling JFK conspiracy believers loons, nuts and crackpots.

What normal person could read even 20 of the 2,000 pages of Bugliosi's epic one sided minutiae filled masterpiece without going into a mind numbing, pre-hypnotic trance or simply falling asleep?

Ah, but a great and easy ( let underlings do all the file finding word ) gimmick on the always big money hunting VB's part to get a million dollar book advance windfall imo.

Also, regards the "Silver Slipper / Jack Ruby back of an ad flyer" note story:

When did Margaret Hoover's brother Robert Steele report this to the FBI? Just a few days after 11,22,1963? 

How could anyone have known anything about the Silver Slipper and Jack Ruby and thought this important enough to report to the authorities so soon after 11,22,1963 when so little had been reported about it nationally at that time?

Heck, 99.999 % of Americans didn't know anything except the most broad and general TV and newspaper news coverage of the event and the main characters involved until months and even years later.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Joe Bauer

[Steve Roe]

On 5/12/2021 at 6:43 PM, Denny Zartman said:

He doesn't even have one. Have you read the citations James posted?

1. CE 3067 is essentially the same as the link FBI Kern report that I linked about the Margaret Hoover incident. Not sure why DiEugenio wanted me to review the same stuff, but yes I did reread it. 

2. Probe Volume 6 No 5, p. 4  (July-August 1999 issue) is DiEugenio's Probe article "Rose Cheramie: How she predicted the JFK Assassination". However, it was Lisa Pease's article "The Silver Slipper?" that deals with the Margaret Hoover allegations, the specific topic I am addressing here. Yes I have a copy of that and read it. Pease repeats the background story of Margaret Hoover, as per CE 3067 and tries to link Sergio Arcacha Smith and Emilio Santana in the company of Rose Cheramie at the "Silver Slipper" bar in Eunice, LA. Then Pease tries to link Dr. Julio Cesar Fernandez with the CIA, by subsidizing propaganda directed at Castro, while he was in Cuba. Of course, Pease offers ZERO evidence of this. Probe Volume 6 No 5, p. 4. Then Pease ignites conspiratorial suspicions by stating Dr. Fernandez may have had pre-knowledge of the assassination. This article is nothing more that a conspiracy opinion piece. 

3. Probe Vol. 2 No. 6 pp. 13-14  (I believe that was a typo, should be Vol. 2 No. 5 September 22, 1995)  This is Lisa Pease's article on "Gun Runner Ruby and the CIA, Part Two". Pease makes a mention of the Margaret Hoover incident.  Again she repeats most of the information in CE 3067, and just her own speculation on Dr. Julio Fernandez, and short on evidence. Another opinion based article. 

If this is all Mr. DiEugenio has to offer as PROOF, then he has nothing of solid evidence to back this claim up in his Destiny Betrayed book. I still stand by my assertion, that he makes mention of this just to bolster his Rose Cheramie chapter, highly deceptive in my opinion. 

But apparently Mr. DiEugenio does not want to participate any further in this thread, because, according to him,  I have not done my homework. 

 

[Steve Roe]

On 5/13/2021 at 8:50 AM, Denny Zartman said:

How you YOU know for CERTAIN that Hoover and Kauffman were knowingly making false statements? Because the flyer couldn't be produced? Because the FBI wrote a memo considering and then declining prosecution solely because the criminals were too emotional? And you imply that James's evidence is thin?

Yes I am implying DiEugenio's evidence is thin. Stop and think about this incident. A 61 year old lady tells her brother about what she had, he goes to the Pennsylvania State Police, and they turn it over to the FBI. Then the FBI hears the claim, goes out to interview the lady and she had NOTHING to back it up, only her perceived recollection. What are they supposed to do? 

Now, DiEugenio made reference to Gary Schoener, who did go out and interview Ms. Hoover years later for Jim Garrison. That is true. But did you know that Schoener also made a tape recording of an interview with Ms. Hoover? A transcript was made by Schoener of that interview, Harold Weisberg has a copy of it. In that interview Ms. Hoover makes reference to some male individuals that visited Dr. Julio Fernandez and she described one man looking like.....you guessed it, Lee Oswald. Now, you find that credible? These are things Mr. DiEugenio either had no knowledge of, or if he did, neglected to tell the readers. 

Yes it's razor thin evidence. Let's put it another way, of all the conspiracy theories out there, this is one of the worst.  

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Great work Steve. DiEugenio's book is filled with stuff like this as Fred documents nearly every day at his blog.

Blog | On The Trail of Delusion

[Steve Roe]

On 5/13/2021 at 12:45 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

Steve Roe--

I welcome examination of evidence in the JFKA, and earnest civil debate. 

You did miss something in your brief dismissal of this strange episode.

If you go to this link, you will see WC document 3067

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/WH26_CE_3067.pdf

Next, go to the document number Pittsburgh 107-5070, dated 12/2/63, but evidently of an interview dated 11/28/63. The first words in the document "Mrs. MARGARET RAY KAUFFMAN."

So, on 11/28/63, Mrs. Hoover's daughter confirms that her memory also is that handwritten names of Oswald, Ruby, Rubenstein and words "Silver Slipper," or "Silver Bell" did appear on the back of the trailer advertisement. 

What is curious is how many people at that early date knew of Jack Ruby's connection to the Silver Spur club in Dallas? This is six days after the JFKA. 

Later, the woman's daughter, evidently in a second interview, recants her initial interview. But she cannot recant that she mentioned the name "Silver Slipper" or "Silver Bell" in her initial interview. 

BTW, the man in question, Fernandez, is interviewed by the FBI and he turns out to have been a prolific editor-founder-owner in Cuba, and owned many newspapers and magazines before the revolution, holds a "doctorate in political and economic science" and then was chased out by Castro. 

The FBI appears to have queried Fernandez closely about Castro-ties, but not ties to anti-Castro Cubans. That was the conventional thinking of the time.

Also note that FBI agents called the US Attorney's office to see if they would prosecute Hoover and her daughter under section 1001, Title 18. Hmmm. Recanting under pressure? The US Attorney's Office declined to prosecute. 

In conclusion, I would say this strange event is interesting, not conclusive. However, this event is hardly key to understanding the JFKA. 

Sure would be nice to know more about Fernandez. He obviously was not just some schlub. 

It goes without saying that the CIA has long been active in financing publications in Latin America. 

 

 

Yes, I did leave out all those details you mentioned as for keeping the post brief. That's why I linked the FBI report so folks can read it for themselves. Evidently that's what you did, and thanks for filling in the story. 

I do not disagree that the CIA had financed publications in Latin America. That can be proven. 

I agree, it's not conclusive. 

[Steve Roe]

13 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Great work Steve. DiEugenio's book is filled with stuff like this as Fred documents nearly every day at his blog.

Blog | On The Trail of Delusion

I agree Tracy, there are many instances of this in "Destiny Betrayed". 

[David G. Healy]

13 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Great work Steve. DiEugenio's book is filled with stuff like this as Fred documents nearly every day at his blog.

Blog | On The Trail of Delusion

sure hope the Garrison seekers have a fine payday. After 50 years the best they can do is "somebody told somebody something and somelse heard so-n-so tell someone..." Over and over and over again... B-O-R-I-N-G... the benchmark used here should be: would a Judge admit it?

[Steve Roe]

Before I go to the next topic in "Destiny Betrayed", I would like to remind everyone what Mr. DiEugenio wrote on this forum regarding his awesome reputation in book reviews.

"The reason I have the reputation I do is because when I review something I read the entire work.  I then criticize the work in detail and on many planes: What is the author's intent? How does he attempt to achieve that goal? What are the sources he uses?  How does he use them? Does he reveal all about those sources, and what does he hide if he does not?"  

I've given just one example how Mr. DiEugenio clearly did not reveal the whole story of Margaret Hoover to the reader in his book, "Destiny Betrayed". To the casual reader, one certainly would get the impression, written by Mr. DiEugenio, that the Rose Cheramie story of the Silver Slipper bar in Eunice and Dr. Julio Fernandez were linked together. 

Now, when someone else applies those standards to Mr. DiEugenio's own published work...…you get admonished. Obviously a double standard in my opinion. 

[Steve Roe]

In this passage from his book, DiEugenio attempts to misrepresent the General Walker spent bullet slug as a “Steel Jacketed 30.06”. He cites two references for this claim, the DPD Edwin Walker Case report by Detectives Van Cleeve and McElroy and a Dallas Times Herald article dated 12/7/63.

“And the exhibits produced by Ruth, almost by necessity, had to be dubious. As mentioned above, the FBI cut off Walker from all communications about their investigation. In fact, it appears that they also deliberately misinformed him. During his testimony, Wesley Liebeler showed Walker many photo exhibits. Near the end of his testimony Walker said that he had heard the FBI had matched up the bullet fired at him with the alleged Oswald rifle. 128 This last statement explains why, among all the photos shown to him, Walker was never shown the most important one of all: The bullet the FBI said they had matched up to Oswald’s rifle. For they were now saying that it was a 6.5 caliber, copper-jacketed bullet. One compatible with the alleged rifle in evidence. Yet, this was not the bullet the police retrieved from Walker’s house that night and Walker had held in his hand. That bullet was a 30.06, steel jacketed bullet. 129 As the reader can see, the combination of Ruth Paine with the FBI allowed the Warren Commission to manufacture a case that likely did not exist. As we will see, this will recur.” 

DiEugenio, James. Destiny Betrayed: JFK, Cuba, and the Garrison Case (p. 202). Skyhorse. Kindle Edition. 

The DPD case report does say, a “steel jacketed” bullet recovered, however it goes on to say of “unknown caliber”. Here is the link. https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338124/m1/11/?q=edwin walker

I do not have a copy of the Dallas Times Herald article, dated 12/7/63, however it’s irrelevant. Mr. DiEugenio is attempting to arouse suspicions again, that some sort of chain of custody hanky-panky was going on either with the DPD or FBI substituting this alleged “Steel Jacketed 30.06” with a 6.5 mm Copper Jacketed bullet, linking Oswald.

Now let’s get down to the bottom of this and examine the true facts.

Years ago, while the HSCA televised hearings were going on, General Walker wrote a letter to the HSCA complaining that the bullet recovered at his home, was not the bullet shown in the televised hearings. In that letter, he does not describe the bullet slug as a 30.06, only as in a mangled condition and not a pristine shape as depicted in the HSCA hearings. This Walker complaint letter was forwarded to Robert Keuch, special counsel to the Attorney General. As you will see in the following link, a representative of the National Archives took the Walker bullet (CE 573) to the FBI lab and it was examined in presence of the NA rep. It had the markings of Billy Norvell (the DPD officer who found the spent slug at the Walker home), Brown and Carl Day of DPD. It was still in the original DPD evidence container.

Read through the 3 pages of this document here. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10040&search=Norvell&fbclid=IwAR05KVkZzUqxPECmLfHXWRJHr6h6xY65QboE3EHWc49tkcZGQX911Txhd54#relPageId=9&search=Norvell

Mr. DiEugenio has again misrepresented the facts in “Destiny Betrayed”  in this topic of the Walker bullet.