TSBD employees

[Jamey Flanagan]

I'm interested in hearing whether anyone has ever heard any secondhand stories of what some of these employees may have told their close friends and family privately concerning the assassination. In particular the three amigos watching from the 5th floor. Is anyone aware of any interviews conducted with any close friends or family members of these three individuals since the assassination occurred? I'm interested in what they told people privately and confidentially. Because we all know their stories changed more than most people changed their underwear, lol! They were obviously coerced into telling the story that the people involved in the cover-up wanted out there, and it was an ever evolving, constantly changing narrative. Being people of color in the racial climate of the south in the 1960's I'm sure these men were frightened to death of repercussions to them and/or their families if they did not comply. I would've done the same thing in their shoes. But I'm pretty sure that privately they told someone what actually happened. A wife, a close friend, their minister.....somebody out there has heard a very different story than the "official" account I'm sure. As long as I've researched this case though I can't recall ever hearing an account of one of those individuals telling a different story to a family member. Anyone else ever hear one? You'd think with so many years gone by you'd hear something from a grandchild maybe. 

[Tony Krome]

8 hours ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

the three amigos watching from the 5th floor

Harold Norman in the mock courtroom trial was twice asked if he thought there was an armed man upstairs. He answered only that he thought there was a man upstairs.

Harold Norman, at the HSCA, repeated what he heard from his location on the 5th floor;

He told CBS exactly the same thing.

The problem is that the Carcano was loaded when found. The final loading of that bullet required an additional "clack-clack" working of the bolt. Norman should have heard that, and he would have, at the time, expected another boom. Norman made no mention of that expectation.

The first BOOM;

I remember one time when we were out shooting. We were on the back of a ute (pick-up) with high-powered rifles. We just got underway, and I was looking into the bush for a target. Unbeknown to me, one of the guys behind me handed a rifle to another guy, and the recipient grabbed it by the trigger and the rifle fired. The unexpected noise was tremendous and I damn near jumped from the ute. The rule of thumb is that you give everyone the heads up if you're about to start shooting to avoid scaring the crap out of everybody. Norman, in fact all three amigos on the 5th floor, should have jumped out of their skins at the sound of that unexpected explosion just 10 or so feet above them. Yet we note that Norman was so collected, he was able to recount the sounds of explosions, the sounds of the bolt actions, and the sounds of shells hitting the floor.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice where did you think the shots came from? 
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot-I really did not pay any attention to it

haha, yeah right!

[Ron Bulman]

32 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Harold Norman in the mock courtroom trial was twice asked if he thought there was an armed man upstairs. He answered only that he thought there was a man upstairs.

Harold Norman, at the HSCA, repeated what he heard from his location on the 5th floor;

He told CBS exactly the same thing.

The problem is that the Carcano was loaded when found. The final loading of that bullet required an additional "clack-clack" working of the bolt. Norman should have heard that, and he would have, at the time, expected another boom. Norman made no mention of that expectation.

The first BOOM;

I remember one time when we were out shooting. We were on the back of a ute (pick-up) with high-powered rifles. We just got underway, and I was looking into the bush for a target. Unbeknown to me, one of the guys behind me handed a rifle to another guy, and the recipient grabbed it by the trigger and the rifle fired. The unexpected noise was tremendous and I damn near jumped from the ute. The rule of thumb is that you give everyone the heads up if you're about to start shooting to avoid scaring the crap out of everybody. Norman, in fact all three amigos on the 5th floor, should have jumped out of their skins at the sound of that unexpected explosion just 10 or so feet above them. Yet we note that Norman was so collected, he was able to recount the sounds of explosions, the sounds of the bolt actions, and the sounds of shells hitting the floor.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice where did you think the shots came from? 
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot-I really did not pay any attention to it

haha, yeah right!

"Well yeah, how could I Not notice it, it came from right over my head." per the the Jarman, Norman, Williams WC story of what they heard.

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

Harold Norman in the mock courtroom trial was twice asked if he thought there was an armed man upstairs. He answered only that he thought there was a man upstairs.

Harold Norman, at the HSCA, repeated what he heard from his location on the 5th floor;

He told CBS exactly the same thing.

The problem is that the Carcano was loaded when found. The final loading of that bullet required an additional "clack-clack" working of the bolt. Norman should have heard that, and he would have, at the time, expected another boom. Norman made no mention of that expectation.

The first BOOM;

I remember one time when we were out shooting. We were on the back of a ute (pick-up) with high-powered rifles. We just got underway, and I was looking into the bush for a target. Unbeknown to me, one of the guys behind me handed a rifle to another guy, and the recipient grabbed it by the trigger and the rifle fired. The unexpected noise was tremendous and I damn near jumped from the ute. The rule of thumb is that you give everyone the heads up if you're about to start shooting to avoid scaring the crap out of everybody. Norman, in fact all three amigos on the 5th floor, should have jumped out of their skins at the sound of that unexpected explosion just 10 or so feet above them. Yet we note that Norman was so collected, he was able to recount the sounds of explosions, the sounds of the bolt actions, and the sounds of shells hitting the floor.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice where did you think the shots came from? 
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot-I really did not pay any attention to it

haha, yeah right!

"Unbeknown to me, one of the guys behind me handed a rifle to another guy, and the recipient grabbed it by the trigger and the rifle fired. The unexpected noise was tremendous and I damn near jumped from the ute."--Tony K.

A hunting party with Dick Cheney? 

[Tony Krome]

On 6/30/2021 at 12:51 PM, Benjamin Cole said:

A hunting party with Dick Cheney?

Now thats one guy I wouldn't take out shooting. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Tony Krome

[Jamey Flanagan]

I posted this a couple of years ago about something I ran across on the Mary Ferrell site concerning Charles Givens:

This is from the Mary Ferrell website:

A witness to Given’s statement was a secret service agent named Mike Howard. Howard related his account to Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter, Thayer Waldo, on 9 February 1964, apparently unaware that Waldo was a newsman. According to Waldo,

"Mike Howard then explained that the negro witness had been arrested in the past by the Special Services office of the Dallas Police for gambling; and, since he was familiar with that branch of the Dallas Police, he immediately gave himself up to that branch. Mr. Howard alleged that he had visited the negro witness while he was in custody of the Special Services in the Dallas Jail."

Waldo quotes Agent Howard as saying,

"Wait till that old black boy gets up in front of the Warren Commission and tells his story. That will settle everything. Yes, sir. He was right there on the same floor, looking out the next window; and, after the first shot, he looked and saw Oswald, and then he ran. I saw him in the Dallas Police station. He was still the scaredest n***** I ever seen. I heard him tell the officer, "Man you don't know how fast fast is, because you didn't see me run that day." He said he ran and hid behind the boxes because he was afraid that Oswald would shoot him." (CE 2516

[Tony Krome]

37 minutes ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

I posted this a couple of years ago about something I ran across on the Mary Ferrell site concerning Charles Givens:

This is from the Mary Ferrell website:

A witness to Given’s statement was a secret service agent named Mike Howard. Howard related his account to Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter, Thayer Waldo, on 9 February 1964, apparently unaware that Waldo was a newsman. According to Waldo,

"Mike Howard then explained that the negro witness had been arrested in the past by the Special Services office of the Dallas Police for gambling; and, since he was familiar with that branch of the Dallas Police, he immediately gave himself up to that branch. Mr. Howard alleged that he had visited the negro witness while he was in custody of the Special Services in the Dallas Jail."

Waldo quotes Agent Howard as saying,

"Wait till that old black boy gets up in front of the Warren Commission and tells his story. That will settle everything. Yes, sir. He was right there on the same floor, looking out the next window; and, after the first shot, he looked and saw Oswald, and then he ran. I saw him in the Dallas Police station. He was still the scaredest n***** I ever seen. I heard him tell the officer, "Man you don't know how fast fast is, because you didn't see me run that day." He said he ran and hid behind the boxes because he was afraid that Oswald would shoot him." (CE 2516

After publication, the "source" contacted Waldo with revisions. The negro was on the 5th floor, not the 6th. 

 

[Jamey Flanagan]

I almost think that the TSBD was a front to some degree, kinda like the Reilly Coffee Company. Where they would hire people involved in intelligence operations and give them bogus jobs. Not saying every employee was involved in intelligence by any means just maybe a select few other than Oswald. Not sure exactly who but some of the management there like Shelley, Truly and the like seem kinda suspect sometimes.

[John Butler]

12 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

The problem is that the Carcano was loaded when found. The final loading of that bullet required an additional "clack-clack" working of the bolt. Norman should have heard that, and he would have, at the time, expected another boom. Norman made no mention of that expectation.

Exactly.  It points to the fact that his account of the shooting is imaginary.

12 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Norman, in fact all three amigos on the 5th floor, should have jumped out of their skins at the sound of that unexpected explosion just 10 or so feet above them. Yet we note that Norman was so collected, he was able to recount the sounds of explosions, the sounds of the bolt actions, and the sounds of shells hitting the floor.

 

12 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

 

Another good point.  10 feet above them has the same sound, it might be just a tad reduced, but not significantly, for folks on the 4th and 3rd floors, at most 40 feet away.  About 10 witnesses on the 4th and 3rd said shooting came from some place, generally to the west, and not from the building.  According to their testimony, there was no shooting from the 6th floor.  Read Bonny Williams testimony.  He had to make 4 statements to get it right.  Junior Jarman changed his testimony to shooting to below and to the left.  Only Norman stuck to his testimony.  

[John Butler]

49 minutes ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

I almost think that the TSBD was a front to some degree, kinda like the Reilly Coffee Company. Where they would hire people involved in intelligence operations and give them bogus jobs. Not saying every employee was involved in intelligence by any means just maybe a select few other than Oswald. Not sure exactly who but some of the management there like Shelley, Truly and the like seem kinda suspect sometimes.

William Weston's The Spider's Web says basically the same thing.  Drugs, gun running, and intelligence operations at the TSBD.

[Steve Thomas]

23 hours ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

I'm interested in hearing whether anyone has ever heard any secondhand stories of what some of these employees may have told their close friends and family privately concerning the assassination.

Jamey,

I have often thought that there is an untapped goldmine of research to be found in the African-American newspapers that were published in Dallas in that time period. Being so small, these are unlikely to have been indexed, or digitized. Perhaps these could be a research assignment for some grad student. If a person were to go looking for anecdotal evidence of what various black people experienced that day, I'll be you would find a bunch there.

Here's a listing of some:

List of African-American newspapers in Texas

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African-American_newspapers_in_Texas

(sorry for the format, these were copied in table form. The numbers are footnoted references in the Wikipedia article)

Dallas

The Dallas Express

1893[35]

1970[35]

Weekly[35]

Dallas

Dallas Gazette

1913?[36]

? [36]

Weekly[36]

Dallas

In Sepia

1959?[38]

? [38]

Weekly[38]

Dallas

The Item

1891[40]

1900[40]

Weekly[40]

Dallas

The Key News

1962[41]

? [41]

Weekly[41]

Dallas

The Dallas Weekly

1954[54]

current

Weekly[54]

 

 

 

[Bill Fite]

I've always wondered about the 2 men LHO said were in the lunch room when he was eating his lunch there.  Did they ever say anything one way or another?

[John Butler]

On 6/29/2021 at 12:30 PM, Jamey Flanagan said:

I'm interested in hearing whether anyone has ever heard any secondhand stories of what some of these employees may have told their close friends and family privately concerning the assassination. In particular the three amigos watching from the 5th floor. Is anyone aware of any interviews conducted with any close friends or family members of these three individuals since the assassination occurred? I'm interested in what they told people privately and confidentially. Because we all know their stories changed more than most people changed their underwear, lol! They were obviously coerced into telling the story that the people involved in the cover-up wanted out there, and it was an ever evolving, constantly changing narrative. Being people of color in the racial climate of the south in the 1960's I'm sure these men were frightened to death of repercussions to them and/or their families if they did not comply. I would've done the same thing in their shoes. But I'm pretty sure that privately they told someone what actually happened. A wife, a close friend, their minister.....somebody out there has heard a very different story than the "official" account I'm sure. As long as I've researched this case though I can't recall ever hearing an account of one of those individuals telling a different story to a family member. Anyone else ever hear one? You'd think with so many years gone by you'd hear something from a grandchild maybe. 

The only thing I recall is Amos Euins father said something like you can't trust anything that boy says.

[Jamey Flanagan]

Anybody else find Jack Daugherty's movements just before and just after the assassination worthy of at least intense scrutiny? I could be wrong, but if I recall correctly he was kinda nowhere to be found just before the shots. I believe he said he was on the 5th floor at the time of the assassination but the three amigos never saw or heard him up there. I know there are big stacks of boxes all around so he very well could have been on the same floor but not seen. But you'd think you'd hear something if somebody else was up there. The doors on both elevators were shut if what I read in Harvey And Lee is correct but they would not come down when called because the power being off to them. While Truly and Baker are running up the stairs one of those elevators go down from the 5th floor. But after Baker and Truly went to the roof and were working their way back down I think I remember reading that they spotted him on the 5th floor again filling orders. All this could be totally innocent but probably deserves some scrutiny. I just wonder if he has any intelligence connections.

[Jamey Flanagan]

Found this on an older thread on a search:

Precisely how and when did Jack Daugherty - hard at work, getting stock, supposedly - descend from the 5th floor to the first (and then asked either Charles Givens or Eddie Piper about the “loud noise”)?

I have always wondered about Daugherty’s rapid descent - did he actually run down the stairs unseen or heard by anyone?

Or, did he take the 5th floor west freight elevator down as Truly and Baker came up?

Or, was Jack Daugherty actually Marion Baker’s first-day affidavit suspect, encountered on third or fourth floor, walking away from the stairs, and (correctly) vouched for as a TSBD employee by Truly to Baker?

If so, then was this (possible/probable) encounter with Jack Daugherty that later that night morphed into Truly’s Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom story to the FBI?

Or, did Daugherty accompany anyone down on the west freight elevator to the first floor, say from the 5th or . . .6th floor?

My point is that any speculation about using the west freight elevator as an escape route for conspirators ought to consider Jack Daugherty’s mysterious descent at that very time.