Jump to content
The Education Forum

The 3 Carcanos


Recommended Posts

The 3 Carcanos
by Gil Jesus ( 2021 )

Much has been argued over the years about the rifle found in the Texas School Book Depository having belonged to the accused assassin of President John F. Kennedy, Lee Harvey Oswald. Most of the argument for is founded on the fact that the Depository rifle bore the serial number C2766 and a rifle with that same serial number was shipped to Oswald. It is also founded on the premise that the rifle was the only one produced with that serial number and no other rifle bore that number.

That, my friends, is not the case.

The government's own evidence proves that that is not the case. The government produced evidence that at least two 6.5 Mannlicher Carcanos, one a 36" Troop Special and the other a 40" Short Rifle had the same number. And a third ironically showed up some years later in a book authored by an author known to have supported the conclusion that Oswald was guilty.

Let's take the government's two C2766s first.

The first is the Depository rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository immediately after the shooting. It was a 40" Short Rifle bearing the serial number C2766.
Everyone can agree on that.

Then there's the 36" Troop Special that was allegedly ordered by Oswald from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago and shipped to "A.Hidell" at P.O. Box 2915 in Dallas, Texas. Waldman exhibit 7 is the shipping Bill of Lading that indicates that the rifle shipped was a 36" rifle bearing the serial number C2766.The red circle is the Klein's stock number for the rifle. The C20-T750 is for the 36" rifle with the scope mounted in-house. 

wald_ex_7.thumb.jpg.fc6b1bb41d82029320f9811c062376ef.jpg

 
The 40" rifle had a different stock number and (as the HSCA Hearings showed ) its scope was NOT mounted in house.

36_shipped.JPG.a8a2373388bfa6b046a8affe4359e222.JPG
 
The "Oswald did it" crowd will argue that Klein's simply ran out of 36" rifles and shipped the 40" rifles in their stead. In addition, they shipped it with a stock number that indicated it was a 36" rifle with a scope mounted in-house.

To that I say, show me the evidence to prove that.

If someone has evidence to prove that Klein's shipped a 40" rifle, stock number C20-750 and bearing serial number C2766 to Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas on March 20, 1963, please present it and I'll accept it. If anybody has ANY evidence that Klein's shipped a 40" rifle to ANYBODY who ordered a 36" rifle in the spring of 1963, I'd like to see it.

Otherwise, the evidence shows there were two 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcanos, one a 36" rifle, the other a 40" rifle with the same serial number, C2766.

But that's not all.

Warrennati apologist John Lattimer wrote in his book, Kennedy and Lincoln, on page 250, that he did some tests with a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano with the serial number C2766.
 Lattim1.jpg.fbbce367dbe97b6dd19db94ab9a4bf11.jpg
 That's three 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcanos with the serial number C2766.

CE 2562  is a January 1964 memo from FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover. On page 15 he is verifying the exact point I'm making: that there was more than one rifle with the same serial number.
hoover_same_serial.jpg.d7099194109c923e72872c41f6513be9.jpg

Edited by Gil Jesus
add picture
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 75
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

This is so important.  And Gil has done such good work on this issue that the other side hates him for it.

One of my many complaints about the first generation critics is that they accepted things that were really dubious.

For example, that Oswald was in Mexico City and did what the WC said he did.  We know now that that was not remotely accurate.

Same with the rifle.  Once you break this whole issue down into its evidentiary parts, all kinds of issues manifest themselves.

This serial number aspect is one of them.  I don't think there is any real question today that the FBI lied about this.  I also don't think there is any question that, at the very least, David Belin and LIebeler knew they were lying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Thank you all. I've had to take a hiatus from this debate because I lost my job in 2007 when Polaroid closed. Fortunately, I had the foresight to see it coming and I went out and got my CDL. So I've been doing trucking for the last 10 or 11 years and its left me with little time for anything else. I had to give up the website due to the cost, but I'm in the process of updating that info and I'll be reposting it here as time goes forward. Last month I retired from trucking and took up a job as a security guard so I'll have some time now to make the trolls blush. LOL Before he passed away, Tom Rossley left me with some words of wisdom that Harold Weisberg gave him, he said, "hit em with the evidence", so that's what I plan to do. Good seeing you all again and good to know you're still fighting the good fight for truth.

Edited by Gil Jesus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

Gil, great piece, I’m with you.

Do you think a Mauser was ever on site? Roger C was convinced and he seemed to be a good egg and  Seymour W agreed then didn’t….

 

Some time ago, I wrote something on the Mauser called, "In Defense of a Mauser". I went through the whole shabang and it was probably one of my better works, but when I came across where Roger Craig said the Mauser was found, it was exactly where the M-C rifle was found, so I wasn't completely convinced that those deputies were correct in their identification of the weapon. So, I'm sorry to say, I deleted it because I think there's a ton of evidence, including the witnesses' descriptions of the rifle they saw in the window and the discovery by Seymour Weitzman of an empty 7.65 shell in the bushes outside the TSBD, to say that the rifle that fired the shots was NOT the 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano, but rather a sporterized Argentine 7.65 Mauser.

Edited by Gil Jesus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

Do you think a Mauser was ever on site? Roger C was convinced and he seemed to be a good egg and  Seymour W agreed then didn’t….

Good to see you aren't fooled by those who sought to eliminate all traces of a conspiracy.

When Craig contacted Fritz that afternoon, and was invited by Fritz to his office to view the suspect, we can safely say that Fritz, at that point in time, was not adverse to exploring the possibility that Oswald was chauffeured from the scene. Fritz then passed the information to his boss, Curry, who then passed the information onto the press on Saturday.

Then the shift happened, no conspiracy please. Craig's visit with Fritz was downplayed, a bus transfer was 'found", etc. So we see Fritz then conforming to the no conspiracy storyline, and Roger Craig officially became a kook at 12:40pm Friday the 22nd.

So we had a 7.65 Mauser found near the stairs, and 3 spent shells that were discovered side by side, all pointing the same direction, on the Sniper Nest floor. All this before 1:06pm, which makes sense, as the rifle window was actually pointed out to Inspector Sawyer at approx 12:40/42pm. A shift then occurred, the spent shells scattered, and the Mauser became a Carcano.

The planners set the assassin patsy up with a weapon. Does anyone seriously think that they would originally set him up with a junk rifle like a Carcano with a mis-aligned scope? The introduction of the Carcano seems hasty and on the fly, but had to to be done. You just need to work out why.

Edited by Tony Krome
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Thank you all. I've had to take a hiatus from this debate because I lost my job in 2007 when Polaroid closed. Fortunately, I had the foresight to see it coming and I went out and got my CDL. So I've been doing trucking for the last 10 or 11 years and its left me with little time for anything else. I had to give up the website due to the cost, but I'm in the process of updating that info and I'll be reposting it here as time goes forward. Last month I retired from trucking and took up a job as a security guard so I'll have some time now to make the trolls blush. LOL Before he passed away, Tom Rossley left me with some words of wisdom that Harold Weisberg gave him, he said, "hit em with the evidence", so that's what I plan to do. Good seeing you all again and good to know you're still fighting the good fight for truth.

Gil Jesus--

I am just a fan of yours, we never even e-mailed, let alone met. I too retired recently and plan to "get into" the JFK scene, which I have wanted to do my whole life. 

However, some problems, and I am working again more than half time---so it goes. Plus now I live in SE Asia, where it is cheap to live. 

I did manage to review some Dallas Police Department files online, and discovered that the window pane that deflected the bullet aimed at Walker, actually deflected the the buller lower not higher and yet the bullet struck above Walker's head. Not only that, far from the bullet nearly striking him, Walker initially thought kids had tossed a firecracker into the room. I posted that in this forum. 

So the whole Walker assassination attempt looks more like a biography builder, rather than true hit attempt. 

On this matter you have brought to us today, I see a minor discrepancy. 

LHO indicates he enclosed $19.95, in the blue handwriting under the red letter "D."

The bill indicates $21.45 is due, or an additional $1.50 charge.  I can't read the print; I assume something about shipping or taxes, or postage. 

So, did Klein's just eat the shipping charges (remember, in 1963 you have multiply a dollar amounts by ten, due to inflation. $1.50 back then is like $15.00 today). 

Was it shipped COD on the $1.50? 

Or, was some of this paperwork was generated after the JFKA? 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Good to see you aren't fooled by those who sought to eliminate all traces of a conspiracy.

When Craig contacted Fritz that afternoon, and was invited by Fritz to his office to view the suspect, we can safely say that Fritz, at that point in time, was not adverse to exploring the possibility that Oswald was chauffeured from the scene. Fritz then passed the information to his boss, Curry, who then passed the information onto the press on Saturday.

Then the shift happened, no conspiracy please. Craig's visit with Fritz was downplayed, a bus transfer was 'found", etc. So we see Fritz then conforming to the no conspiracy storyline, and Roger Craig officially became a kook at 12:40pm Friday the 22nd.

So we had a 7.65 Mauser found near the stairs, and 3 spent shells that were discovered side by side, all pointing the same direction, on the Sniper Nest floor. All this before 1:06pm, which makes sense, as the rifle window was actually pointed out to Inspector Sawyer at approx 12:40/42pm. A shift then occurred, the spent shells scattered, and the Mauser became a Carcano.

The planners set the assassin patsy up with a weapon. Does anyone seriously think that they would originally set him up with a junk rifle like a Carcano with a mis-aligned scope? The introduction of the Carcano seems hasty and on the fly, but had to to be done. You just need to work out why.

JMO but I think the introduction of the Carcano was well planned in advance.  The whole staged purchase and non delivery after story is well researched  by David Josephs  on K &  K.  The gun was junk, it wasn't used, it was a plant to frame Oswald.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  

12 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

Gil, great piece, I’m with you.

Do you think a Mauser was ever on site? Roger C was convinced and he seemed to be a good egg and  Seymour W agreed then didn’t….

 

Not only Craig and Weitzman were talking about a Mauser. (Sad enough Weitzman in 1967 was brainwashed by CBS to "confess" on camera he never saw a Mauser ... )

Quote Garrison "On the trail of the assassins" :

"A great deal of confusion surrounded this second-rate Italian rifle because there was compelling evidence that it was not the weapon found in the assassin’s lair shortly after the assassination. Officer Seymour Weitzman, part of the Dallas police search team, later described the discovery of the rifle on the afternoon of November 22. He stated that it had been so well hidden under boxes of books that the officers stumbled over it many times before they found it. Officer Weitzman, who had an engineering degree and also operated a sporting goods store, was recognized as an
authority on weapons. Consequently, Dallas Homicide Chief Will Fritz, who was on the scene, asked him the make of the rifle. Weitzman identified it as a 7.65 Mauser, a highly accurate German-made weapon. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig was also there and later recalled the word “Mauser” inscribed in the metal of the gun. And Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone executed a sworn affidavit in which he described the rifle as a Mauser. As late as midnight of November 22, Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade told the media that the weapon found was a Mauser."

Close Quote

At the very time Kennedys manipulative autopsy in the Bethesda-morgue was closed and Oswald was officially accused of killing Kennedy (shortly after the midnight conference  22.11.1963) the Mauser which was in Wades office that Friday, became a Carcano ... and not just one Carcano, as Gil Jesus points out, but three ... 

 

Edited by Karl Kinaski
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

So we had a 7.65 Mauser found near the stairs, and 3 spent shells that were discovered side by side, all pointing the same direction, on the Sniper Nest floor. All this before 1:06pm, which makes sense, as the rifle window was actually pointed out to Inspector Sawyer at approx 12:40/42pm. A shift then occurred, the spent shells scattered, and the Mauser became a Carcano.

The introduction of the Carcano seems hasty and on the fly, but had to to be done. You just need to work out why.

Tony,

I personally think that somebody screwed up and planted the wrong kind of shells. The shells were discovered, photographed. bagged and tagged and entered into evidence at 1:06.

The rifle wasn't entered into evidence until 1:22. They had to make the rifle fit the shells.

Steve Thomas

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just in passing, I remember reading some years ago that Weitzman's  daughter said that he believed for the remainder of his life that it was a Mauser not a Mannlicher that was found. Sorry can't remember where I read it, but it is on line somewhere. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

 So, I'm sorry to say, I deleted it because I think there's a ton of evidence, including the witnesses' descriptions of the rifle they saw in the window and the discovery by Seymour Weitzman of an empty 7.65 shell in the bushes outside the TSBD, to say that the rifle that fired the shots was NOT the 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano, but rather a sporterized Argentine 7.65 Mauser.

Could you provide more information or some source that mentioned this 7.65mm Mauser shell in the bushes at the TSBD?  I'm interested in the location of the bushes.  South facing: east side of the TSBD or west Side.   Or, perhaps the north face?  East face?  West face?

Sorry, to ask the question seeing that 2007 is a long time ago.  But, Thanks anyway. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gil

Your work on the rifle is excellent; its informed me immensely about this key aspect of the JFK murder and setup.  The unique serial number story is obviously disinformation, and one more reason to seriously doubt the provenance of the weapon.  I want to share some trivia, about the following, as I live near Perkasie PA and my friend and I travelled down the aforementioned Mink Road last week, looking for where this Fred Rupp RFD 2 address might be.  I told him that his town was a part of the JFK story, and he was fascinated.  Its a small part of the story, but pretty interesting that it found its way through my neighborhood:

"Periodically, Fred Rupp, RFD 2, Mink Road, Perkasie, Pennsylvania, picked up loads of 91's from Harborside Terminal. He brought them to his shop where, under a subcontract with Crescent Firearms, he would clean and test fire each weapon, then ship it from his place to various customers designated to him by Crescent. If a carton was mutilated, he would repack the weapons in a new carton after cleaning and test firing them. The new carton would be numbered by him with the same number as appeared on the original carton picked up from Harborside. If a particular gun did not function properly, he would replace it with another, and he would indicate on the slip the serial number of the weapon removed and the weapon substituted."

On February 12th 1963, Fred Rupp dispatched carton no. 3376, said to contain C2766, via North Penn Transfer Company against Crescent Firearms order no. 3178 to Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago. If the record is to be believed, then Klein's took delivery of Mannlicher Carcano serial no. C2766, allegedly one of a very few rifles out of a total of 150,000 repaired and renovated by Luciano Riva that did not have its identifying marks removed.  Luciano Riva allegedly failed to ensure that all identifying marks were removed from a small number of Carcano rifles.

Gene

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...